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I know I am preaching to the choir here, but I would love to whinge to sympathetic audience.
I just picked up a TI83, new, at a less than half of the MSRP. I got it for my partner, who is upgrading some highschool math so she can assail a nursing statistics course that is bedevilling her. The TI83 is the required calculator--this is something one oft hears these days in high school and college math courses.
After about an hour of playing with the thing, I am shaking my head with the dismay that only an effete HP snob can truly know. The unit seems cheap and flimsy, the keys rattly without any of that comforting HP resistance to them, and the keypad and menu system are downright inscrutable. On top of all this, the presence of an ENTER key that really should be an equals key is totally disorienting. I tell you, whoever puts an ENTER key on an algebraic entry calculator should be unceremoniously shot at dawn.
I know that TI calcs are wildly popular and that they seem to have the educational market cornered--indeed, I got my HP48G a few years ago from an engineering student who had to switch to a TI to keep up in the calculus courses. I hope my partner, who can't figure out RPN, gets good use out of it, since I don't have much more time for this turkey. I am glad I got it cheap, and it seems to be fully functional, though I think I may have inadvertently deleted one or two of the pre-loaded apps in my effort to do a factory reset.
Which leads me to a request for a history lesson: why did hp get out of the advanced calc business, and why, oh why, is TI in ascendency with a comparatively inferior product?
Thank you for letting me vent. This purchase was supposed to be a partial consolation prize for overpaying on that HP42S, but its not been the most satisfying eBay karma.
Les
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Don't worry Lez. One never pays too much for a HP, only for a TI. LOL
Paul
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Why is TI in ascendancy?
Back in the 1980's TI decided to pursue the secondary school and non-engineering college level educational market. They paid a lot of attention to high school math teachers. For whatever reason HP chose to stay with the smaller engineering/scientific market. I suspect that it was a marketing decision because HP felt they understood the engineering market but didn't understand the secondary school market. But, how many engineering students are there in a given year? How many secondary school math students are there? Which market will yield the production base to support new products?
Some other things are going on at the present time as indicated by previous threads about Wal-Mart supposedly abandoning the calculator market. I agreed with that idea a month ago when the local Wal-Mart in Brevard, NC moved ALL calculators outside the electronics area and onto a clearance rack. The big TI display which had dominated the Wal-Mart calculator sales effort had disappeared. Today I was back in that same store hoping to pick up a spare 33s at clearance price. No such luck. There was a new calculator display inside the electronics area offering the TI-30XA, the TI-34II, the TI-83+, the TI-84+, several Casios, and some new off brand, low cost calculators including a 20 dollar graphic calculator but no HP's. The clearance rack was still there. There were two hp 33s calculators with the bad decimal points for sale at 41 dollars. No, thank you. There were no hp 10B-II's in the store. There were also TI-86's and TI-89's on the clearance rack, and there were no spots for those units in the display in the electronics area.
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You wrote:
"... the presence of an ENTER key that really should be an equals key is totally disorienting. I tell you, whoever puts an ENTER key on an algebraic entry calculator should be unceremoniously shot at dawn. "
Have you tried reading the manual rather than just playing with the calculator? If you will you will find that the TI graphic calculators all use an Equation Operating System (E.O.S.) not an Algebraic Operating System (A.O.S.) like that used in older TI machines. Many hard line A.O.S. people really fussed over the introduction of E.O.S. before they realized that E.O.S. is a higher order language. The E.O.S/A.O.S. fuss that occurred in the TI community is akin to the continuing fuss in the HP community over RPL versus RPN and is somewhat like the resistance of the FORTRAN community to the introuction of structured programming.
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I was partaking of a little humourous hyperbole.
The entry system isn't as baffling as I originally suggesting. Just a bit peculiar after finding RPN so natural. Also, as for the RPL/RPN debate, I have managed to port a couple of small Numerical Recipes programs into RPL on my HP48G, so I have no problem seeing the merits of RPL. Actually, I get totally lost trying to back-engineer HP41 programs without benefit of accompanying documentation.
I think we will get our money's worth out of this TI, but this doesn't diminish my preference for HPs.
Les
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Quote:
... is somewhat like the resistance of the FORTRAN community to the introduction of structured programming.
Palmer --
I was a programmer/analyst in the late 1980's, working with Fortran applications on mainframes when the emphasis on structured programming concepts was being instituted at my organization. We adopted software standards to codify the requirements, which I helped to enforce.
I did not sense resistance to adoption of structured programming techniques per se, nor did I hear opinions expressed that the techniques were not well-suited to Fortran. Well-structured Fortran programs could certainly be written that were easier to follow and maintain than "spaghetti code". A few of the necessary constructs were not present in the 1977 ANSI Fortran standard, and had to be emulated with judicious GOTO's.
-- KS
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I remember some resistance to moving to structured programming. As an example, I offer some quotes from a long tongue-in-cheek (I think) article "Real Programmers Don't Eat Quiche" which was published in the Computer Bargain Guide sometime in the early 1980's.
"Back in the good old days -- the "Golden Era" of computers -- it was easy to separate the men from the boys (sometimes called "Real Men" and "Quiche Eaters" in the literature). During this period, the Real Men were the ones that understood computer programming, and the Quiche Eaters were the ones that didn't. A real computer programmer said things like "DO 10 I,10" and "ABEND" (they actually talked in capital letters, you understand) and the rest of the world said things like "computers are too complicated for me" ..."
"The easiest way to tell a Real Progrsammer from the crowd is by the programming language he (or she) uses. Real Programmers use FORTRAN. Quiche Eaters use PASCAL.
* Real Programmers don't wear neckties.
* Real Programmers don't wear high-heeled shoes.
* Real Programmers survive on Twinkies and coffee."
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Quote:
(they actually talked in capital letters, you understand)
With the advent of C, lowercase has become an option if properly decorated: &(*x()[])
Marcus
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Real Programmers don't eat quiche. Not because quiche isn't manly, but because quiche doesn't come from vending machines, while Twinkies and Coke do. If quiche came from vending machines, Real Programmers would eat it.
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I wouldn't know about Real Programmers, but I figure that Real Men eat whatever they damn well feel like eating.
Just out of curiousity, just what the heck is quiche anyway? I checked my dictionary, but it's not listed.
To me, Coke tastes like medicine. I'll stick with plain old black coffee, and lots of it.
Regards, James
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Quote:
Just out of curiousity, just what the heck is quiche anyway? I checked my dictionary, but it's not listed.
---------------------------------------------
quiche [keesh] (plural quiches) noun
savoury tart: a savoury tart filled with an egg-and-cream mixture and various meat or vegetable ingredients
[Mid-20th century. Via French, from German dialect Küche, ‘small cake’, from German Kuchen, ‘cake’ (see CAKE).]
Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999, 2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for
Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
---------------------------------------------
HTH
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I've known a few savoury tarts.
Regards, James
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Hi, Gerson, you get a chance to correct a typo in Encarta. It should read:
... dialect Küchle, 'small ...
I live in that "Küchle"-area. I do not know whether you'll get a reward or get hurt. In the first case you may share it ;)
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Hi Walter,
Thanks! Actually, I don't like that Encarta Dictionary so much. Mine is the British edition and came with the Encarta 2001 set. I prefer Merriam Webster's but I have only the printed edition. Perhaps you find its definition more accurate:
quiche \'keesh\ n [F, fr. F dial. (Lorraine)] (1941) : un unsweetened custard pie usually having a savory filling (as spinach, mushrooms, or ham).
Too bad I must avoid this kind of food for the while :(
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Hi Gerson, how are you!
Because I love the topics of this thread (quiche & programmers), I'll chime in with my 0,013 eurocents :-)
Whereas "quiche" does come from the German word "Küche", as long as we use the french spelling, the true original receipt is indeed "Quiche Lorraine" as described HERE.
This original receipt has certainly no spinach or mushrooms in it and that's why I was prompted to reply!!
From this original receipt, inventive chefs derived quiche subproducts by adding various components.
Just like Hp did by adding symbolic calculations in the Hp-28/48: fun but useless :-)
Friendly regards from France!
Etienne
Edited: 3 June 2006, 3:10 a.m.
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Bonjour Etienne,
encore une fois: AFAIK "Quiche" comes from "KüchLe" (= petite tarte), not "Küche" (= cuisine). Anyway, thanks for the photo! Becoming hungry, will leave for a nice meal... :)
Best regards
Walter
Edited: 3 June 2006, 7:53 a.m.
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Hi,
The original receipe vary from landlady to landlady. However, it seems to be a consensus on agg, milk and chopped bacon (lardons).
It's easy to vary this pie and the quiche has been much fashionnable a decade ago, including goat cheese and spinach, salmon, mushrooms, in other words, anything you find.
Finally the cehfsimon site, where the picture comes from, is one of the best on cooking and cooking techniques one can find on the web.
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Quote:
I wouldn't know about Real Programmers, but I figure that Real Men eat whatever they damn well feel like eating.
As long as someone else makes it for them. When they had to make it for themselves, all the Real Men I've ever known survived on cigarettes and toast.
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Quote:
but I figure that Real Men eat whatever they damn well feel like eating.
Certainly real men eat anythinng they want. But "Real Men" is a stereotype referring to super-macho men, and quiche isn't considered macho.
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It is when you make it with Habaneros...
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Quote:
(they actually talked in capital letters, you understand)
Well, as I recall, the 64-character Hollerith code doesn't have lower-case letters, so they had to talk in all capitals.
Regards, James
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Quote:
A real computer programmer said things like "DO 10 I,10"
Bah! A real computer programmer would not use those pansy-ass spaces. He'd write "DO10I=1,10" and if a space probe crashed because some keypunch clerk reading the program sheet entered "DO10I=1.10" instead, that's the clerk's fault.
Actually, a real computer programmer would write in assembly language. Or binary.
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Quote:
Actually, a real computer programmer would write in assembly language. Or binary.
A real programmer would key in his program on the front panel.
I miss computers with front panels and blinking lights. Real computers have a "battle short" switch.
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This reminds me of those recent personal computers with no physical switch for mains power, but only a press button to "ask the OS to please please shut down".
BWAAAaahhahahhahh !! As long as this stuff needs power, I'll rip the plug from the wall with my big boots whenever **I** want to shut down. Software obeys hardware (this includes me).
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I wholeheartedly AGREE!!!
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Quote:
I'll rip the plug from the wall with my big boots whenever **I** want to shut down.
Sure. Just don't be surprised when that causes you to lose some data due to the OS having filesystem data cached in memory and not yet written to disk.
The "ask the OS to shutdown" button is supposed to be a feature, not an annoyance. Back in the Windows 95/98 days there were nasty bugs in the OS and device drivers that would prevent the system from shutting down properly, but more recent versions of Windows (e.g., 2000, XP) don't have that problem. (Nor does Linux.)
Obviously if the system doesn't shut down properly when you ask it nicely, it then makes sense to pull the plug or hit the reset switch. But I wouldn't recommend getting into the habit of doing that unnecessarily, just to prove that you're the master of the machine.
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I am sure GE knows the consequenses of his rash statement but in light of the topic, his solution is definitly in line with the discussion. I envision HAL behaving a bit better with GE on board.
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Quote:
I envision HAL behaving a bit better with GE on board.
HAL would have well taken care of his power supply. "GE, what are you going to do? Do you know I was designed boot-proof? ... You endanger the project ..."
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IBM mainframes had a knob you could pull which dragged a knife across the power cable. When your machine got all uppity on you, you could show it who was really in charge.
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Ooooh, this is a typical US-American solution: primitive, but working inevitably. All fuses blown, power cable needs replacement. Who was in charge did cause a discharge! Why not use an axe?
BTW this "solution" reminds me of an experience in a manufacturing site in Spartanburg, SC, in the mid eighties: there was an operator feeding a press wherein some sheet metal parts were clamped. To start the machine action, there was *one* big button to press. And now the health and safety measure: when the press moved down, it pulled a string attached to it, running over a roller and ending in a wristband -- so the operator's hand was dragged away from the danger. If I hadn't seen it myself, I wouldn't have believed it.
For better understanding: That was exactly the time of the Pershing rockets to be stationed in the Fulda Gap in old Central Europe. Needless to say this experience lifted my confidence into American technology to a very high level. An excited level as it is called in atomic and nuclear physics. Duck and cover ...
Edited: 4 June 2006, 11:46 a.m.
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David Smith wrote:
> IBM mainframes had a knob you could pull [...]
You can see it in this picture:
its the round red button near the top right-hand corner.
It is labeled "Emergency Stop" and if you did pull it, you had to call IBM tech support to bring the system back to life.
**vp
PS if you are wondering about buying a mainframe front panel, this one was sold for $10999 !!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065
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re: "It is labeled "Emergency Stop" and if you did pull it, you had to call IBM tech support to bring the system back to life."
This was deliberate on IBM's part: They wanted to know WHY you had to resort to such drastic measures!
Once upon a time, one of the astronomers where I worked decided to pull that knob, just to see what would happen (the red know was SO inviting, and even us astronomers were allowed in the machine room). Of course, IBM had to come to start things back up, and everybody else was at least somewhat inconvenienced. Forever after, that button was relabelled (with a sticky note): "Barry, NO!"
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Dave Shaffer wrote:
> This was deliberate on IBM's part: They wanted to know WHY you had
> to resort to such drastic measures!
Actually it was because they wanted to make sure that the system was checked our correctly before being brough back up. "Emergency Stop" removed power to everything, so you needed to check that things like disk drive heads were properly stowed, water cooling pumps properly reset, etc before applying power.
Also remember that mainframes were running all the time, so local staff may not have been fluent with proper power up procedures. I remember in one such system (a System 370 back in 1978) where the senior people had a small conference before rebooting the system, and one person with her finger over the IPL button on the console, waiting for the final go-ahead). Things were reliable back then, not the crap we are used to today.
**vp
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...and bits;-)
Ok, not grammatically and/or syntactically correct,
however this came into my mind just at this moment...
Raymond
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Les --
I just bought a used TI-82 from the early 1990's at a reasonable price from a local reseller. I have tested the top-end TI-89 and TI-86 in stores, where they are still available new. I don't like them well enough to pay those prices of well over US$100 each (although I'm sure a better deal can be found on eBay.)
The TI-89 has a high-res dot-matrix LCD; its input line is so small, that I'll probably need reading glasses in a few years to see it.
It will be interesting to understand how the functionality was implemented on the TI-82, although there's no calculus or complex-number commands. As far as user-friendliness, it's hard to do worse than the HP-49G -- or even the HP-48 series, for that matter...
-- KS
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Quote:
and why, oh why, is TI in ascendency with a comparatively inferior product?
Because the calculator actually isn't the product!
If you look at TI's Internet pages, you'll find a lot of information and products (mostly for free or quite cheap) to support their offerings for teachers and students. And the machines are well suited not only for math but for natural science as well if you add the CBL/CBR devices. (I own both: It's pure fun to play around with them!)
And, as a student, you can always pretend doing serious work while actually playing a game on the machine. There is a vivid community (www.ticalc.org) which seems to be specialized in everything but math homework ;-)
Marcus
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About TI Games, students can play games - that is if the student is fortunate to play games until the calculator crashes after ten or so times. Plus every game takes almost all the memory.
The number of the games far out number the math programs.
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Screw TI... I'm all for HP!
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One thing I have to credit TI with is making a calculator (The 83) that is impossible to kill. I have seen these things dropped, thrown at walls, crushed by textbooks, and any time of abuse you can subject a calculator to. I have never seen one break.
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I remember when HP advertised one of its calcs was run over by a truck and it still worked! The ad may have included a photo.
tm
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Quote:
I remember when HP advertised one of its calcs was run over by a truck and it still worked! The ad may have included a photo.
tm
In the Digest Vol.3 (1977) (it's on the museum's CD set) a reader is telling us about his HP-25 run over by a Ford Gran Torino.
It wasn't harmed in any way. Nor was his 25.
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Quote:
It wasn't harmed in any way. Nor was his 25.
Very good English Humour...
- Antonio
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Another thing going for the 83+ is how easy it is to program. Few control structures, all ended by the same keyword "End" (no guessing), simple syntax with free format statements, going from one on a line to all crammed using ":" separators, no syntax check (you can have cruft accumulated in unused parts of your program), no "flamethrower" reformatting, many menus with few depth levels, GOTO...
Mathematically this is no wizard, the function set is quite limited (no MOD function for instance), only 26 variables, and the RAM is still 24K (in the 21st century !!! But remember only old fools (found here) still program on their calculators), speed could be better (the 83+SE is nice, but less stable software wise).
Ease Of Use is the key.
So the 83 is a good deal for the money, but I don't use one.
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Many of the TI-83, 84 were bought because were required items. Many were not used. After the classes got done they got sold for cheap. That only hurts Coburlin and not TI.
Edited: 1 June 2006, 3:21 p.m.
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