Non-graphic calculator



#5

I spent 2 hrs on the internet to search for a new scientific calc.(non-graphic). I tried to compare the (TI, Casio, Canon, HP)specifation but too complicated.

I need it to use in my Grade 10 Maths class. Please gimme some recommendation.


#6

If you are looking for a current HP model, then the HP 33s is the only choice.

Quote:
I spent 2 hrs on the internet to search for a new scientific calc.(non-graphic). I tried to compare the (TI, Casio, Canon, HP)specifation but too complicated.

I need it to use in my Grade 10 Maths class. Please gimme some recommendation.


#7

Hi,

If it is a maths class, then you shouldn't be using a calculator...


#8

Bill,
I totally disagree. I remember having to look up logs and trig funcitions from tables. This is a prime example of where a caculator will be of much use.

Joe

Quote:
Hi,

If it is a maths class, then you shouldn't be using a calculator...



#9

If you were looking up logs and trigs, then it was either

physics
chemistry
applied maths

maths doesn't even have any numbers :-)

Edited: 16 Feb 2006, 2:22 p.m.


#10

Oh, come on! We're talking about Grade 10, so let him learn this matter first. I agree there is more math (and more fun) to come where a calc is no use, but this will be constructed later on the fundaments layed now.


#11

Maybe I am totally lost, be seriously, what on earth would you need a calculator for in a maths class? Really.

It is not like I am ancient or anything. I graduated from University in 1991.

Let's see---algebra, no calculator required. Yo uare unravelling spgetti and shuffling numbers. A bit of simple arithmetic, that's all. Mostly symbolic manipulation. Calculator does not help. Unless one is *allowed* to do some sort of "brute force" estimation instead of rearranging the equations....

Analytical geometry. Oh, I see, let's plot points. I suppose you could use a calculator to make all the points. But isn't it better for the kid to get some arithmetic practice while he's at it?

Calculus. Here I can see absolutely no reason for a calculator. And from following the c.s.hp48 place for a couple of years, I can see that making the CAS stuff useful for learning is spotty at best, and perhaps more dangerous than useful.

So, again, what does he need a number cruncher for in maths?


#12

I totally disagree. Being able to quickly see what a function looks like ( and then remember it for the future) is very useful in something like an algebra class. Also, using a calc (I mean a symbolic calc) to walk thru steps when working with symbolic math is very useful.

Geometry - all you need is a straight-edge and a divider (compass) and you are set! :) Once again, though, being able to bring up pics of various objects and the formulas that go with them can be quite a teaching TOOL, not to be confused with a crutch.

Calc...hmmm...my instructor never used one in our class, but again, they can be used to walk thru a problem if you are alone and don't have anyone to help you out.

I think we need to clarify WHAT the calculator will be used for in the math class...and which class, before we spout off (for or against) any more opinions.

Quote:
Maybe I am totally lost, be seriously, what on earth would you need a calculator for in a maths class? Really.

It is not like I am ancient or anything. I graduated from University in 1991.

Let's see---algebra, no calculator required. Yo uare unravelling spgetti and shuffling numbers. A bit of simple arithmetic, that's all. Mostly symbolic manipulation. Calculator does not help. Unless one is *allowed* to do some sort of "brute force" estimation instead of rearranging the equations....

Analytical geometry. Oh, I see, let's plot points. I suppose you could use a calculator to make all the points. But isn't it better for the kid to get some arithmetic practice while he's at it?

Calculus. Here I can see absolutely no reason for a calculator. And from following the c.s.hp48 place for a couple of years, I can see that making the CAS stuff useful for learning is spotty at best, and perhaps more dangerous than useful.

So, again, what does he need a number cruncher for in maths?


#13

Actuallyl, it was algebra II (in 1984) and my instructor went beyond the standard curriculum and taught trig and base 8 mathematics as well. There was more, but I don't remember the rest of the details other than I did well and the teacher had gorgeous leg!!!

Quote:
If you were looking up logs and trigs, then it was either

physics
chemistry
applied maths

maths doesn't even have any numbers :-)


#14

In the non-graphing catagory, the selection is more limited in many ways than the graphics line.

There are actually 4 entry methods for pocket calcualtors:

Algebraic-no precidence, used by business/finance calculators such as the Hp10B, Hp 17Bii, Ti's BA-ii and Sharps EL 713??? (I don't know ALL the pocket calculators off the top of my head). I wounldn't suggest any of them, unless you are considering a business major. They all are great financial calculators though, but only the Ti has built in trig.

Algebraic - AOS, older algebraic entry with post fix trig functions. Harder to find than the more modern Algabraic, but still offered on some Sharp scientifics and amazingly the Hp33s (this is a selectable OS calculator as it is also RPN, see below). I actually like this algebraic system best.

Algebraic - EOS (Equation entry OS, also called VPAM: Visually Perfect Algebra Method?? by Casio, DAL by Sharp). This is now used by most pocket calculators and nearly ALL graphics calculators. You key in equations exactly as you see them in the text book. Nearly all of todays calculators on the shelf are of this type. This includes Hp's lower end Hp9s and Hp30s as well as all Ti's, Casio's and high end Sharp's (as I stated, the very cheapest Sharp will still be an AOS probably).

RPN - Reverse Polish Notations, clearly the favorite on this board. Only the Hp33s offers this. Also the Hp33s is the only real pocket programmable on the market. That is why it is $50 and everything else is $10-20. If you are a serious engineering/physics/science type student, this is the calculator to buy.

However, if you just need to learn math, the calculator is merely a tool to help and for learning math ie trig, nearly any scientific will do for you.


#15

It has the option to use precedence or not.

telling my students to change it from "chain" mode (adding machine style logic) to "AOS" is the first thing they do.

Amazing that TI's $30 business calculator knows that 1+2x3 should really equal 7 as written, but none of the HP business calculators do.

Why does HP assume business users never learned "multiplication and division before addition and subraction"?

Gene


#16

I've always wondered about this, too. Must have been some sort of study done---it goes all the way back to their 18c, yes?


#17

I suspect it may be a carry over from the early 70's era when electronic calculators became cheap enough to use in businesses. All early electronic calculators (esp desktops, aside from Hp) were offered w/o precidence. Hence to mimick this standard, the business pocket calculator lines were purposely crippled to mimick the older electronic calculators that had become the standard tool in this line of work. When Hp finally entered an AOS business calculator into the market, they followed the rest of the herd.


Only the BA-II offers the choice to abandon this business feature.

Thanks for the info on the Hp9s. I should have remembered that it is an AOS, but I don't have one (yet) to confirm and now that EOS is the supposed standard, I forget that some still offer the older AOS.

I do like the Hp33s for this feature as it allows it to mimick the older Hp20s very closely (aside from its looks). That way, both Hp32s and Hp20s users whose calculators eventually fail, still have a reasonable substitute available for replacement.


#18

It would be nice if it mimiced the 22s instead of the 20s. Being able to edit equations would be nice on the 33s. So far all I can seem to do is delete the entire equation and start again.

Am I missing something?

Quote:

I do like the Hp33s for this feature as it allows it to mimick the older Hp20s very closely (aside from its looks). That way, both Hp32s and Hp20s users whose calculators eventually fail, still have a reasonable substitute available for replacement.


#19

Hp9s is actually the older type, "AOS" as you call it. (Infix for mathematical operators , postfix for trig etc.

#20

Beware the often cited "enter it just like it is in the textbook" business.

Essentially *every* one of these systems has quirks which make it so that it does not work exaclty as you might think. Frequent errors occurr with differentiation of function between the minus and the change sign "+/-", "unary minus" issues, as in -5^3 does this equal a positive or a negative problem (this was a problem in the HP 32sii equation editor! but has been improved in the 33s)

There are numerous other quirks when going from sharp to casio to hp or even from one sharp to another etc.

RPN has only one *real* advantage: it is totally consistent and the logic is simple and fool-proof. That is why I like it.

But forgo the calculator in maths class :-)

Edited: 16 Feb 2006, 10:41 a.m.


#21

Hi Bill,

-5^3 should return -125, regardless of whether it is treated as (-5)^3, or -(5^3). Now, -5^2 on the other hand could be treated as (-5)^2 which is 25, or -(5^2), which is -25.

Out of curiosity, I flipped my HP-33S over to ALG mode (a rare occurence) and entered -, 5, y^x, 2, Enter. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the upper line displays 0-5^2, with the result -25 on the lower line.

Next I entered 5, +/-, y^x, 2, Enter. Now the upper line displayed (-5)^2, with the result 25 in the lower line. I don't have any Casio or Sharp algebraics on which to try out the same test, but at least the ambiguity seems to be removed in the display line of the HP-33S.

Best Regards,

Eamonn.


#22

Oops, sorry about the cube thing. That was an oops. Glad you were a better reader than I was a proofreader.

Yes, the 33s ALG is pretty cool that way. I remember, when I 1st got my 32sii in the mid '90s, having a crazy problem getting some equation to work. IT was that unary minus bug that was causing all the trouble.

The real important improvement on the 33s is in the equation list. Try it there, too.


Edited: 16 Feb 2006, 2:27 p.m.

#23

What about the hp8s?

Any one tried it yet?

Arnaud


#24

That is *not* and HP. It just has a badge.

The 33s is not made by HP, but at least it is designed by HP.


#25

Yes it looks awfully like the casio all my colleagues use but it is retty cheap.
Maybe worth concidering. The 6s wasn't hp eather but for the price it is pretty good.

Arnaud

#26

I need to buy my new calc. with EOS operation. What other functions I also have to pay attention?


#27

A well implemented equation solver is a useful tool, as are statistic functions, and matrices.

#28

I hate to say this, but you are probably better off without a calculator at all until you have the basics nailed down.

I'm not an Olde Phart like some of the esteemed geezers around here (Class of '85), but I learned everything (including trig) with pencil and paper plus whatever specialist stuff was needed like trig & log tables, compass & straightedge, etc. That learnin' more or less stuck with me and made me comfortable with numbers. I'm pretty sure a calculator would have been an obstacle to learning rather than a help.

To this day I try to get a first approximation in my head, to within an order of magnitude or better, before pulling out a pencil & paper, let alone a calculator. This practice has saved me a lot of grief over the years: if I already know what the answer should look like, I'm less likely to fall victim to, say, fat fingering a number on a calculator or computer keyboard.

Nevertheless, calculators, especially programmable machines, are wonderful labor savers when you have long chains of calculations or when you need high accuracy quickly.

Learning math has nothing to do with this sort of work. Stick to good old pencil & paper. If your math teacher requires you to have a calculator, see what you can do about getting another teacher.

Just my opinion, eh?


#29

Mr. Noble, I agree with you and while I'll withhold the exact date my college kicked me out, it isn't too many years removed from yours...

... and yes, sir, I am an Olde Phartte. (Note more era-correct spelling.)


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