forum message deletion feature considered harmful



#62

I expect some will disagree, but I'd like to see the message deletion feature go away. The ability to delete postings is inconsistent with the purpose of having an open and archived forum. It makes the discussions harder to follow.

Anything that a person doesn't want archived for posterity shouldn't be posted to the forum in the first place.


#63

The creator and moderator of this forum, in his wisdom has given us a very powerful and useful tool: the ability to delete a message. Sure, under ideal circumstances everyone should measure all they say, but everyone slips sometimes, including me. One night I really ragged on an HP employee. When I read the post the next day, I realized I'd overdone it, and I deleted it. I suppose you're so perfect you've never said anything stupid you'd like to take back? Hey, why don't you try it by deleting your post!

#64

That's what I'm used to in other forums. It might me useful, but I wonder if folks are more likely to shoot from the hip when they know they can take it back by deleting the post later? Personally, I like the edit feature. I use it to correct speling erurs all the time. I've also used it to amplify or modify a post too. But if it weren't there, I'd just be more careful up front.

Both features are open to abuse. There's a subculture of confrontation on this site that invites revisionist edits. I have a volatile side, so I've been caught up in it myself, mostly to my later regret. If I were less scrupulous, I might yield to the temptation to go back and edit the posts I was ashamed of. A truly viscious user wouldn't delete old posts, instead he'd edit them so they made the exchange look completely different. That wouldn't be possible in all cases, but there's enough ambiguity in language that such mischief could often succeed.

My vote would be to get rid of both the deletion and after-post editing features.


#65

Hi, Howard:

Howard posted:
"My vote would be to get rid of both the deletion and after-post editing features."

That's nonsense. As a frequent poster that frequently posts program listings and snippets of code, I fully know that no matter how many times you read and proofread the listings, you'll invariably commit one or two mistakes that you'll invariably notice *later*, once the listing is posted for good, so having the ability to edit these typos is kind of essential to make the posts useful in the first place and avoid leaving either errors or duplicated messages (in order to point out and correct the error) in the archives for posterity.

Just for instance, what would you prefer, reading some post of mine including a listing for the 71B which you know it's guaranteed to be correct ? Or having to search the whole thread to see if I had to point out typos in the listing, perhaps several of them scattered among several different later posts ?

Another instance: in your very post to which I'm replying right now, you have such pearls as "speling erurs", which is obviously an intentional mistake or two, and "It might me useful", which perhaps it's not.

Best regards from V.


#66

I agree with Valentin.

The possibility to edit a post is essential for non-english speaking posters because many times I noticed that I spelled some word wrong (possibly in this post, as well) and the ability to correct it was very useful ...

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 5:31 a.m.


#67

Quite apart from whether non-English speakers may find it useful (and I assume they may), I use the edit feature myself. Maybe it's a mild dyslexia, but I seem repeatedly to preview my draft posts, finding they look just fine until I see them actually posted, and then there's the garish misspelling or omission suddenly (somehow) made obvious.

(I suppose, alternatively, that from the perspective of some folks "across the pond", I'm a "non-English speaker", and therefore covered under the above statement of need ... ;-) )

And, as another post below demonstrates, the "quote" feature may be used to good effect. However, if either the original or the response is deleted or edited, we're left with the question of whether the quote is indeed an accurate and adequate reflection of what was originally written.

I would be interested in a feature that supports "deletion" and editing, but also provides link access to all posted versions of all messages. That way, the poster may hone his/her message, while the reader would have the option to form a fuller picture of what may have transpired.

But regardless of any minor nits that we may find in the way the site is implemented, the bottom line for most of us, I suspect, continues to be something like: "Thanks, Dave, for providing a place to meet!"

#68

A perfect example of abusive use of deletion feature, and use of quote as countermeasure HERE

An upset reader


Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 6:55 a.m.

#69

Hi, all;

as it is an open question, I’ll risk posting my own thoughts.

Many reasons have been pointed out, but the ones I support in order to keep deletion/editing features are: (I simply cut and paste some from others, as you'll see)

- The possibility to edit a post is essential for non-English speaking posters (I assume others agree with the fact that many contributors are foreigners related to the Forum’s origin, I included)

- You'll invariably commit one or two mistakes that you'll invariably notice *later* (even when you are a native English speaker)

- everyone should measure all they say, but everyone slips sometimes, including me.

In a real world, what's said is said, no way to turn such said words back to our mouths and brain. In some particular cases, I´ve seen (read) true 'dog fighting' here at this forum, involving regular contributors, that were completely whipped out, neither Dave Hicks was aware of that (I asked him later about some facts and he told me he was not aware of them). So, I conclude no back up is generated for such whipped out posts, and no such ' bad legacy' is left.

Considering these facts, the Forum Achieve does not perfectly reflects our Forum’s history, so we actually are not aware of such inconvenient facts. My question is: knowing about such bad facts or having them recorded would elucidate current behavior from some contributors? As time passes, some unwanted contributors simply disappeared and most of their bad posts are there at the Archives. One of our regular contributors once decided not to offer his valuable emulators because of some disturbed contributor that is no longer posting for more than two years, though.

I myself don’t remember removing my own posts except for one particular event in my very first months writing in here. Since them, I 'sit on my hands' long enough prior to writing, so I only edit my posts for corrections, not exactly to change a point of view.

But this is only me...

As a matter of fact, some regular contributors asked me why I was not participating so regularly at the Forum, and I must confess I've been reading messages that are not exactly of my own interest, but somehow others are interested on them. In other cases, I just read and have nothing to add. This does not mean I'd like such messages to be removed.

I'd vote for keeping editing/deletion. How to use the features is up to those who use them, and the main resource should not be confused for the way it is used.

Luiz (Brazil)

(had to correct for spelling)

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 9:51 a.m.


#70

Hi Luiz,

I agree.

Also, we have often used the "Luiz if you get this message can you call me" etc followed by "1234 to delete" which enables us to carry out logistics without cluttering the archive with those logistics.

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 12:44 p.m.

#71

My apologies to Eric for partially hijacking this thread by including the edit feature in the discussion. Obviously many folks (myself included) find a lot of value in being able to edit posts after they are first published.

The only argument in favor of the deletion feature I've seen so far is that it makes passing short off topic message easier. With respect, I'd like to point out that email is the right technology for that sort of thing. Given recent abuse of the deletion feature, does the convenience of message passing balance the possible misuse?

(Making use of the editing feature. How about that?)

There has been another argument for the deletion feature brought forward: that it allows people to take back hasty intemperate postings. I'm guessing that this may be the reason the feature was included in the first place. (Perhaps the moderator got asked to delete inflammatory postings too many times?)

In the real world, it is rare that you get the opportunity to really "take back" hasty, harmful speech. Words that leave your lips within hearing of someone else can't be recalled. Once the letter is in the mail carrier's bag, its delivery to the recipient is literally out of your hands. Most of us adjust our speech and writing with this fact of life in mind.

In the online world, it is also rare to be able to "take back" your posts. It's common for a moderator to be able to delete messages, but not for the user to have the same power. Despite this, it seems that intemperate speech is far more likely online than off. Opinions vary as to why this is, but it seems to be true. But this forum probably has a more mature crowd, on average, than other meeting places online. (If not emotionally, then in years, at least.)

I submit that if the deletion feature were removed, that most of the users of this forum would adjust. I predict that would lead to fewer abusive postings, not more. I know I would be more careful about what I posted if I knew I couldn't take it back.

Wait! That's not what I meant to say! 8) <-- emoticon indicating ironic humor (I hope)


Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 1:05 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#72

Hi Howard,

I disagree with the premise that "email is the appropriate technology" etc. Many here do not register their e-mails--a basic design concept which Dave allows for a number of very good reasons.

This leaves us with the need to pass messages on occasion.

As for the abuse of delete. Well, if you look at the recent string, it was all a lot of "off-topic arguing" and so what really is the harm?

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 12:50 p.m.


#73

See my edited post above. If speech here were more like the real world, we might see less casual abuse between people with more or less common interests. The premise is that postings that don't get deleted nonetheless reflect the atmosphere of an environment in which postings can be deleted.

And I didn't deny the convenience of passing notes in class. I questioned its value relative to the bad effects of the deletion feature.

#74

Actually I'd favor removing the edit feature as well, for the same reason, but I knew that would be even more controversial.

I certainly have used the edit feature many times myself, mostly for very minor corrections to my posts, but occasionally to add things I meant to write but unintentionally omitted. However, if the edit feature were removed, I'd be perfectly happy to simply post a response with corrections. That's how Usenet works, and it worked fine as a global forum for quite a few years. (Whether Usenet still is useful today is somewhat debatable, but the problem isn't the lack of delete and edit capability.)


#75

Usenet is interesting in this connection. It actually does have a delete feature. But for a couple of reasons it was never very effective. The main reason was the distributed nature of the network. Unix systems would call each other up over phone lines and exchange "net news." It was a "seldom on" type of networking, and very ad hoc. That meant that a lot of systems could miss or ignore a kill command. They would later call other systems and exchange news, including the "deleted" posts. The called systems might have different software that implemented the kill feature differently, or not at all.

The second reason was that users of the network, highly technical as most of them were at the beginning, were either unaware of the kill feature or knew it didn't work very well and didn't bother with it.

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 1:17 p.m.

#76

HI Eric,

If you look at this thread:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/browse_frm/thread/ead62448f8c83ba5/1b05746a858512c1#1b05746a858512c1

I think it shows that indeed, Usenet is still very useful! That little discussion will be archived and universally accessible for a loong time.

Best,

Bill

#77

I absolutely agree. I've never liked the delete feature.

#78

And that's putting it nicely.

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 5:00 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#79

Well, the only person who could delete your messages would be the moderator---unless you used a password and gave that password out (or used 1111 or 1234).

The coburlin stuff was waaaay OT --not all of it---but a lot of it, and if it was removed from the archive, I don't think it harms any of us.

As far as disparaging hobbyists---well, this happens to be a *hobby* for most people around here. That cobubba is bidding in virtually every auction in this hobby certainly is worth noticing and discussing. But when it gets to a flame war----why should Dave pay $$$ to keep that stuff on the server?

BTW, please delete this when you have read it---it doesn't need to be archived as far as I am concerned :-)

1111


#80

Quote:
Well, the only person who could delete your messages would be the moderator---unless you used a password and gave that password out (or used 1111 or 1234).

Is this correct? I was wondering. Further, when I tried to actually "log in" and post I found my account existed, but could not be accessed. So I either forget the password (although "Mark Lynch" didn't seem to be hooked to the real email account I use), or it was highjacked.

Huh. Food for thought. Oh well, I certainly mean no harm. If the moderator has the bandwidth and inclination to review and/or delete my messages I am okay with that. It is his forum after all.

M


#81

As I understand it, there may be several people acting as moderators at any time. You shouldn't necessarily assume that, when a post of yours is deleted mysteriously, it is Dave Hicks himself performing the surgery.


#82

I see. So at this point can I conclude definitely that it is *a* moderator deleting/editing my messages and not just another user?


#83

I just tried to delete the post to which I'm now responding. I didn't have the password, so it wouldn't let me delete.

So, I don't think that the typical user may delete someone else's post without the password.

(And no, I'm not *a* moderator -- though I was, once upon a time -- and I didn't edit your other message.)


#84

Well then that settles it.

Coburlin is secretly a moderator of the forum and filters my messages so as to continue his evil practices unnoticed!

Just as I suspected . . .


#85

I doubt it. If he was, he'd have already listed his Moderator password on eBay . . .

MINT!!! $480.00 NR!!!!

Edited: 28 Oct 2005, 5:25 p.m.

#86

Wow! The post you read and responded to has already been edited (not deleted), by someone other than me.

If it's the moderator making these changes I must say he's exceedingly efficient. It can't be more than 20 minutes past.

#87

Hi everyone,

I haven't had a chance to look at the forum much over the last couple of months. Lately I've had time to do a quick spam/scam check and that's about it. I have received a couple of emails about one person but they weren't very specific about the problem since I think they assumed I was caught-up. I wasn't and I'm still not unfortunately. I also saw a reference to me in a post implying that if I wasn't banning him, then I must be "OK" with whatever has been going on. That's also potentially incorrect due to me being out of the loop.

So, I've done a forum update that allows edits and deletes only up to the point where someone responds to your post. After that, you're stuck with what you've said. I can turn this restriction off at some time in the future if everything seems calm or if people hate it.

We do have several moderators here but I guess everyone else has been busy lately too or may have not been sure exactly where to prune. I've seen some strange threads with a bunch of deleted posts myself and not known what to make of them. Perhaps the other mods were similarly confused. Please take advantage of the "report post" feature if you see something inappropriate. If the mods don't agree, they'll just ignore you. You won't be punished and your report won't be made public.

If there are still problems or a "subculture of confrontation" as Howard called it, please let me know. I probably still won't have time to follow each thread over the next few weeks but I hope to get more active later.

On an unrelated subject/poster:

Yes, I edited the Coburlin post since it would flatter Mark and so as not to derail this thread with off-topic flaming. Mark, out of your 23 posts here so far, I see two that are actually about HP calculators. The rest are about Coburlin, ebay, paypal etc. with your contributions frequently being to call people names and to tell them not to talk about these things. If you want to see less on these topics, I suggest you stir them up less. (I don't think I deleted the earlier one, but looking at the logs, I see a few that would have tempted me.) Posting more signal will make the noise less annoying.


#88

Hi David,

I am happy to discuss with you PRIVATELY what has been going on (apparently in your absence) from my point of view. When I do post advice in good faith to people who have technical problems I draw a lot of flak from certain people. I beleive I understand their motives, which imho are not benign. Other critics have been much more balanced and their feedback I am sure is welcomed by all the reasonable people here including myself.

The contents of my posts are technically sound as others here have independently shown. I thank those people for their objectivity in sharing their knowledge and findings. That's what it's all about, isn't it? I'm beginning to really wonder...

I have received strong support via e-mail (out-of-band ;-) from professional people which I sincerely appreciate.

Much more disturbing to me is that within a day or two of this
"flame war" happening I was advised by email of attempts to set up fraudulent amazon.com account and paypal account in my name. I have an I.P. address supplied to me apparently by paypal which I will have to check out to find out what is really going on. What is being attempted is apparently fraud, which carries stiff penalties and can be prosecuted.

Some time ago in August when I first floated an advert to do
repairs two attempts were made to send me a destructive payload via e-mail. Due to the poor technical knowledge of the attacker they failed and were a source of annoyance and amusement rather than alarm. I have my machine configured to do comprehensive FORENSICS
within a few minutes of becoming aware of attacks so I don't think it's very wise for anyone on the net to hassle me in this way.

Criticism of technically skilled people like myself who urge caution in specific aspects of d-i-y repairs others want to undertake is imho quite unwarranted. I was only trying to help others from a strong technically sound standpoint, FOR FREE.
And I was on topic ;-)

I find this whole ridiculous episode a serious waste of my freely given time.

To my critics, particularly those whom I have given good technical advice I would say with respect that imho you may profit from taking a good look at yourself. I think it IS time a few people cleaned their act up. No individual has a monopoly on this forum or on doing repair work for fee or helping people freely by way of accurate advice.

Bottom line from my point of view would be: this forum needs less politics/partisan behaviour, less juvenile bullying/abuse and more technically sound advice. I don't have to cop ill considered criticism or abuse in silence and more to the point I WON'T. Please be clear on that point, everyone. Please keep your posts civil... and accurate.

Anyone who wants technical advice from me on any hp equipment (not just calculators! ;-)I am familiar with without the potential negative side effects of doing this in forum can write to me:

donwallace63@yahoo.com.au

I have also repaired a lot of other brands, too ;-P

I have not bothered to read the copious thread on deletions.
My interest here is in assisting hp41 owners to keep their machines running and extending the capability/utility, not helping owners to unwittingly wreck them or abusing others who offer good advice or on-topic cautions.

Dave, if you don't mind, can you please delete all my posts and those responding negatively (for balance) in about a week or two. Thanks for hosting us all. Despite the drama, I HAVE met some really nice interesting people here, both hobbyist and professional.

Seriously unimpressed...

fwiw,

Don Wallace

P.S. To certain people, Please don't cuss/criticize me in latin...
No doubt you would be able to faithfully render into latin the phrase: Get a Life...


#89

Hi all,

I have read the thread. I vote for keeping edit and delete and would ditch the quote feature but one can cut and paste anyway. No matter what features you keep or discard a forum will be abused by calculating people no matter what.

I am NOT one of them!

Note (Howard) that the quote feature can be (and has been imho) used maliciously. Your assertions about my deletions are just
plain wrong. I consider you a friend of sorts so I am not offended.
My motives in self-censorship were good. Others could and perhaps should take my lead...

Editing is neccessary. I posted some non trivial technical comments the other day which were just plain wrong (whoops! there's always a FIRST time, for EVERYONE... ;-) but corrected it within about 30 minutes.

Changing gears for a bit...
To clarify: I apologize to all hobbyists who have misinterpreted me
(my doing (Mia Culpa!) due to slightly careless use of language). There's nothing wrong with those people. However, when someone, whether hobbyist or supposed "pro" jumps in and criticises good technically sound advice meant to protect others from damaging equipment then I find that a bit strange. When they are backed up by people going off like a bunger comparing apples to oranges (34C to 41 battery-and-connect hardware (Hi, Karl)) it gets bizarre...

I respectfully vote for a general return to sanity here and STILL advise caution in d-i-y repairs in certain areas, that is unless people LIKE (enticing others into...???) making inoperable junk! My technical position has not changed.

There is imho nothing wrong with civility, relevance, technical accuracy and moderate behaviour in a forum. However, when being disparaged or under public attack (from others with ulterior motives who behave in a sneaky and hypocritical manner) it is NATURAL to want to respond. As people have found, when pressed I reluctantly can give as good as I get, in latin if required.
I am under a lt of stress in my personal life atm and maybe it rubbed. If so then I AM SINCERELY SORRY!

The two people who imho started this garbage some time ago, Tony and Randy are conspicuously quiet. I suspect not after this post.
One can hope at least...

I urge all here to take a careful considered approach not just to writing here, but also to READING the posts...between the lines...

In responding to problems I POST FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PERSON WITH THE PROBLEM. What others think of me is IRRELEVANT.

Now I have to go fix a PC with a thermal alarm problem for a friend for free so I cannot waffle further.

A saying I like form an old drunk (maths genius lecturer who taught me at U.Q. ages ago): If you can't understand what all the fuss is about then you don't know what the hell is going on!

All freedoms are relative.

Sorry for drawing all this heat Dave!
Have fun everybody, and PLAY NICE!

CYA!

Don Wallace


#90

Quote:
Hi all,

Note (Howard) that the quote feature can be (and has been imho) used maliciously. Your assertions about my deletions are just
plain wrong. I consider you a friend of sorts so I am not offended.
My motives in self-censorship were good. Others could and perhaps should take my lead...


I believe you when you say the deletions were not meant to be malicious, Don. I think that you were trying to use them to take back intemperate outbursts that you thought better of later. The trouble with that is, you can't really take stuff like that back after people have read it. There are fragile egos everywhere you go, and this forum is no exception. Given that, it's a good idea generally to restrain your pen when you feel like someone has offended you. Personally, I find that postings I make in anger have a disenheartening way of rebounding on me. Often the rebound has the ironic twist that the thing I thought I was being victimized with is the very thing I myself was guilty of in the response. I really hate it when that happens.

Anyhow, I think that you and I, and the forum generally, could benefit from knowing that what we post would be permanent. I know for certain that I would take more care with the content of my writing in that case, and I expect that others would too.

Regards,

Howard

#91

More excerpts from Don Wallace:

Quote:

My motives in self-censorship were good. Others could and perhaps should take my lead...

To post repeated diatribes within a thread, then to delete them all after-the-fact, only leaves a mess, as Dave pointed out. (Quote: "I've seen some strange threads with a bunch of deleted posts myself and not known what to make of them.") We won't follow your example.

Quote:

However, when someone, whether hobbyist or supposed "pro" jumps in and criticises good technically sound advice meant to protect others from damaging equipment then I find that a bit strange. When they are backed up by people going off like a bunger comparing apples to oranges (34C to 41 battery-and-connect hardware (Hi, Karl)) it gets bizarre...

Um, hi, Don.

Some of us didn't agree that your advice regarding the risk of using rechargable batteries on the 41's was as sound -- or at least, as specific -- as it could have been. Do you care to elaborate?

On the 34C vs. 41C battery terminals ("going off like a bunger"): Yes, they are different. The 34C's are flexible and seem to be made of spring steel; the 41C's are fixed, and seem to be copper (maybe I'm wrong on both counts).

Many 41C's have severely corroded terminals. I would surmise that most 41's have been run on alkaline disposables, for many practical reasons.

The 34's rarely have corroded terminals, but often have broken ones. 34's were run on their custom-designed NiCd rechargeables -- at least until their owners balked at paying $12 for a new NiCd pack, inserted the overlength AA disposables, thereby breaking the contacts eventually.

Again, do you care to elaborate?

Quote:

There is imho nothing wrong with civility, relevance, technical accuracy and moderate behaviour in a forum...

I consider it de rigeur. (That's French.)


Quote:

...However, when being disparaged or under public attack (from others with ulterior motives who behave in a sneaky and hypocritical manner) it is NATURAL to want to respond. As people have found, when pressed I reluctantly can give as good as I get, in latin if required. I am under a lt of stress in my personal life atm and maybe it rubbed. If so then I AM SINCERELY SORRY!

Ah yes, the irrational "victimhood" exception, which is then invoked to justify the incivil counterattack!


Quote:

The two people who imho started this garbage some time ago, Tony and Randy are conspicuously quiet. I suspect not after this post. One can hope at least...

No, you started it, by suggesting that people who elected to use certain kinds of batteries "HAVE ROCKS IN THEIR HEADS". Remember? As for the two individuals, perhaps they have wisely quit wasting their time on a person who seems to have little control over his thoughts and public communications.

Quote:

Sorry for drawing all this heat Dave! Have fun everybody, and PLAY NICE!

How ironic that last statement was...

Frankly, I like the "edit and delete even after responses" capability, and now they have been indefinitely rescinded largely because of your actions. I have liberally made after-the-fact edits (as Valentin Albillo has done), wanting to improve my contributions whenever possible. I don't edit to make respondents appear foolish, and can't cite a clear case of anyone else doing that.

We can all sympathize with your A.S. condition, Don, but I doubt that most of us can fully comprehend it. However, you mustn't allow yourself to use it as a pretext for inappropriate statements.

If this stuff continues, I'll ask Dave and the surrogate moderators to review your postings and to just delete the "bad" ones as they see fit.

-- KS



#92

Quote:
I consider it de rigeur. (That's French.)

No, that's a sneer in any language.

Quote:

How ironic that last statement was...


Don Wallace doesn't know from irony.

Quote:
Frankly, I like the "edit and delete even after responses" capability, and now they have been indefinitely rescinded largely because of your actions.

Which completely ignores the context the deletions were made in. I'm not talking about the technical arguments, but the rather viscious and cutting responses to Don's over the top, paranoid reaction to criticism.

Quote:
We can all sympathize with your A.S. condition, Don, but I doubt that most of us can fully comprehend it. However, you mustn't allow yourself to use it as a pretext for inappropriate statements.

And don't let the fact that Don certainly asked to be criticised keep you from feeling ashamed about piling it on a guy with limited capacity to defend himself coherently. He handed someone his head, rhetorically speaking, by questioning Randy's credentials. You chopped it off, apparantly with gusto.


#93

Howard --

... I must take some issue:

Quote:

I consider it de rigeur. (That's French.)


No, that's a sneer in any language.


Perhaps I should have defined it (and, ahem, spelled it correctly) --

De rigueur: strictly required, as by etiquette, usage, or fashion (1825-35).

This is a reasonably familiar foreign phrase that has long been incorporated into English. Remember that Don used pejorative Australian slang to poke me, after having taken others to task for using Italian and Latin phrases (which admittedly should also have been translated to English).

Quote:
Don Wallace doesn't know from irony.

I guess we'll have to take his (and your?) word for that, won't we? Of course, it might well be true...

Quote:
...but the rather viscious [sic] and cutting responses to Don's over the top, paranoid reaction to criticism.

I don't think any of us were particularly vicious (least of all myself), but some of us were justifiably blunt.

I think that Don gets displeased that his repeated counterattacks didn't put an end to the threads, so he tried to "wipe the whole thing out" after the fact. Heck, I don't mind deleting my contributions to those threads, but why should people have their time wasted responding to slurs, only to eventually be asked, "Never mind"?

Quote:
And don't let the fact that Don certainly asked to be criticised keep you from feeling ashamed about piling it on a guy with limited capacity to defend himself coherently.

Let's not forget that he has initiated and repeated the slurs, and that he is educated and intelligent enough to recognize the likely outcome of initiating disputes, given his acknowledged circumstances.

Nobody should get carte blanche (a "blank check" or free pass) to act freely, just because of some identified handicap. If someone cannot function properly in a certain activity, he should make that "extra effort" to avoid it. In this case, Don should just present his information as plainly as possible without argumentative embellishment.

Quote:
He handed someone his head, rhetorically speaking, by questioning Randy's credentials. You chopped it off, apparantly [sic] with gusto.

Well, I'd say that's hyperbole.

But a line must be drawn. I won't stand for further irrational criticism and questioning of competence -- by name, in an archived and "Google-able" forum -- regarding myself and others who I know deserve better.

-- KS



#94

Quote:
This is a reasonably familiar foreign phrase that has long been incorporated into English. Remember that Don used pejorative Australian slang to poke me, after having taken others to task for using Italian and Latin phrases (which admittedly should also have been translated to English).

Hi Karl,

since I was the one who used latin once to express (in a mild manner) my feelings about Don's posts I must also point out that I never used italian on this forum.

I thought, erroneously of course, that some latin phrases were known enough around the world to not include a translation. Who knows? Maybe because I keep on spotting latin "mottos": from your national one E pluribus unum, to military corps, universities and so on; the EU motto is In varietate concordia, BTW.

This is because latin was a lingua franca [a language used beyond its native speakers, in commerce and cultural exchanges] long before english.

When asked for a translation I promptly provided it, though, even if "google-ing" around would easily give the answer.

Just a last nitpicky note: when you quote Howard [and I report it verbatim ;-) ]

Quote:
He handed someone his head, rhetorically speaking, by questioning Randy's credentials. You chopped it off, apparantly [sic] with gusto.

Here we find sic latin and gusto italian.

Given this I must remember that the lack of a positional notation in Roman numerals prevented us to invent the calculatrix [calculus: pebble, small stone] which - as we all know - brought us to The Fall Of The Roman Empire... :-)

Greetings,
Massimo

Edited: 29 Oct 2005, 6:26 a.m.


#95

Quote:

Here we find sic latin and gusto italian.


As long as we are picking linguistic nits, gusto is actually an english word. English is of course a great borrower of vocabulary from (mostly) European languages.

In this case, the word was borrowed from spanish, not italian, according to Merriam-Webster

Edited: 29 Oct 2005, 2:21 p.m.

#96

It's always taken for granted all people in this forum (Latin!) understand English despite a real lot of typos and/or slang and these weird abbreviations some folks use. But if anybody once quotes an old and famous expression in another language, those folks are embarrassed. Hi, there are other languages still on this planet! And history didn't start with the Pilgrim Fathers! And if it's just a matter of majority, then we shall have these discussions in Chinese ...

I just had to tell this once.

Ceterum censeo quam lineam esse delendam! (Furthermore I think this thread should be deleted - completely, because it's off topic and will never return to calculators. A similar sentence was used repeatedly - and effectively in the end - by Cato Maior in the Senatus of Rome, about DIV A.U.C., i.e. CXLIX B.C.) Please, Dave!


#97

Hallo Walter!

If you use the "ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam" form then you must be german-educated!

As a french, I knew only the simple form "Delenda est/quoque Carthago" and was scolded by my teacher in Mainz!!!

Did you learn Latin in Germany ? Please answer me before this thread is deleted!!!

MfG from France!

Etienne

Sorry Dave :-)


#98

Bonsoir Etienne!

You got the point :-)) Almost 4 decades ago they used also this form to teach us the A.c.I. (in Darmstadt, not too far from Mainz). What did you do in Mainz? Exchange student?

Salut

Walter

P.S. As mentioned, this thread is off topic anyway. So there is no reason to put OT in the subject here.

Edited: 29 Oct 2005, 6:15 p.m.


#99

Hallo!

YOU got the point :-)

I was an exchange student in Mainz for one year (2 years before the Abitur), practising my german in a normal german Gymnasium.

I love german, did enjoy attending a normal school and adapted quickly except for the latin courses with explanations in german!!!

My otherwise good grades (in France) were here transformed in a complete catastrophe!!

And the latin teacher kept on making fun of my "Latin de cuisine" (ie bad latin) let alone my lack of mastership Accusativus cum Infinitivo forms :-)))

A great experience anyway and the Rheinland Palatinat is a wonderful region!!

Thanks for your answer und freundlichem Grüße aus Frankreich!

Etienne

Hmmmh, of course there had to be an error in my post (due to hybris (= ancient Greek!)). It should read

"about DCIV A.U.C."

in the bottom line. Another effect of calcs: I have difficulties to calculate without them ;-)

Quote:
Perhaps I should have defined it (and, ahem, spelled it correctly)

No, I understood what it means. It's still a sneer when you imply that the person you address the message to wouldn't know that it was french, or wouldn't know the definition.

Quote:

Quote: And don't let the fact that Don certainly asked to be criticised keep you from feeling ashamed about piling it on a guy with limited capacity to defend himself coherently.

Let's not forget that he has initiated and repeated the slurs, and that he is educated and intelligent enough to recognize the likely outcome of initiating disputes, given his acknowledged circumstances.


I know you are capable of using language carefully. That implies you are also capable of reading carefully. I know that can be hard to do when you are defending yourself in public. But please do try to reread the above exchange. I think you are restating part of my premise, and entirely missing its point.

You might also look at my exchange with Don here in this thread in which I criticise him in a way likely to be heard and acted on. Also notice that he apologized in response. My main point now is that your approach to criticism added fuel to the fire, and that could have been predicted. If what you are after is a good roast, then you are clearly approaching things in the right way.

I know this may appear out of place in this thread as it is in direct response to Don's post... but here goes:

Quote:
The two people who imho started this garbage some time ago, Tony and Randy are conspicuously quiet. I suspect not after this post. One can hope at least...

Don, what is that "One can hope" for? That I'll remain conspicuously quiet? A simple yes or no will do.

Since that was an easy one, here's one that is a bit tougher. Could you please explain what you think my motives are by posting what you have many times said is unsound/bad information on this board? I'm most curious...


I really am tired of these threads...

Randy, I do not have to justify myself or explain the motives of others here or anywhere else.

You can explain your motives here...if you like.

You need to justify your statement that NiCd cells don't deteriorate or corrode much and won't wreck equipment in time if not watched...closely. They are more trouble than they are worth. That fact is borne out by long history. Remember all those old PC motherboards with NiCd cells on board for CMOS config ram backup? How many motherboards died that way? How many Canon printing calculators? Etc...... Ad Nauseum......

Alkaline cells are really bad but only when they do eventually leak. I never ever had trouble with them in my hp and always use them in fact. NiCds are in practice much more troublesome. The difference in discharge characteristics (disch. slope, knee voltage and "flat-cell" cliff) and cell chemistry means with nicd cells you don't get adequate warning from the low battery indicator of some incremental damage occuring when using tired nicd cells. HP fitted a shield in some models to overcome this, apart from different cell cradles all manufacturers try to solve the problem. Alkalines do not give this trouble because at least you know when they are flat and unlike nicd cells they don't seem to damage equipment until they really are quite flat partly as they are not rechargeable and don't gas. When they do go they ARE terrible. So are NiCads, not quite so much so.

I am not certain of what the 41CX "off state" drain is, someone SAID it's about the same as for a CV and that it didn't matter. Well, I know better. A lot of us may use our calcs intermittently and a higher off drain (my measurements indicate a factor five difference based on the timer running a 10kHz oscillator which is where that extra current goes). Not a big difference but significant. As someone said, I got "called out" on that one but I am still right on that point. A timer in system drops the "shelf life" by a factor of five...
41CV off = 6 uA (varies); 41CV with timer off = 30 uA (varies)

A good many people here (this is not meant as a criticism) are not very technical and not very aware. Repairing a lot of different stuff daily for 20 years you soon learn. So you must then know things others don't and that don't get taught at university. I have met some very knowledgeable engineers and some very impractical ones too. Ditto for programmers.

Tony needs to justify his statement to a newbie d-i-y repairer that one can easily pull down an hp41 display and reassemble it when the success rate for people who do it FOR A LIVING is about 30% and on that basis it's almost never done. He needs to justify to me his strong criticism of my warning which was issued in good faith.

You both need to justify criticism of my offering to do repairs here when you both repair calcs for money and in light of the fact that often others offer a tagline type advert for your repair biz (Randy).

There is nothing wrong with friendly open-handed competition and technically accurate criticism.

Tony needs to justify criticising me for "witholding information" when he himself does just that all the time, but subtley.
When someone knows something he doesn't he is strident in wanting to know everything they found. Of course, because there's money in doing good repairs as you well know. The more one knows the more repairs one can successfully perform.

There is a lot wrong with starting a flame war in a forum, whatever that forum may be about. That happens a lot on the net, but I have found exactly the politics displayed here in other forums. There's less of it here because most of the time people are quite genteel.
Except when fighting over scraps?... or argueing linguistics or semantics (!)

In some cases (in other forums, particularly some computer forums) some of the moderators get very abusive and "bitchy" when they encounter people (not only or neccessarily myself) who are (somewhat or very) knowledgeable on things like internet networking protocols, network security or firewalls or whatever. When after dishing out repeated "cr*p", their bluff is called, they fall silent, outgunned by hard fact and unmasked by their own bad behaviour. Until they are actually silenced they really try to make you look bad, though...That these people are moderators is what surprises me. I am thinking of a girl called Ursula, btw...

Dave Hicks isn't like that, I guess because he's an engineer who's done it (hp product work); he hasn't anything to prove...

As everyone here by now knows, I do not like people who don't know what they are on about or with ulterior motives jumping on me in public. I really "made a few clams" here though... Big ones...
I have been really very tired lately (partner does shift work and the hours are crazy so I need more sleep).

Again: SORRY!

Hmmm...

To Karl: Randy doesn't need your support and you didn't help anyone.
You just displayed your personality. Oh and a bunger is a firecracker, btw. Was that the oz lingo you referred to?

To Howard: Thanks mate, but I don't need your support though you and Bill and a few others I find by and large are from fairly to very clear headed about the politics of all this. I enjoyed reading their posts, too many to mention here...

Although abrasive, I have shown I am (perhaps too) open and honest, albeit intolerant of criticism and a bit quick and definitely too abrasive in responding to it. I am also technically competent, despite dropping out of engineering many years ago (not through lack of academic skill). There's one more fact about myself I have disclosed.

Although it would indeed be good for business, I do not talk up or encourage people to dive in to "repairing" elements in equipment which they won't be able to get back in one piece and running again.
I do not see any merit in it whatsoever.

People with ANY elecronics fault in ANY hp equipment are WELCOME to write to me privately. I will help you in any way I can.
People who want complex software written for the 41 (optionally in a module) can also write to me. If the application warrants it, I will fully characterise any software or hardware I devise.

sincerely,

DW


Hi Don,

Quote:
...some of the moderators get very abusive and "bitchy" ...

Dave Hicks isn't like that, I guess because he's an engineer who's done it (hp product work); he hasn't anything to prove...

Please don't make assumptions about me. I haven't commented because I haven't read your posts before. I can get bitchy if I have to. It's possible that I haven't been bitchy enough lately.

Today I have been looking through the logs and piecing conversations together. This has been made somewhat difficult due to your tendency to delete things so I may have missed some things, but here's what I'm seeing:

Here some of the ways the you have referred to people on this forum:

Quote:
"hacks and hobbyists"

"Where certain parts of this forum get (imho) quite bizarre at times is where people who do not know what they are talking about berate people who actually DO."

"I have met some really remarkable people here. Maybe you are one too. So far, in your replies, I haven't seen it. Am I missing something? (I doubt it...)"

"Some others (perhaps someone whose been critical of me?) have offered completely
impractical repair advice here. I never criticised them. "

"I decided to stay here for now as people may need some protection from the BAD ADVICE of a few others... I am happy to fill that role. "

"Anyone who wants to run rechargeables in his 41 HAS ROCKS IN THEIR HEAD."

"Have I offended anyone? Who cares!"

"Grow up, please."


On the other hand, I've found threads where people have politely stated that they have different opinions and experiences from you and you have responded like:

Quote:
"When you and Randy continue to abuse me (for reasons related to your thinking
your getting some competition?): annoying."

"Please don't criticise my posts and I will continue not to criticise yours.
Ditto to Randy if you are reading."


As much as you claim to be abused, I haven't yet been able to find it.

Quote:
Tony needs to justify his statement to a newbie d-i-y repairer that one can easily pull down an hp41 display and reassemble it when the success rate for people who do it FOR A LIVING is about 30% and on that basis it's almost never done. He needs to justify to me his strong criticism of my warning which was issued in good faith.

That isn't quite what he said. What Tony actually said was:

Quote:
What is the problem (other than very static-sensitive chips) in dismantling the display module of a fullnut?

...

I will admit I have never taken a fullnut HP41 display, but unless I can find good evidence that taking one apart _will_ ruin it, I would give it a go if other cures failed.

...

After all, the HP manual does give an official procedure for doing this.

...

Which brings me back to my original question. If there is something odd about this display where dismantling it will do serious damage, then I would like to know about it. If there is nothing known like that, I probably will take an old 41CV (the most common 41 in my experience, I have a few with cracked posts, etc) apart and see how I get on. I'll report here anything that I find out.

I see nothing to justify there.

By the way, I just tried Tony's technique on my fading old Fluke and it worked nicely. Of course, that's the example Tony gave so it doesn't prove anything about HP41s but it was useful advice for me. Notice also that Tony starts simply by asking a question. He wants to know if what has worked on a Fluke display might work on an HP. This was a fine chance to educate him or just let him try it and see what the results are. I don't see the problem. I would assume the (alleged) newbie would wait to see what results Tony got before proceeding and would decide whether his skills were comparable to Tony's. I think we also need to understand that some people would rather have ideas that they can try themselves because they have no plan whatsoever to send a calculator off to a professional to repair. Such ideas are better than nothing, even if the chances are slim, because in some cases it's either a free self-repair or toss it and buy a new one.

If you're going to continue contributing to a public group like this, you're going to have to learn to accept differences of opinions and experiences. You're also going to need to learn to treat others more like the way you expect to be treated.

Quote:
Although abrasive, I have shown I am (perhaps too) open and honest, albeit intolerant of criticism

Yes, please work on the abrasiveness and the intolerance of criticism. We'd love to have you share your knowledge with us but we need a little more friendliness and willingness to accept other points of view. (And a different point of view is not necessarily criticism.)

Quote:
I have been really very tired lately (partner does shift work and the hours are crazy so I need more sleep).

Again: SORRY!


I hope you get a good night's sleep tonight.


Edited: 30 Oct 2005, 1:11 a.m.


I don't want to leave the impression that I only saw posts like the ones I quoted above. I've seen many perfectly pleasant posts from you as well.


Thank you kindly, Dave.

DW

Hi Dave,

There are other threads in which Tony and Randy jumped on me.
I think that is where some confusion lies. So, my fault for kind of cross-posting; I should know better.

If you care to you can find some rather critical off-track stuff about me (Karl's posts etc...) in this thread. If you care to...
It's worth your while to check other threads.

The point is I was posting to help someone, I know what I am on about, my comments are by and large technically VERY sound, if badly phrased and I did not start this "bun fight".

Generally I'd like to hear from anyone who actually HAS pulled down a display module, reassembled it and got it going. That WOULD be really interesting. If they do it ten times (on ten different displays) and we get a % success rate then that would be great experience for the forum. I expect the rate to be maybe 10%. My advice to the poster was very sound. I admit I phrase things poorly, though, at times.

I am getting a very clear picture of the relative experience of the posters (regardless of degrees, etc...) in this forum and in that respect these recent threads have been very enlightening to me.
Ditto wrt personalities/friendships/loyalties, generally speaking with respect to all concerned.

I do not assume you can't get bitchy :-) I do assume you are WAY MORE knowledgeable and rational than Ursula... and less partisan.

A fluke display is designed to be dismantled and cleaned and is quite rugged. I bought a 2nd hand 75 in 1983. One cannot compare that with the repair of stuff like 41's though. They are not designed to be pulled apart and put back together and are infinitely more fragile.

Lots of people, not just me, make all sorts of assumptions...

All I ask, Dave, if you review the threads is be balanced and
do not let a matter of personal friendship cloud your objectivity.
It is possible Tony and Randy trade on this sort of thing. There's money in it for them!

I now regret deleting my posts in that the water is now somewhat muddied, not my intention at all.

Dave, I wonder how come I was no longer able to post as Don and had to change my user name? Is anyone apart from yourself able to fiddle my password? Has anyone changed my password on me?

Just curious.

Now more than ever, I feel I can be of benefit to people who post to the forum with problems. Certainly the benefit and payoff is to them not me.

God I hate politics!!!

DW


Quote:
A fluke display is designed to be dismantled and cleaned and is quite rugged. I bought a 2nd hand 75 in 1983. One cannot compare that with the repair of stuff like 41's though. They are not designed to be pulled apart and put back together and are infinitely more fragile.

Thank you. That is a vast improvement over your earlier response.

Quote:
All I ask, Dave, if you review the threads is be balanced and
do not let a matter of personal friendship cloud your objectivity.
It is possible Tony and Randy trade on this sort of thing. There's money in it for them!

Quote:
God I hate politics!!!

Do you? A little while ago you weren't going to discuss Randy's motives. I suggest that you either post the entire story of Randy, Tony, me(?), others(?), "destructive email payloads", Paypal fraud, Amazon etc. now, or just drop all the intrigue and talk about calculators.

Quote:
I really am tired of these threads...

Randy, I do not have to justify myself or explain the motives of others here or anywhere else.


No, but you seem to expect others to justify what they say.

Quote:

I am not certain of what the 41CX "off state" drain is, someone SAID it's about the same as for a CV and that it didn't matter. Well, I know better. A lot of us may use our calcs intermittently and a higher off drain (my measurements indicate a factor five difference based on the timer running a 10kHz oscillator which is where that extra current goes). Not a big difference but significant. As someone said, I got "called out" on that one but I am still right on that point. A timer in system drops the "shelf life" by a factor of five...
41CV off = 6 uA (varies); 41CV with timer off = 30 uA (varies)


I really quant follow this at all. First you say you don't know what the CX off-state current drain is. And then you say you know better than 'it's about the same as for a CV and it didn't matter'. Now either you do know the current drain of a CX (that is, you've measured it, or have seen measurements that you trust), or you are talking nonsense.

And AFAIK the real time clock oscillator in the CX (and for that matter the time module) is 32.768kHz, not 10kHz. Not that it makes much difference to the argument.

Quote:

A good many people here (this is not meant as a criticism) are not very technical and not very aware. Repairing a lot of different stuff daily for 20 years you soon learn. So you must then know things others don't and that don't get taught at university. I have met some very knowledgeable engineers and some very impractical ones too. Ditto for programmers.


You have no idea as to my qualifications or experience. Period.

I will say this, though. I've been repairing stuff for a lot longer than 20 years. I've also done a heck of a lot of very successful repairs when others claimed they couldn't be done. Yes, I've had disasters, but that, alas, is part of the learning process. If you claim you've never messed anything up, then quite honestly I won't believe you.

And yes I am most definitely a self-taught hobbyist. I also object to the implication that that means my knowledge is somehow inferior to others. I've met plenty of self-taught people in all fields who really know what they are talking about.

I will also gladly admit that I make mistakes and that I've made errors when posting here. I don't believe anyone can ever claim not to have done either. However, I find it a lot more helpful to post justified corrections to such errors, not just flame me for making them.

Quote:

Tony needs to justify his statement to a newbie d-i-y repairer that one can easily pull down an hp41 display and reassemble it when the success rate for people who do it FOR A LIVING is about 30% and on that basis it's almost never done. He needs to justify to me his strong criticism of my warning which was issued in good faith.


I do not need to justify that because I've never said it. What I claimed was it was possible to take a 41 display module apart without ruining it. And although I've never done it (I am certainly going to try though), I still don't see what the problem is. This does not mean I think it's a good idea to take apart display modules 'for the fun of it' (it isn't) or that anybody can do it. I do think it's _possible_, and will therefore practice on an otherwise broken machine to see.

I re-ask my original question : If you know something odd about this display that means there is some issue in taking it apart that doesn't apply to other similar displays and isn't mentioned in the HP service manual, then please tell us. If not, then let me get on with possibly wrecking an old display to find out.

Quote:

You both need to justify criticism of my offering to do repairs here when you both repair calcs for money and in light of the fact that often others offer a tagline type advert for your repair biz (Randy).


Yes, I do repair machines for money occassionally. Quite honestly, I'd rather not have the hassle of so doing, but some people do not
feel happy with a soldering iron and logic analyser, so I help them
out. I'd much rather help them (and others) to do the job themselves.

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with friendly open-handed competition and technically accurate criticism.


I agree totally. The problem is that much of your critism does not seem to be based on available facts -- that is things I can read in
manuals, on the web, etc.

Quote:

Tony needs to justify criticising me for "witholding information" when he himself does just that all the time, but subtley.
When someone knows something he doesn't he is strident in wanting to know everything they found. Of course, because there's money in doing good repairs as you well know. The more one knows the more repairs one can successfully perform.


Let's get the trivial case out of the way now. If I posted all the information I had on a particular machine every time that machine was mentioned here, I'd not have time to do anything else, and this forum would soon be over-full.

Now I want you to point me to one place where I have deliberately witheld information (so I can make a profit on the repair or otherwise). Yes, there have been times when it would have been a waste of time for me to post the information (the questioner would not have had the skills to make use of it). There have been times when I've taken a discussion to private e-mail, but I've then given permission for the results (and the information I've provided) to be made public.

And who do you think produced repair schematics for just about every HP handheld and most of the desktops. And then gave them away free.


Hi Tony,

10240 Hz (to get 1/100th secs easily).

Why do you guess tech. details? RTFM mate.

Thanks for clueing me in on the source of the error riddent 41 schematic.

I've got way better things to do with my time that argue with the
t/k/r mutual admiration B.S. machine and read supportive prattle by a few calc collection fetishists...(hey guys (Ettiene and Massimo et. al.) u did not have to weigh in on a scrap between a few techies...)

dw


Quote:
I've got way better things to do with my time that argue with the
t/k/r mutual admiration B.S. machine and read supportive prattle by a few calc collection fetishists...(hey guys (Ettiene and Massimo et. al.) u did not have to weigh in on a scrap between a few techies...)

Then please go do them.

Or clean up your act if you want to hang around here.

Did you check that frequency? The "Timer Chip detailed description" states "32768 Hz". (Available on TOS). I don't say your statement ist wrong, but in theory it should be 32KHz.


The Phineas specification also states:

I in operation = 1mA

24 uA standby

32768 Hz clock input. Prescaler : 175/57344

"This results in a 100 Hz signal..."

As the specification is for the Time Module, not for the 41cx, the 41cx current may be lower.

Edited: 1 Nov 2005, 7:59 a.m.


On the other hand...

Don, besides the 32KHz in the Timer chip description, I also found the 10240 Hz in the manual:
HP41cx owners manual II, appendix. In the section where the calculation of the accuracy factor ist described, it states the internal cycle is 10240 Hz.

Quote:
Hi Tony,

10240 Hz (to get 1/100th secs easily).


Can you please explain to me how you _easily_ get 100Hz from 10240Hz? I can think of several ways it can be done, but none are 'easy', and all would also work starting from 32768Hz. Starting with 12800Hz would make it 'easy' (divide by 2^7).

Every $5 digital watch has a stopwatch mode which reads down to 1/100 s. Every $5 digital watch that I've ever seen has a 32768Hz crystal (I am willing to accept that there are, or have been, digital watches with other crystal frequencies, but they sure are not common).

Quote:


Why do you guess tech. details? RTFM mate.


Can you please give me the title of any HP manual, or for that matter any other reliable source, that specifies that the time module or 41CX use a 10240Hz crystal? Because I have a couple of references that specify 32768Hz.

Quote:

Thanks for clueing me in on the source of the error riddent 41 schematic.


Are you implying that I produced a 41 schematic? Check your facts, please. I did not. Why would I? I've got the offical service manual on the shelf.

I said I produced schematics for 'almost all' of the handhelds. That's the ones where there aren't official manuals available -- thus excluding the 97, 41, 71 and 75. Official manuals for those 4 machines are around.

I suggest you learn to read and stop posting defamatory comments. If you do not do the latter, I shall, reluctantly, be forced to take this considerably further

Quote:

I've got way better things to do with my time that argue with the
t/k/r mutual admiration B.S. machine and read supportive prattle by a few calc collection fetishists...(hey guys (Ettiene and Massimo et. al.) u did not have to weigh in on a scrap between a few techies...)


I feel like saying 'thank goodness for that', in that it means you'll not be posting here any more. But I guess that is too much to hope for.

dw

[/quote]

-tony

Don,

I'll take your direct lack of response to my two questions as Don once again, doing only what Don wants to do.

So it's okay to make denigrating posts and when asked for justification you say you don't have to? That simple eh? My my, aren't we above it all.

And just for the record, about rechargeables... the original thread was about using modern nimh cells in 41's, not nicads. You said yourself "those are a different kettle of fish".

Let's not talk about computer motherboards, let's stick to 41's shall we? So far, of the seventy four 82120A's that I've rebuilt, only one had any significant corrosion that caused the 41 to need repair, minor at that. That's my experience as it pertains directly to the 41, all that really matters here. I think that is far more relevant than your anecdotal evidence of one nicad pack on your 41 with a timer, mother boards nonwithstanding.

On the topic of 41 displays, my evidence shows that removing and cleaning the elastomers works about 40% of the time. This does not apply to the original Ampleflex interconnects, I find a lower repair rate there, especially when the unit experienced a battery leak. FWIW, my current sample size is 52. The remaining 60% almost evenly divides between bad hybrids and bad lcds. Take out the older gold interconnects and the sample is 39 units.

As further support of this evidence, I'll point you to HP service note 41C-35 under the topic "Testing", paragraph G: "Display fades out/Missing Segments/Strange characters in display". They cite in order of occurance:

  1. Check for cold solder joints between display and keyboard.
  2. Check display connections (P/N 1251-5400)
  3. Replace display driver hybrid
  4. Replace display (1PT1-0001)

There you have it, straight from Corvallis.

Is there anything else you want ME to justify? Oh, gee, wait, it's your turn first.

Why don't we just give this up Don? Really. It's a waste of time since there seems to be nothing that you already don't know nor seem to want to learn, especially from us "hobbyists". Or am I just a hack?


Edited: 30 Oct 2005, 3:13 p.m.

Don --

I was quite pleased to see Tony and Randy respond directly and eloquently. They covered quite well the topics they chose to address .

You finally took the opportunity to elaborate specifically upon your assertions. I, like Tony, had difficulty following the the "line of logic" in your explanations. Tony covered the issue of standby- and timer current; I have some comments about the NiCd batteries:

Quote:
...NiCds are in practice much more troublesome. The difference in discharge characteristics (disch. slope, knee voltage and "flat-cell" cliff) and cell chemistry means with nicd cells you don't get adequate warning from the low battery indicator of some incremental damage occuring when using tired nicd cells....

This discussion is rather vague, in my estimation. You mention "difference in discharge characteristics ... and cell chemistry" without describing what they are. The last part of that excerpt is rather confusing, because low battery indicators cannot possibly give "adequate warning ... of some incremental damage occuring..." And what does "tired" mean -- near the end of its service life, or merely discharged?

Here's what I think you're trying to state (without my judging if it is correct):

"NiCd cells internally self-discharge, and discharge at a slightly higher rate if a timer is being run. The resultant outgassing can cause corrosion over time. Since NiCd cells tend to maintain high output voltage even when significantly discharged, the low-battery indicator does not activate very early in the discharging process, which could otherwise alert the user of possible damage."

Is my "translation" substantially right? (I'll admit now that I'm not an electronics engineer or technician, or even a chemist, but do have a BSEE & MSEE in the area of power sytems.)

In summary, your explanations do not suggest to me a level of expertise that you have claimed to compare so favorably with that of others.

Quote:
To Karl: Randy doesn't need your support and you didn't help anyone. You just displayed your personality. Oh and a bunger is a firecracker, btw. Was that the oz lingo you referred to?

I'll stand up for anyone I please, until that person asks me not to. Is that clear, Don? I didn't know if he was monitoring your public smears, but I'm glad that he did -- I wasn't about to let them go unchallenged.

On the issue of personality and people "going off like a firecracker/bunger", many of us -- including the website owner -- have already spoken in this thread. Readers can determine for themselves whose personality could be described as pyrotechnic.

-- KS


Edited: 30 Oct 2005, 4:48 p.m.

I'd watch it responding to those Amazon and PayPal warnings, Don. It sounds like "phishing" to me. That's where email is sent that looks like an official communication from some company you do business with. Your bank, eBay, PayPal or Amazon, for example. The mail tells you there have been attempts to access your account, and that as a result your access has been suspended. There is usually a link in the email that looks like it leads to the official site in question, but it really lands you at the bad guy's site. There you are asked to enter personal information, including your credit card info.

I don't know if the messages you got match that profile, but if they do, my advice is not to click on anything in the email. Also, I find it hard to believe anyone here would attempt abuse of that nature. Putting aside the violation of simple human decency that would represent, there's also the real possibility that anyone attempting something like that would get caught. So don't read too much into events that may well be unrelated.

Regards,

Howard


Hi Howard,

Thanks mate for the warning. That has occurred to me.

Until I posted ads here I was not ever deluged with bizarre requests from idiots in Nigeria (rolling on the floor pmsl...) trying scams on me. My fault for dropping an e-mail address into the mix along with my real name.

As an A.S. sufferer, I have been very viciously setup in RL, to my extreme detriment. So I am (perhaps too) vigilant to scams and subtle social engineering by people ANYWHERE on the net in atempting to exploit me, smear me or rip my banking passwords.

I apologize to all here for my rather sensitive trigger finger. Here's no place to vent... even IF provoked.

Kind regards, man!

Don Wallace

Quote:
P.S. To certain people, Please don't cuss/criticize me in latin...

I never cussed you nor anybody else, my dear.
If a quote from Cicero makes you feel cursed I'm sorry.
I translated it into english for you, however, so you can see that I am no sorcerer.

Quote:
No doubt you would be able to faithfully render into latin the phrase: Get a Life...

And that's exactly what I hope you'll get.
Please stop with this Conspiracy Theory.

Greetings,
Massimo


Hi Massimo,

I owe you an apology. My repsonse was meant for the person who
posted (according to another person who can read latin) a latin obscenity. That's MY mistake.

All this over my warning people about two ways of wrecking an old calculator! Amazing!

DW


Quote:
I owe you an apology. My repsonse was meant for the person who posted (according to another person who can read latin) a latin obscenity. That's MY mistake.

Thanks Don, you finally realized that.

Chapter closed.

Let's all share what we know and try to understand what we don't.

Massimo


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