Bring back ....



#38

I am amazed at the "bring back the 15C" nostaligia. Why stop there? How about bring back the 41CX? Or even the 67??? How about the 67CX (well it never was real to begin with)!

I have a much better solution that will make us ALL very happy on this website ... yes EACH AND EVRRYONE!

How about asking HP to turn back time! This way we ALL get one or more models we like!! Why chose just one??? WE GET THEM ALL.

So here I go!

HP! If you are listening. BRING BACK THE PAST!!!

There!!! Now we can ALL SIT BACK, RELAX, SMILE, AND WAIT FOR ALL THOSE BEAUTIES TO BE REAL AGAIN!

Hop HP will do it's magic by HHC2005 .. or even by HHC2006. I will wait for a year.


#39

Now that is the true spirit of nostalgia! 8)

There was an old joke about IBM that claimed they had invented a computer that was faster than light. As a result, it could predict the future. So IBM started delivering mainframes before the customer knew they needed one. 8)


#40

"There was an old joke about IBM that claimed they had invented a computer that was faster than light. As a result, it could predict the future. So IBM started delivering mainframes before the customer knew they needed one. 8)"

I'm not sure about actual delivery, but they sure as heck would promise something long before they could really deliver it! This is back in the '60s.

#41

Reissues of classic machines could actually be quite a cash cow for HP. The 15C would be a logical starting point. I don't know if the 12C uses the same CPU design as original voyagers, but if they do I would assume they could acquire a ROM dump from the community and be in business. Bring quality standards up to or exceeding those of the originals and it could be back on the market for the cost of tooling. Set a price point between $100-$150, ducplicate the original packaging and manual.

It's very low risk, and due to sunk costs for LCD, enclosure, and perhaps even the PCB I would imagine the margin would be astronomical. Injection molding the keys might cost $10k for tooling, but that's a drop in the bucket. Best of all, it wouldn't be competing with any of their current RPN scientific models. The price point, styling, and features set it apart.


#42

I think ou are overestimating the market for "classic" calculators by far. Surely, almost everyone here in this forum might buy re-issued classic HPs (not the Kinpo crap), but this collector's forum is the exception.

Look how the market for handheld devices is evolving: the calculator functionality is just an add-on of almost all mobile phones nowadays. Surely this is only the standard +-*/ calculator style, but apparently nowadays most people do no longer need computing power like a HP41 as a handheld - PCs with more speed and functionality are ubiquituous.

See the decrease of the BASIC-style Casio sliderules - does anyone, except collectors, still feel the need to have one and to program it - seriously? Their time was over when people could get C64 and Apple with faster or better BASIC built in.

Even if HP could make insane profits by buildung a classic HP calculator for 5$ and sell it for 100$ (but then: why not build it for 1$ at Kinpo and increase profit further?), would anyone seriously expect that people (again: collectors and students excluded) buy such a "calculator-something" with strange UPN entry logic for 100$ when you could get some noname-throwaway for 5$ at the local Walmart? Quality is no longer an argument - see again the mobile phone market - it may be crap, but it must be stylish and new, and your pals shouldn't have it already.

It is not a technical issue anymore.


#43

Hi all.

Right On, Volger...!

It's sad, but the past IS JUST THAT: *past*.

However, at least people here have a place to chew the fat
WITH FREINDS over the technical achievements of the 1970's, probably to be remembered ten years from now as THE HEIGHT OF CIVILZATION, when we all had nothing to worry about except
when gas was going to pass 50 cents a gallon or whether we
could scrape enough money together to buy that really nice
State-Of-The-Art Stanton cartridge for the turntable we wanted
to buy. Maybe if we worked in *aerospace we were worried
about getting laid off, or were in high school, just worried
about getting laid, (not fretting about Aids, Peak Oil and Permanent War... or permanent unemployment.)

This IS just my opinion, but I think we are at an unusual point
in history. Lets enjoy the nostalgia and camaraderie while we
still have the time and luxury for such indulgences...

As for me I may have had most of my CD's stolen, (and other more serious personal stuff I cannot share with you all) but I
still have my STAX (SR5) headphones.... and my ageing hp 41CV.
As important but no more or less so, is my hearing bandwidth to appreciate the STAX and my knowledge of maths and electronics
and the accuity to appreciate and actually USE as a NEED, the performance of the hp41...

Whether I still have my perspective and mental health,
well I leave THAT to the reader to judge.
At least I haven't lost my sense of **humour
(**yeah we spell it that way over here ;-)

Peace, Man! ;-)

Don W
P.S.:

* jokes my lecturer told us: (he claimed to have worked at
Lockheed in the mid seventies. I dunno...)

What's the definition of an optimist?
A Lockheed engineer who brings his lunch to work.

What's the defintion of a pessimist?
One who leaves his car running in the driveway.

Apologies if I have unwittingly offended anyone...

#44

In the mid 80s I had the chance to intreview Dr Jean Ichbia, teh father of the Ada language. He said something interesting about programming languages that seems even more true about our affinity to vintage HP calculators. Ichbia said "Programming languages are our interface with machines. We like to have new machines that are more powerful, yet we want to use the same programming languages to work with them."

The old HP calculator were new, cool, and empowering of us in our jobs and tasks. This was at a time when computers were not commonly used. We learned how to program these calculators. We mastered tricks of using the stack, indirect addressing, program flow control. We invested a lot of ourselves. Somehow we made a man-machine connection that made us stand out a bit -- we were the geeks that had those cool calculators.

The advent of the PC (generically speaking) seriously challenged the old HP calculators. The PCs became the new HYPERCALCULATOR that has a compfotable keyboard, screen, storgae device, printers, modems, and so on.

Part of us still years for that past. I think there is a big psychological factor here. I ask myself "What does that era represent to me?" Calculators came at an age when I was finishing college and starting to work. It represents an era of hope and potential. Maybe we are longing to go back in that era and cut a new path. Perhaps after all it's about our personal history and making choices .. more so than teh actual vintage calculators.

#45

Quote:
See the decrease of the BASIC-style Casio sliderules - does anyone, except collectors, still feel the need to have one and to program it - seriously? Their time was over when people could get C64 and Apple with faster or better BASIC built in.




That's not the point. It was the willingness to PROGRAM (in any language) that vanished at that time. Average people were no longer 'programmers', but 'users'. Now they have become 'customers' or even 'consumers'.


Everyone has nostaligia for her (P.C. here) teenage years --- and it is not wrong ! Go calculator nostalgia !

#46

I'm not so sure that programming has changed, just the things that users used to program have migrated to spreadsheets, or other custom software that provides functionality.

I am employed writing software that handles transactions on gas pipelines. Our users might once have 'allocated' gas to transactions using little programs, one aggregate point at a time. Now they simply 'program' how the software should do it, and assuming I've done my job, the software will pretty much do what the user wants, in a few minutes, for an entire pipeline.

It's still programming, just a bit more removed. And incidentally, I've never actually seen the box that my stuff runs on, but I think it's some NT cluster in a serverroom. That's kinda sad.

#47

Hi GE,

Quote:
That's not the point. It was the willingness to PROGRAM (in any language) that vanished at that time. Average people were no longer 'programmers', but 'users'. Now they have become 'customers' or even 'consumers'.

Infact, I do agree this is one point that can be obeserved frequently nowadays. OTOH, the market for the programmable calcs was never the common "need a mobile with MP3 and camera built in" people but the scientific, engineering community - they still have the need to have a suitable tool to solve their problems. And they do still write programs, maybe clicking them together with a Visual BASIC GUI, or write stuff down in Mathematica or Maple, or even write C++ with a VI under Linux. Problems are still there.

But maybe the skills to write efficient code has vanished. With a PC, you basically wouldn't need FOR loops any more - you could afford copying&pasting the loop body N times (if this wouldn't need so many mouse clicks. You have a wealth of CPU and RAM resources, so you wouldn't need to think about fitting your calculation into meager 6144 bytes - just throw your poor hack onto the PC using 1GB memory and 10GB disk space (useless, but slick animation gimmicks included). I am still amazed what people those days could get out of a PDP-8 with their CPU almost as powerful as todays wristwatches ;-)
Such knowledge and skills are gone, or rather they just still live in the memories of old men. Likewise to vintage calcs.

#48

Quote:
Reissues of classic machines could actually be quite a cash cow for HP. The 15C would be a logical starting point. I don't know if the 12C uses the same CPU design as original voyagers, but if they do I would assume they could acquire a ROM dump from the community and be in business. Bring quality standards up to or exceeding those of the originals and it could be back on the market for the cost of tooling. Set a price point between $100-$150, ducplicate the original packaging and manual.

Hugh,

No way.

The biggest cost for most calcs today is not hardware but the packaging, marketing and jostling for shelf space at major merchandisers. (At quite a few stores you have to PAY to be on the shelf in a decent position.)

An HP15C-like calc can be made for $2-$3 in mass qtys. ($0.40 microcontroller, $.70 display, $1 case/KB, $0.35 batts) Maybe $5 if good keypad is used. If a manual is included (more than a folded sheet) add another $1.

HP wouldn't be able to roll this out either without getting a lot of staff involved - so whatever profits were even remotely there would be gone.

And then there's the 'marketing slot' issue. Even if an HP15C could be produced FOR FREE, it'd still cost at least $25ish to get on the shelf and that would be profoundly difficult since it would be an 'oddball' (RPN, etc.) Special marketing programs would need to be created just to get them to move off the shelf today. HP has a hard enough time competing against TI right now.

The teeming hordes now buying calcs are primary school kids, college students, etc. They just wanna press buttons. Elegance has no say anymore. People doing 'serious' math professionally are in general using desktop tools like Matlab, Maple, Excel etc. - and use a calc just for quick 'pushbutton' answers.

I think the only company that could make a calc like an HP-1X series and make a bit of money over long term would be a company like Calculated Industries who makes specialized calculators for very small markets (construction estimators, etc.) and can keep them in inventory for a long lifespan.


Bill Wiese

San Jose, CA USA


#49

The market is by no means huge, but obviously the 15c is selling steadily on ebay for example. Do you really think all of the units sold on ebay are going to collectors? I would venture to guess that most are bought as replacements.

There is no way it could be sold in any great volume. The only redeeming value is profit on the order of 2000%. I seriously doubt a 15c reissue would be viable as a retail shelf item.

In short: it could be done but is too obscure for a company such as HP.


#50

There are other channels besides brick-and-mortar stores. Recall that the original HP calcs were sold exclusively through the few hundred HP sales offices. It would be possible to sell, at much lower cost, through web channels, and bypass the stores entirely. How about an entire product family of HP Classics, kind of like the way Disney opens up their vault every few years. Tool up the factory, crank out a million units, and sell until gone. Then move on to another model.


#51

I have mentioned this a few times in the web site. In last year's HHC2004 Richard Nelson proposed to HP to make an HP-45-like calculator that is so inexpensive that HP can give it away to teachers. This simple RPN calculator would get more teachers interested in RPN and RPN calculators.

I see a lot of merit in Richard's request, and he certainly knows the whole history of RPN calculators.

I think we can ask HP about this. I will certainly mention it to Cyril (the HP R&D guy) this HHC2005.

#52

Quote:
The market is by no means huge, but obviously the 15c is selling steadily on ebay for example. Do you really think all of the units sold on ebay are going to collectors? I would venture to guess that most are bought as replacements.

eBay is a special kind of market. And HP calculators are also a special kind of product. Surely many of them will go as replacements, maybe another large quantity is acquired for students' exams - given the strict NCEES rules the common "scientific calc" crap at retailer's shops appear to be too lousy, and high-end alphanumeric stuff is ridiculously forbidden. Vintage calcs of the 70s and 80s fill a specific gap there. The HP-33 is an example, but it seems to be in competition with the cheap "scientifc calc" - too large a risk for HP marketing wimps who changed HP from a high-end, high-quality manufacturer to one of several ink-cartridge sellers.

HP vintage calcs might be revived, but as sure as the amen in the church, not by HP.

#53

Hi Bill. I couldn't agree more...

By the way, I really liked your book n synthetic programming.
I bought it in 1981 while convalescing after I left officer training in the Australian Air Force. It really fascinated me and helped me relax and get back my interest in life. That, and listening to Steely Dan and Supertramp records, among others.

Cheers,

Don Wallace
http://donwallace.customer/netspace.net.au

#54

Great point, Namir! I've never truly understood the passion that many have here for simple scientific calcs. They always rationalize it with the "pocketsize" argument. I used scientifics for years, but when the HP48 came out, what a great thing that was. The 48/49 series is very easily carried around, and at least a hundred times more powerful than any scientific, thus infinitely more useful.


#55

Poor old Mr Hewlett and Dave Packard must be rolling in their graves...

Don W


#56

Why would Bill and Dave be rolling in their graves?


#57

Bill Hewlett already had a production line of desktop calculators, when he got fet up with status quo and decided engineers needed a calculator that would fit in their shirt pocket. He origninally was only going to manufacture the Hp35 for internal use as his bean counters said there was no real market for it.

Does you Hp48/49G fit in your shirt pocket?

I believe that is why Bill might just turn over. Your embracing the situation, might make it twice.

That the Hp48/49g series is an ultra powerful computing device is without question. That it is a portable pocket calculator is stretching the definition of both portable and pocket.


#58

Couldn't have said it better, Ron

DW

#59

"If anyone wants a CAS, they should use Mathematica on a PC" sounds like an argument similar to "If anyone wants scientific functions, they should use a desktop calculator" in the '60's.

Or, "For a pocket calculator, 4 functions is sufficient" from the 60's is like "For a pocket calculator, traditional scientific functions are sufficient."

I think the HP48/49 have the most powerful handheld mathematical tools at an affordable price. It doesn't seem that different to me from Hewlett's original goals. But I guess they don't fit in a shirt pocket (a pants pocket, maybe).

#60

What's so special about a shirt pocket? Why not a pants pocket? For years the nerdy thing with slide rules was a custom leather case hung off the belt. Remember the HP41 belt case? My Dad used one of those.

I just don't see a calc's ability to fit a shirt pocket as anything special, except to say small and underpowered.


#61

Hi all. HI I,Claudius.

I realise I was misinterpreted. The 48 is really, really smooth!

I lament the LOSS OF EXPERTISE in the modern crop of
"programmers' and "engineers". Likewise the whole attitude
of people in a society where the skill level on average has
dropped so far that SOME managers and technicians can no longer
do basic things central to their roles. This is all glossed over with savvy back-stabbing of those more capable than they are.
Some of the latest incumbents are so thick that you can't even
have a technical CONVERSATION with them... They just have no background to draw on or work with...

Then people in wider society wonder WHY they can't get their computer networks / multi-user systems straightened out, or their calculators or digital equipment repaired AT THE CHIP LEVEL anymore.

Of course change is inevitable, Seneca said that about 2000 years
ago. But although they could send men to the moon in the late 1960's (a waste of money though), dealing with terrorism and natural disaster seems TOTALLY beyond the capacity of the present civilization (Government). With New Orleans, Time will tell. I think the tale will pan out to be an unparalleled HORROR STORY.

Over here where I come from, in my opinion the incompetence
of management is so bad that the Queensland Government and it's health department apparently could not even screen a rogue surgeon from Portland, who it seems through his very poor work killed about 85 people in the city of Bundaberg. The fall-out from this has been tremendous... Even, worse, it seems he wasn't the only crook surgeon they let through...

There is no doubt among anyone of us with a brain and a memory that the standards generally have fallen a LONG WAY.......!

That's what I lament: Loss of Quality in trained people.
That is reflected in some of the mdern products from some companies like Hewlett Packard.

I think the 48/49 are FUNCTIONALLY great. Whether anyone will still be computing on one in the year 2017 is another question entirely.
If they are then that alone will vouch for their BUILD QUALITY.

DW


#62

Hi all. Hi Crawl.

Just a note about your comment: In the '60's THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS A POCKET CALCULATOR... They appeared in the early '70's
In the '60's most machines were bare four function desktops built with RTL logic and over a thousand discrete transitors with percent, percent change and sqaure root. I know because I saw a few. Display was by a gang of NIXIE tubes. That's why the 9800
with a CRT to display three registers was such a big deal in 1968. And that's why the HP engineering calc range was/is such a big deal. They are (very) dated, but man, do they date WELL...

I am inclined to think the 48/49 is overkill but if I had one
I suppose I would fall in love with it... not too sure about that.

In 1968 DEC PDP-8's were a very common mini-computer around the place. In the mid seventies there were some DATA GENERAL NOVAs
around and by 1978 DG had a 32 bit machine (Eagle) which was back compatible to the NOVA. The MICRONOVA was released as a VLSI
chipset in 1978 I think.

1981 saw the PDP-11 series of machines which had a range of buss widths and processor speeds. All done mainly with TTL OC logic.
Floating point support was implemented in two VLSI chips.
1981 also saw early productio of the CV, at a time when
a personal computer ran BASIC in ROM, had no real operating system and loaded from cassette. The TRS-80 in 1978 shipped in basic config with 4 k RAM and NO TRIGS AT ALL in ROM... Think about it.

1982? DEC VAXes came along and were obsolete by 1985.

Even UNIX was still quite raw at that time, even though it had
been around since 1970.

So for it's time the HP41 series was very cutting edge - and very practical. The 48 is a completely different animal and if I had a 48 I would still want a 41CV...(as well). They are totally irreplaceable (imho). Mine is 24 1/2 years old and still going strong after five repairs by myself.

How USEABLE is the graphics on a 48?....

DW

#63

Understand your point completely. I think it boils down to people love what they know. The majority of posters here used and grew up with the "pocketsize" hp scientifics, love them, and lament the fact they're no longer made.

As far as the breakdown in technological capability, yes, fewer US kids are going into engineering. We're being swamped with Indians and Chinese and so on. But there are still a lot of bright kids out there who love gadgets and science, so there's hope for the future.

Edited: 4 Sept 2005, 7:53 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#64

Hi I, Claudius....

Aaaah, I don't think you do, actually.....

What follows is just my opinion:

That standards are slipping has nothing to do with
Indian or Asian students....

The quality of students, INDEPENDENT of race, is slipping.

The quality of AMERICAN students is slipping.

Modern students (of any age) are NOT AS GOOD as students who did those courses twenty years ago.

The education system is DETERIORATING.

I'll stop here.

DW


#65

The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
-- Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC


#66

It's all cyclical, what can I say? >:P=

DW

#67

It is interesting to note that AT THAT TIME the WORLD WAS
ENDING. . . for the Assyrians.

I think they got overrun by the Egyptians???

Certain modern Nations can learn a lot from history...
But of course, we never do. Why is that?

DW

#68

Why NOT just run Mathematica on a notepad???

DW


#69

> 1Kbuck non-academic license, maybe? 8)


#70

Hi Howard.

How many people here NEED mathematica? Or a hp 48G? ;-)

DW
P.S. There is some really good GPL maths software available.
Quantian is a complete Linux distribution with some really
powerful applications bundled with it.
Persoanlly, I like Mathcad, although it is somewhat dated.


#71

MathCAD has a niche following but has many limitations. Try to solve a symbolic difeq with it sometime. Mathematica is the premier math software. A close second is the not so well known Scientific Workplace, an outstanding math word processor coupled with the MuPAD CAS. The new 5.5 version is superb, runs rings around MathCAD, infinitely more useful.


#72

I know MuPAD is freeware or otherwise obtainable at low cost. Is "Scientific Workstation" similarly available?

I would love to use Mathematica to do some self-directed learning, but the non-academic price is just too steep. (Since I can't justify it in terms of work.)

Edited: 3 Sept 2005, 11:08 p.m.

#73

Hi I, Claudius. Thanks for the info.

Yeah Mathcad is certianly a niche thing...
Hairy darn thing, but I used it a bit to do FFTs on
live loudspeaker samples of pink noise and SINX waveforms.
You just feed the speaker a suitable repetitive SINX
signal and then fft the sample. Out comes a nice clean
frequency spectrum...

DW

#74

I'm going to raise some dust here. Nothing personal of course.

Quote:
Why stop there? How about bring back the 41CX?

and
Quote:
but apparently nowadays most people do no longer need computing power like a HP41 as a handheld - PCs with more speed and functionality are ubiquituous.

Even though I have two PCs on my desk (actually one is on the floor, but the two share the same monitor and keyboard), I still use my 41cx every day. Why? Because it's far better for certain jobs, regardless of the comparison of computing power.

Quote:
See the decrease of the BASIC-style Casio sliderules - does anyone, except collectors, still feel the need to have one and to program it - seriously? Their time was over when people could get C64 and Apple with faster or better BASIC built in.

I've never seen a BASIC as good as what's in my HP-71, which is due partly to all the LEX-file contributions from the user groups. After having used that a lot, we got a desktop PC to control automated test equipment in about 1989, and used HP's Rocky Mountain BASIC which turned out to be a huge disappointment. It was nowhere near as good as the 71. And as for the C64 and Apple II, as great as they were, their BASICs scored a zero compared to the hand-held HP-71's BASIC.
Quote:
The advent of the PC (generically speaking) seriously challenged the old HP calculators.

I totally disagree. The two have different functions. Some "visionaries" and marketing departments are always pushing to make one gadget do the functions of several. Some of the things they think of are about as apetizing as combining the toilet and the food processor.

We had tons of high-dollar HP RF test equipment where I was working in the mid-1980's (not the same job mentioned above), but much of it was used in engineering, not production. One day the HP rep brought in a HP3421A data acquisition unit with the optional relay card to be tried on a production setup. One of the engineers who had his own HP41cv took 20 minutes to write a program to control the production test. As I recall, it worked right the first time. It took a lot longer to set up the instruments that had to be connected to the 3421 than to write the program. Several engineers were called for a demo, including managers. Everyone was impressed. A requisition was filled out that included a 41cv with HPIL. Unfortunately, that part of the req was denied, with the explanation that the 41 would be much too easy to steal. So they opted for an IBM PC at several times the price and workbench space and no portability. The IEEE-488 card and software was included of course. It took weeks to get anything working with it, compared to the 20 minutes it took on the 41cv. I realize of course that PC software has come a long way since then in user-friendliness, but I think it still would not be able to compete in a productivity contest of this kind.

The PC will always need a big screen; and generally, the higher the resolution, the better. The hand-held, on the other hand, needs to be hand-held. In my case it has nothing to do with putting it in my pocket (which I would never do because that's a recipe to quickly ruin it by sitting on it, letting it fall out, etc.). I need to be able to take it with me from the desk to the workbench for example, or to another room, while in the middle of calculations or entering data to process. Even a laptop is much to big for this.

Quote:
With a PC, you basically wouldn't need FOR loops any more - you could afford copying&pasting the loop body N times

If you've ever done any programming you should know that sometimes the value of N will be unknown until immediately before entering the loop, or it may not be the same every time you run the program, depending on conditions.
Quote:
just throw your poor hack onto the PC using 1GB memory and 10GB disk space

...and how long will that take to load up, compared to the calculator that's instant-on?
Quote:
And then there's the 'marketing slot' issue. Even if an HP15C could be produced FOR FREE, it'd still cost at least $25ish to get on the shelf and that would be profoundly difficult since it would be an 'oddball' (RPN, etc.)

That's irrelevant. The high-end HP calculator market was always kind of a niche market, and would still be today if these little machines were put back into production. Even in their heyday, the ones that were even in a store with a storefront were locked up in glass display cases. I bought most (maybe all) of my hand-held HP equipment through mail order.

As more than one person said however, there does seem to be a strong correlation to a loss in the kind of reasoning it takes to be a good programmer or engineer. The electronics industry magazines have a constant debate over the declining engineering-school enrollment and graduations in the U.S., and whether or not there really is a shortage of engineers, or will be soon. The 'shortage' part of the debate does not look like it will have any clear conclusions anytime soon.

Edited: 4 Sept 2005, 2:22 a.m.


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