A National Energy/Recycling Plan (Long)


Perhaps the U.S. could help its energy problems by having a National Energy/Recycling plan as other countries do. For example, I like cars, but the supply of oil and gas is not limitless. Toyota and other Japanese companies are marketting hybrid cars. Japan is even more dependent on overseas oil (not to mention other raw materials) than the U.S. It was Japan's feeling of being strangled/pressured by the U.S. that led them to start World War II in the Pacific. Recycling started decades before in Japan and Europe than in the U.S. because they have very limited landfill space. Recycling an Aluminum can takes about 5% of the energy as it does to produce a brand new Aluminum can from raw Bauxite ore. I remember watching an episode of the old "To Tell The Truth Show" about 1976 when the topic was about a company that made a house from mostly recycled material valued at $60,000 (that's 1976 dollars). When I used to go to Michigan International Speedway and Indianapolis Motor Speeday in the 1980's and 1990's I was surprised at how many bottles and cans were thrown on the infield areas. Where I work we have paper recycling bins that are emptied into larger paper recycling dumpsters. I know such a plan will take time, but what could be done to speed up such a process?


Sorry, but I dont get the connection with obsolete HP calculators.


HP calculators are never obsolete! The are timeless by design;)




When I buy one it is obsolete electronics. If I want to sell one, which I don't do very often, then it is an historic combination of art and technology created and implemented with near perfect bio-metrics. - maybe bio-metrics is not the proper word.


How about the Kyoto Treaty, which was rejected by the world's biggest polluter, the USA, because it would "damage their economy"?


IMO, Kyoto is a fraud.

Even if all the countries signed onto it, projections call for a 0.5 degree reduction from what the temperature would be in 100 years ANYWAY.

All that for $150 billion a year for 100 years. Wow. That's a lot of money.

How about $$ to get rid of malaria? How about $$ to get rid of AIDS?

My point is really this: Is spending $150 billion x 100 the best use of that money over the next 100 years?

The USA decided no.

Europe, who by and large signed up for Kyoto is nowhere near meeting the targets either.

And, it might do well to read this book:


The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg

Quote: "This is one of the most valuable books on public policy - not merely on environmental policy - to have been written for the intelligent general reader in the past ten years. The Skeptical Environmentalist is a triumph." The Economist "...a superbly documented and readable book." Wall Street Journal "...it is a surprise to meet someone who calls himself an environmentalist but who asserts that things are getting better....Strange to say, the author of this happy thesis is not a steely-eyed economist at a conservative Washington think tank but a vegetarian, backpack-toting academic who was a member of Greenpeace for four years....The primary target of the books, a substantial work of analysis with almost 3.000 footnotes, are statements made by environemtal organizations like the Worldwatch Institute, the World Wildlife Fund and Greenpeace. He refers to the persistently gloomy fate from these groups as the Litany, a collection of statements that he argues are exaggerations or outright myths." Science of the Times/New York Times "The Skeptical Environmentalist should be read by every environmentalist, so that the appalling errors of fact the environmental movement has made in the past are not repeated. A brilliant and powerful book." Matt Ridley, Author of Genome "Lomborg pulls off the remarkable feat of welding the techno-optimism of the Internet age with a lefty's concern for the fate of the planet." Rolling Stone "Bjørn Lomborg is an outstanding representative of the "new breed" of political scientists--mathematically-skilled and computer-adept. In this book he shows himself also to be a hardheaded, empirically oriented analyst. Surveying a vast amount of data and taking account of a wide range of more and less informed opinion about environmental threats facing the planet, he comes to a balanced assessment of which ones are real and which are over-hyped. In vigorous and what needs not to be done about those turning out to be pseudo-problems." Professor Jack Hirshleifer, Department of Economics, UCLA "The Skeptical Environmentalist should be read by every environmentalist, so that the appalling errors of fact the environmental movement has made in the past are not repeated. A brilliant and powerful book." Matt Ridley, Author of Genome "When Lomborg concludes that '...the loss of the world's rainforests, of fertile agricultural land, the ozone layer and of the climate balance are terrible...' I agree. But we also need debate, and this book provides us with that in generous amounts, incl 2428 footnotes. If you, like I do, belong to the people who dare to think the world is making some progress, but always with mistakes to be corrected, this book makes important reading." Professor Lars Kristoferson, Secretary General, WWF Sweden "Lomborg's book sheds needed light on the real state of the world. I recommend it to anyone interested in our global environment...the book is a credible attempt at refuting many of the more outrageous environmentalist claims--a point of view that is seldom heard. The Skeptical Environmentalist is the most valuable book available in many years on public policy in general, not only environmental policy in particular. It should be required reading for all legislators, government bureaucrats and corporate executives who preside over the ever-increasing array of environmental regulations and policies." Geotimes "Lomborg is right on his points, that his critique of much green activism and its reporting in the media is just, and, above all, that where there is room for disagreement, Mr Lomborg invites and facilitates discussion, rather than seeking to silence it." The Economist Feb 2002"

All for now.


If you can parallelize the problem, write it onto 40 million sets of HP82104A cards. Then find 40 million 41C owners, perhaps through an auction on eBay, and mail them each a set of cards. Have them run the problem and mail (e or snail) you back the results. Use an HP-48GX to integrate the final answer, and publish it here. You'll be a hero! 8)

Just to be clear, I don't think environmental matters are intriniscly funny. I do think an off-topic post like that deserves some sort of response. 8)


Frank Travis write:
> It was Japan's feeling of being strangled/pressured by
> the U.S. that led them to start World War II

Please do not quote Japanese propaganda in this forum.
During WWII Japan had imperialist ambitions, which is why it took over
most of the far east. The United States was in their way, so they launched a pre-emptive strike to get rid of the US Pacific fleet before even declaring war.



So, have the Japanese given up imperial ambition in favor of obsolete calculator collecting? Good thing! We can add their collections to the master calculator beowulf cluster (MCBC) and save the world one slow computation (massively in parallel) at a time! 8)

Just to be clear, I don't think 20th century wars in which my father fought are intrinsicly funny. But I do think that off-topic posts like that one call for some sort of response. 8)

Edited: 8 July 2005, 10:24 p.m.


If you hadn't set that straight, I would have. "Japan's feeling of being strangled/pressured" and "The United States was in their way", of course, refer to the US blockade of Japan in response to imperialistic aggression in the Far East.

-- KS


Way, way OT. This is not the history they teach in our American schools:



"visitor" (I'd bet, actually, a "regular") --

I'm not sure if you're taking issue with my post in particular or the general direction of the thread, which is indeed "way, way OT". It's just that Vassilis correctly challenged a -- shall we say -- "imprecise" statement.

If you have a specific point to make by linking us to the anti-Churchill screed at the blog site, maybe you should reveal your name and make it yourself.

-- KS


No issue with you. No point other than mock the mainstream which seems bent on repeating errors.


This is not ... teach in our American schools:

Well, usually things are more complex than school content. Such content usually tends to be somewhat shallow and biased; because the mission of the school is not to make everyone an, er, scholar on a particular matter; but to integrate people in a shared, more-or-less useable body of basic knowledge, making them a part of a society. If the result is a working part, better yet.

Alas, RPN is not taught at schools these days, as far as I know,

Please note: I have not accesed the controversial site mentioned above, so have no positive nor negative opinion about it and, by the way, about all the historic-political debate in previous messages.

Edited: 9 July 2005, 8:04 p.m.


I had no idea Churchill was a calculator enthusisast! It would have had to involve the mechanical variety up until 1941 or so. Did he know about Babbage? That certainly has never been taught in any classroom anywhere! But then, there's Bletchley Park and Alan Turing, which Churchill knew all about, of course. Are you suggesting that Turing went through all the trouble of theorizing the abstract idea of the stored program computer just to get his hands on a pocket calculator?? Sensational! I think we should put the problem of what Churchill knew and when did he know it on the MCBC and give it a spin. Who knows what fascinating things that have never shown themselves inside a classroom might be revealed?

To be clear, I don't think that character assassination in the guise of revisionist history is intrinsicly funny.. well, maybe I do..


Don't forget Vannevar Bush (no relation to George W.), the author of the trully prophetic As We May Think (1945) article describing an environment that resembles the one we are using today, exactly 50 years later.

The astonishing thing is that the article was not science fiction, but described an environment extrapolated from that was technologically feasible at the time.



Yes, a true visionary. Then there's Douglas Englebert, who invented the Macintosh. 8)

But I had no idea that Vannevar Bush invented the pocket electronic calculator! 8)

And both these gentlemen were alive at the same time as Churchill!


Mr Owen's tongue-in-cheek post has raised an interesting question in my mind. Who in history (or fiction) would or wouldn't use rpn?
If i may, i'd like to make a few conjectures: Newton, yes - Velikovski, no. Mr. Spock, yes - Dr. Spock, no. Baha'u'llah, yes - Mohammed, no. Dave Hicks, yes - David Lee Roth, no. Harry Browne, probably a 12c - any other politician i can think of, no. Dr. Dean, yes - Dr. Laura , no, Mickey Hart, yes - Karen Carpenter, no. My ex brother in law, yes - my ex wife, no. Jung, yes - Freud, no. Ursula Leguin, yes - L Ron Hubbard, no.
Any ideas on this?


I agree with your list .. espcially Jung and Freud. However, on a second thought I'd say Freud would use Polish Notation since it is based on the way we say an expression (e.g. add 1 and 2). This is inline with the speak therapy that Freud made popular. Jung might come out with something that is neither RPN nor algebraic. Maybe Jung would declare all operators are special archetypal functions and regard the intermediate stack as the unconscious part of evaluating an expression--the final result being projected by the ego.


db --

Fairly witty list about conjectured "users of RPN":

Mickey Hart, yes - Karen Carpenter, no.

Hmm, Mickey is the drummer for the "cultish" Grateful Dead; the late Ms. Carpenter (who died of Anorexia Nervosa) performed rather mainstream, conventional songs.

I assume that's the intended analogy, and that (ahem) "counting calories" accurately was not the reference ...

-- KS


Erich Von Daniken, author of "Algebraic Pocket Calculators of the Gods" - no.

Thor Heyerdahl, author of "Tiki [ENTER] Kon +" - yes.


Namir; There is more to you than kludgy programs. We should have talked more at hhc '04.
Karl; I chose Mickey Hart because he writes songs in strange timeing, like "Playing in the band" (10), The Eleven" (11), the 7 beat one that i can't think of right now, and all that polyrythimic stuff. To keep track of that; he's obviously a candidate for RPN if he doesn't already use it. Karen Carpenter got thrown in there because i couldn't think of another pop drummer's name.
Mr. Owen; I have been out off-the-wall'd. I will remember in the future that i am playing with the big kids when you are around.
Thanks for your feedback.

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