only to US!


This is the first part of a mail I got when I asked a ebay seller if he would also send his item to Switzerland. Have a look at it. I thought I was reading wrong when I first read it. Small people try to make politics! Happily this man was not elected for president:

Hi HP Collector

I don't want to get into a big political debate or trouble with ebay, but this is a PRIVATE aution and because of that, I am not dealing with any known American-hating countries or Bush-bashers, that's why I will not deal with shipping to Canada or European countries...
You have to understand that some of us are really fired up over all this anti-american stuff and we're the ones paying all the bills!! A lot of us have decided to "return the hatred"!


Hi Matthias,

I do not know the person who wrote back, but my guess (and it's only a guess and I may be off the mark) that he is using this pretext to avoid the extra few steps involved in sending a package outside the USA. This includes mainly filling a customs form. I say big deal! I will be happy to fill these forms (and I do) when I mail an eBay item to Europe or other destinations.

I do not share this person's views. I enjoy visiting Europe (I did visit France and your beautiful country this year where I met some new friends and visited childhood stomping grounds) and enjoyed my stay in Europe as a tourist and for work. There is more to life than being ego-centric and money-centric. We should feel secure enough to be able to disagree with our friends without having a fit of anger. After all, friends are friends and not employees who must agree with us on every matter to avoid losing their jobs.



I can't even receive any mail since I was in the US in September 2002. All the mail "disapers" and can't be found. I guess it has something to do with the fact that I visited Morocco a year before, I am a pilot and I study electrical engineering. That matches some points of the terrorist profile.
What sets me up is not only the fact, that they definatly check my mail, but that they throw it away afterwards! This shows that some Americans think Europeans are not worth as much as Americans and therefor can be treated diffrently.

The ebay seller could be that kind of American. Next question that comes up is, will he ship to Kerry supporters?!? :)



You can't mal from the USA but you can get mail from any OTHER country??????? Including hotspots???????


It's amazing to see that some people have such sharply cut advices on everything... All at a sudden all European countries and Canada became the enemy of Europe...

Maybe he'd gladly send to Spain, UK, and Poland...


Not to Spain anymore, I guess, since Zapatero withdrew his troops from Iraq. OTOH, citizenship of Italy may also qualify you for this seller.

But more OT: it IS indeed a private auction. The seller has the right not to sell to specific persons/countries, even for political reasons (ebay permitting), as long as they are not racist/sexist/religious. Just pass on and feel pity for his rather crude political insight if you really want to.
There are many US sellers who don't let political convictions interfere with their business.


This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted.


Yes Canadians are very nice.
I recall when in Quebec we were hiding in shadows NOT to be helped by local people.
They were TOO friendly, asking about names, stories, proposing to bring you there on their cars.
It would have taken half the day to talk with all those new friends.

I've met only good people in the US, except in one case.


This is a first. 40% of the country doesn't even like Bush. Hopefully he is trying to sell the item to the Mid West or Southern US.

However, he can sell it to whoever he wants...


I regard it just as an other little indicator that the US of A. exceeded the apex (zenith) of power and are on the down grade, similar the ancient Romans.

One question (to bring the discussion back the subject of this Forum), there once was an index which goods are not allowed to sell in communist countries. IMHO the HP-41 was on that list too. When (if at all) was that calculator taken off that list?



Hi, all; (123456 to remove)

I guess I'm the last person to post about what I'm about to, but I think that, as openminded people, you'll get the point.

I sent a private message to Matthias where I expressed my thoughts as a non-norhtamerican (a foreigner, in fact) and I actually see no trouble on posting my message publicly. What I wanted to avoid was to call the MoHPC Forum to a debate about this issues. Controversial or not, I think that, as a foreigner, I'll never have a true perspective a northamreican has, and my own point of view will be firstly based on my own experiences and the relation my country/people has with a particular country/people/government.

I also apologize (pleas, guys, forgive me) for these words, mostly because only openminded people are involved and you are completely aware of these all, but I'm affraid for the possibility of having "thirdy part" comments and ranting, I mean, non-regular contributors finding a place here for "heavy ranting" and, consequently, disturb our peace.

If other regular contributors post about this subject, I believe it's fine at all because we "e-know" each other, but have we percieved external activities from non-regular contributors or excessive ranting, I'd like having the chance to express my position against them. Or even wait for some good soul to whipe them out...

Thanks and forgive me again. I'm far from trying to do something I'm not eleged to, and I'll kindly accept any "shout up!" from you, guys.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 3 Dec 2004, 9:29 a.m.


Oh! What an appropriate verbalism: we "e-know" each other. Thank you very much for this one. Up to now I had to circumscribe that kind of acquaintanceship. Now I may say "I e-know her" and "I work(ed) on e-Doc" and "I still e-use some old HP-calculators" (in their emulators).

Tnx 4 the e-lucidation.....Mike


Hi, Mike;

it's just a shorten for "we know each other by electronic means". I am not the creator, I cannot take the ownership of the expression, I just read it once (with some other extensions, as you also pointed some by your own) and found it somehow handy.

Anyway, I was (and still am) much more concerned about the main issue.

Best regards.

Luiz (Brazil)


Sorry for the subject drift, but the main issue is _not_ a subject for this Forum. IMHO, _we_ as contributors may keep the quality of the Forum high if we do not stress the bandwidth too much. OTOH it is absolutely OK from Matthias to point fingers in this case as the replay is an issue: there _is_ definitively something wrong and he is against that. That gives us the chance to accede in public and show all ogling with the "return the hatred"-idea that they are on the wrong tack.

But: where is the limit that allows (or coerces!) an off topic append?

Ciao.....Mike (to be clear: I do not care about who uses an HP or an TI and who is uncircumcised an who is not)


Hi, Mike;

I´m not sure if you actually took my post as if it is directly to your own. By no means I inteded to address to a particular post. Yours was the last one in thread, that´s why mine was right after it.

Anyway, have you found in my words something offensive, either to the forum or to yourself, please, let me know how did it happen. I still did not get the point.

In order to avoid stressing the bandwidth, feel free writing to lcvieira at quantica dot com dot br, if you prefer.

BTW, the main issue I was refering to was not the thread issue, instead was having the chance to read posts here from others ("foreigners" to the MoHPC Forum) that would take this place as for ranting. I have seen and read your posts here, you are by no means a stranger to this forum.

Best regards.

Luiz (Brazil)

123456 to remove

Edited: 3 Dec 2004, 5:09 p.m.


This guy is an idiot. I can see not want to buy products from countries like Canada and France but what's the point of not selling things there? Selling the item outside the USA only improves our trade deficit and makes theirs worse, however insignificantly. Besides I pay fairly close attention to the news and I can see his point about Canada, France and a few others but I have never heard anything about Switzerland in this regard. I think he is just lazy, or stupid or both.

Chris W

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want & give the
gifts they want this holiday season
with the help of The Wish Zone


My first wife was Swiss and a scary percentage of Americans couldn't get straight that that didn't make her Swedish. There's a good chance the idiot in question here doesn't even know what country he's really dealing with.


This guy needs to take a chill pill. Like I said, he will not get any sales except if he was trying to sell to the MidWest/Southern US.


Hey, Matthias,

There are fools in every country.

But they TYPE of fool varies; America has had a strong history of isolationism, urged by no less than George Washington, himself (he might even be chagrined if he were here today to find a city named after himself that is essentially a center of international influence[s]).

While I myself as an American am no big fan of unrestricted, open internationalism, the reality is that we all DO LIVE on this big blue ball and in reality DO DEPEND on each other in too many ways to count.

Trading with and visiting other countries and learning about them should always be encouraged, for personal, spiritual, and cultural reasons as well as those very practical ones Mr. Platt (I think) enumerated.

If this guy doesn't like your money, don't give him any. As you said, this guy is a small spirited person; you don't see him posting here, do you? ;)


Hi folks...

I'll skip the politics here (I'll even sell a calculator to a Kerry supporter or a non-NRA member ;))... but:

When I've sold stuff on EBay I specify USA/Canada only.
I'm sorry, it's just plain easier for me - for the average widget I'd be selling if it takes too much time for me to do anything beyond mailing it, it's not worth my time selling it.

My experience on EBay has been colored by transactions by 5 Europeans and one HK resident. I am sure there are millions of other Europeans, etc. that follow thru in their deals, I just didn't run into any for my particular auctions (some DEC stuff, etc.) All my other transactions
with others have gone great.

[Before that I'd dealt with individuals from Europe on a private basis sale, non-EBay, and all was well.]

These folks that won my auctions flaked, "didn't realize how much shipping/ insurance would cost before bidding", etc. (I had of course noted that they were responsible for those costs, to be aware of that before bidding, and I would be happy to ship in the lowest cost manner they preferred.) Another one - I still have the email - said something like, "on second thought I will not have a use for this unit."

Since life's too busy to sweat the small stuff, I just try to make my life easier.

Bill Wiese

San Jose


What a bulls*, sorry. FOr international shipping you have to fill *ONE* more formular, that is all! In exchange to that you get many, many buyers more! So you will earn more money. ISn´t that the cause why you use ebay, to get that much money as you can?



I sometimes sell on ebay and sometimes will ship to Europe and elsewhere. In fact I've sold/shipped to a few of you in the past.

But sort-of in Bill's defense, it is more work to ship to Europe, not just an extra form. You have to go to the post office and wait in line, if you send packages domestically you can drop small ones (under 1 pound) in any mailbox. Larger ones can be sent though many non-post office shipping places like Post Net (they don't accept international packages). Furthermore, collecting on insurance claims is nearly impossible when you use the US Postal Service. I like to ship more valuable domestic packages via UPS because insurance claims with them are relatively painless. UPS is not generally an option when shipping to Europe because of the extreme cost.



To add to Katie's sort-of defence of Bill: If you ship overseas (except to Canada, which is fairly easy and reasonable in price) and use surface rate to cut down on cost; you can not insure it. You can register it but that makes the seller seal every seam on the box with glued paper tape so the Post Office can stamp each edge. That takes time.

Matthias and Raymond: To ship a package to Brazil today, i had to kill about a half an hour at the Post Office re-wraping and filling out two forms. I did not charge a "handling fee" on this $25 auction and it was not really worth my time to do it. In retrospect i would have taken a fifty cent lower bid to simplify my life. If one of you two buy something from me in the future - will you pay me 30 minutes at my rate of pay to deal with the trouble? I can send that hypothetical calc to the second highest bidder if he is in the US by putting it in a self sealing Priority Mail box and leaving it in my home mail box to be picked up.


And where is the so called "service to to buyer"? Are you that economical thinking persons?
I often send parcels to all arround the world and for me it is clear, that I go to the postal office, wait in a line and will out 1-2 formulars!
Maybe I´m too honest and too gentle?



It isn't a question of service to the buyer or not.

The seller has decided because of their time/money trade-off NOT to sell to those overseas because of the time and trouble it creates.

If they lose bids, that's part of the equation.


Item sells to the US only for $50. Takes 5 minutes to pack and drop in mailbox.

Item sells to Brazil/Italy(some of my worst experiences have been the the Italian postal service) for $80, but takes 10 minutes to drive to post office and 30 minutes in line and 2 extra custom forms.

A seller has to decide if the extra $30 is worth the time spent. Perhaps, but perhaps not.


some of my worst experiences have been the the Italian postal service

Well, at least all went fine with our transactions... I cannot defend our postal service however.

Rather, I have some issue with a particular seller not leaving feedback, ehm... ;-)



True in all counts! That reminds me... :-)


> And where is the so called "service to to buyer"?

Many sellers on eBay are not professional sellers so you can not expect the same service.

> Are you that economical thinking persons?

I think that's not the reason. IT'S THE SELLERS FREEDOM where he wants to deliver the goods. Be somewhat more liberal instead of complaining about "economical thinking persons". US and Switzerland are different in size, there is not a post office around each corner.



In addition to the topics already discussed on why not to sell outside of the USA, I would like to add one more:

Without very expensive Express Mail or registered parcels which are about the same cost with yet more forms, the seller has absolutely no protection against loosing the item and their money. Paypal wil reverse the charges to the seller, charging their credit card if there is not sufficent monies in the account if the buyer claims non-delivery and the seller has no proof of same.

Bottom line is that it is a gamble to sell and ship by the lower cost methods that most buyers want when you accept Paypal. It is now very easy to have USPS Global Express fees in your eBay rate calculators. Include them and see just how many are willing to pay those prices.

Just my 2 cents worth.


What a bulls*, sorry. FOr international shipping you have to fill *ONE* more formular, that is all! In exchange to that you get many, many buyers more! So you will earn more money. ISn´t that the cause why you use ebay, to get that much money as you can?

Um, sorry Mathias, to reliably/insured ship stuff from US to Europe can involve extra standing in line, etc.

I only sell items on EBay to recover a bit of cash to fund some other 'toys'. It is not a business for me - just wanna recover a reasonable amount and move on. (If it were a business I'd be starving.) So maybe my top bid might be 5% higher, who cares?

It is not worth my time (effective hourly rate) to deal with any grief like this and there are plenty of buyers in USA.

Bill Wiese

San Jose


This might look weird, but I would *strongly* support the decision of our American friends to post to U.S. (even conUS, or 48 states) only!

Please look at this: if I were to sell a lot of recently found MIB HP95C's, or a lot of canes with a ghost installed, or a lot of well-known V.M. cheese sandwiches, I would also say "to U.S. only".

If I say "to Europe only", I am sure that it would be impossible for me to find a buyer!







filling in an international shipping form,

including the customs form, is simply two checkmarks,

two signings, and two words describing the contents.

As Matthias indicated, offering items worldwide

can increase your profit at no cost.

However, it is my experience that there are many US

eBay members who have no problem selling items worldwide,

or buying items from outside the US.

Don't get me wronng:

Of course you can restrict your selling range at will,

but to me it simply makes no sense to do so,

because restricting the range to a narrow window

lets you loose potential buyers,

and this is just like burning money...



Hi Bill,

To give a better sense of your experience, can you confirm that you have only had 5 total Euro e-bay transactions, and that *all* of them failed?

What percentage of your US transactions have failed?

I think this will get more to the point....

I have had 30 transactions total on E-bay. Three items I purchased from England with a perfect experience. All other buy/sell has been U.S., though I have always offered worldwide. I have had only one bona fide absolute scam against me. All others were ok or really good. The poorly disclosed items for which I complained, I was satisfied with an adjustment. So, e-bay has been a really remarkably good experience--all around.

Best regards,



Hi Bill

This has been quite some time now - 1998/99?
Maybe it was 4 Euro + 1 HK transaction.
One of them I actually pulled out of auction for a 'starving student' so he could get a DEC Alpha board at a nice price.

Broadly speaking the people involved didn't seem to understand winning a bid was a contract. I did get the perception that these folks may have been young/student.

I didn't file 'bad reports' on these folks on EBay - sometimes that gets into warring counterratacks. Just reposted the items and sold them fine.

Bill Wiese

San Jose


It is understandable that selling inside each one's country is easier and safer than selling abroad. However, it would be nice to give the chance to foreign people to buy; provided that all the extra costs (insurance, etc.) are set on the buyer side.

I have bought some few items via eBay USA, had no problems with payment, shipping, etc. I was prepared to pay in advance, freeing the seller from any shipping/customs/etc. claim (but not from a misleading description or condition statement, which had not happened)

In one case, I preferred the item to be sent to a friend who lives in San Diego, as I would pick it up in a planned business trip. Surprisingly, it was difficult to use PayPal to pay for an item to be shipped inside the USA if you were a non-USA resident customer. (It could have been a gift for my friend).

Now, what I would like to recall, is that the seller involved in this transaction refused to sell based in political (unproven) prejudices and, worse, stated them in a non-civilized manner. I think such attitude was the main concern. It should be clear that the place of birth or the place of residence is not what makes a person "good" or "bad", "friend" or "foe". To learn a little geography and history usually helps.


hi mattias es ist nicht der erste eingebildete ar....
aber das wundert mich nicht das die dort uber dem
atlantic sich fuer die die alles zahlen konnen oder
mochten mit einem fallenden dollar.....kein problem
die frechheit diesem cow boy er vergisst das
lafayette und englander zuerst oder colombus
dieses wiilde land endeckt haben das heisst

WIR aus EUROPE .......F.


Bin immer interessiert fuer 86b.
Gruss an Wlodek hab ihn rechzeitig zum flug gebracht
wie vereinbart. und noch geschwaetzt mit cafe.
gruss an del tonto kuiper klug jfgarn und und dir und
alle hp allsc.


You all trade and discuss about shipping worldwide.

But sorry all we all are i hope hp users and
So to buy or to sell fair.......and exchange informations
about old OLD computers or the last newsone....
why not?
For shure for some calculators the shipping is THE
price because the electronics is so called
obsolete or old but


THE best cooking IS in the OLDEST ...


To all HP-Fans and others,

it's everybody's own decision, where to buy or sell!

... But, if Germans would think so, they would be compared with the initiator of World War II, so most of us will never do so and millions before haven't done so!

It's also a big mistake to compare people with their government. THAT seller is probably not selling to foreign country presidents, like Schroeder, Blair, Putin, ... or even Mr. Bush, right?

I'm against wars without ANY exception. And mostly against wars, which are SOLD OVER WRONG OR INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE SHARING. And who really nows the real, true reason why this war was initiated? There are so many still open questions...

I strongly agree, that the whole free world, west and east of the Atlantic ocean, and all other oceans, too, should and must find ways to stop terrorism, but wars are not the solution. There are other ways. Remember those millions soldiers, civilists, children, mother's, father's, sister's and brother's who gaved their life within the last 100 years... for what?

Did their unneccessary death really changed something???

Today, we are at the same or higher risk as on 9/11. Thank you very much! Probably somebody at the Pentagon knows about the details of Abu Musab al Sarkawi's -new?- plans. Will this person share it's knowledge to everybody? Probably not! Mr. Bush needs a lot reasons to send his soldiers into a war.

Thank you very much Mr. Bush.

Again, terrorism must be stopped. And everybody without exception should help, mee too, but killing people is not a solution!

It may sound that I am against Mr. Bush. This is NOT TRUE. It is just the way he does. His words: 'Everybody, who will not fight with us, is against us...' are simply a lie.
It's his way to sell his very own financial interests to Americans.
Unfortunately - in 2003 - I meat people in California, who asked me if Germany is somewhere in the US.
That told me a lot (about true knowledge).

What would the seller think, if the rest of the world would be against the US? 6 000 000 000 people against 280 000 000? Should we all stop any contacts to our friends, colleagues or families? Probably not! Should we stop buying excellent american products? Not really. It probably would shutdown the US-industry and financial markets.

But this will never stop terrorism, nowhere.

Have a peacefull Christmas time and a happy new year, together with your families and hopefully many friends all over the world.


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