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solving problems with the HP-15C



#15

I'm trying to figure out if this thing has a solver function, without using programming.

What I'd like to do is simply enter an equation with one variable, such as:


45,000 = ((1.05)^n -1)/(.05*(1.05)^n) solve for n


I would normally do this stuff in excel, but I have a test and they won't let me use my laptop.

Thanks!


#16

IHT --

I take it tht you don't have an HP-15C manual, because this is all clearly documented in the book. PDF scans can be purchased from this website, or a used copy can generally be bought from internet-based sites and individuals for $25-$35.

The procedure for using "SOLVE" (f-shifted on the "divide" key) to solve a programmed function f(x) = 0 is as follows:

  1. Go into program mode ("g P/R") and write a program with the following attributes:
    • Begins with a LBL instruction specifying a unique label {A-E, 0-9, or .0-.9}
    • In the x-register, accepts a value of the variable to be solved
    • Computes the value of the function, such that 0 will be returned if the input value in the x-register was a solution
    • Ends with a RTN instruction
  2. Exit program mode ("g P/R")
  3. Enter a search range as lower and upper values in the x and y registers
  4. Hit "f SOLVE {program label of the function}"
  5. Wait up to a minute or two for the result

-- KS

Edited: 29 Sept 2004, 11:00 p.m.


#17

guessed, I do not have a manual. It might be in storage, but which box to look in?

In short, I am trying to figure out if this calculator will help me on a test, or if I need to go spend the money on a new-fangled calc. I like the RPN a lot.

But, we have to solve a lot of questions where there is one equation with one variable, but it is not nice and tidy on the left-hand side. My classmates half my age are all using modern financial calculators that do all the thinking for them but I'd like to do this stuff the old fashioned way.

I'd like to be able to solve stuff like:

45=12(1.04)^n

without trying to juggle n off on it's own. Sure, it would be easy in this case with logs, but many of the equations are more complex. As you probably figured out, the equation shown with my initial question has no solution. It wasn't a real problem, rather just one I made up.

Any additional help you care to give, such as specifically what keys to hit to solve the equation above would be greatly appreciated. I will go struggle with your first response and see if I can figure it out from there. (I'm kind'a old and my noggin isn't what it used to be)


#18

Hi, IHT;

may I try some answer?

The HP15C has a [SOLVE] 'application' already built in, so you need only to write your expression accordingly. In your example:

45=12(1.04)^n

can be written as a program like this: (consider n in the 'X-register', or in the display)

g P/R
f LBL 0
1
.
0
4
x<>y
y^x
1
2
×
4
5
-
g RTN
g P/R

Both [g][P/R] ensure you get in and out of program memory so you can load the program. After loading the program in memory, you can test it by keying in any value fo 'n' and pressing [GSB][0]. The calculator returns the resulting value. What SOLVE does is setting as many values for 'n' as necessary so your program returns zero. When it happens, the last 'n' value is your root. Try this:

0   [GSB][0]  returns -33.0000
1 [GSB][0] returns -32.5200
2 [GSB][0] returns -32.0208
10 [GSB][0] returns -27.2371
100 [GSB][0] returns 561.0594
The root must be between 10 and 100. Now do this:
[g][CLx][ENTER]
[f][SOLVE][0]

The display shows [running] for a while and then it stops with 33.7005.

If you want additional info, let us know.

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

#19

IHT --

Quote:
In short, I am trying to figure out if this calculator will help me on a test, or if I need to go spend the money on a new-fangled calc. I like the RPN a lot.

I've had my 15C since when I bought it new in late 1983 (which suggests my own age). It has seen me through three collegiate science and engineering degree programs. It's about the best calculator for these exams, when the student doesn't need a library of programs or equations entered beforehand. Very capable; quick, easy and intuitive to use. Newer isn't always better, and modern calculators can't match the no-nonsense utility of the 15C.

Quote:
But, we have to solve a lot of questions where there is one equation with one variable, but it is not nice and tidy on the left-hand side. My classmates half my age are all using modern financial calculators that do all the thinking for them but I'd like to do this stuff the old fashioned way.

If the test problems are in business/finance classes, a financial calculator would be better-suited to the task. The only RPN financial calc's presently retailed are the HP-12C and HP-12C Platinum, which share the 15C's "form factor". The original 12C is the better of the two, but both have crummy programming, and are rather slow computationally.

Quote:
45=12(1.04)^n

Here's how to solve for n, using SOLVE:

keystrokes    line(s)    comments

g RTN positions at start of program mem
g P/R enters program mode

f LBL A 001 program label (entry point) is A
1.04 002-005 1.04, one digit per line
x<>y 006 swaps 1.04 with value of n
y^x 007 takes (1.04)^n
12 008-009 12, one digit per line
* 010 calculates 12*(1.04)^n
45 011-012 45, one digit per line
- 013 calculates 12*(1.04)^n - 45
g RTN 014 end program of function

g P/R exits program mode to run mode
25 give 25 as low end of guess range
ENTER
75 give 75 as high end of guess range
f SOLVE A solve the function defined as "A"

The answer of 33.700454 will appear after less than 30 seconds. It can be verified by solving algebraically)

The programmed instructions will appear as numerical keycodes on the display, which indicate the row and column of the keys pressed. Instructions are not executed when they are entered.

Several requirements:

  • 2 registers are required to store the function, and 5 more to run SOLVE. Thus, the second number displayed by "g MEM" keystroke sequence must be 7 or more, to allow programming and solving of this problem.
  • There must be no other "f LBL A" instruction preceding the program in memory. Doing the "g RTN" as listed prior to programming will ensure this.


-- KS


#20

All that to solve 45=12(1.04)^n, and the answer takes "less then 30 seconds"? While you are messing about with that, your classmates have already soplved the equation and have moved on.

While the HP15c is a great tool for number crunching, I don't think that type of solving is one of its strengths. If you must have RPN, and you are permitted graphical calcs, maybe a 48gii / 49g+ would be the way to go.

'45=12(1.04)^n'

Num Slv -> 'Solve Equation' -> fill in ''45=12(1.04)^n'' and go SOLVE, to give the answer in a second or so. No need to fiddle about trying to write programs.

123 to delete

Just something to consider...


#21

Hi, dot;

I guess you did not read the thread as a whole. If so, you'd see that this is not mainly solving a problem, instead it is how to use the HP15C built-in solver. And for what it is, the example is enough as a starting point. And if you want it faster, try 30 [ENTER] 35 [f][SOLVE] A: less than 10 seconds.

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)


#22

sorry, I guess I just skimmed the thread too quickly!


#23

#24

... your statements still deserve comment, even though you subsequently admitted to not having read the full context of the thread:

Quote:
All that to solve 45=12(1.04)^n, and the answer takes "less then 30 seconds"? While you are messing about with that, your classmates have already solved the equation and have moved on.

Only if they solved it algebraically, as is easy to do on the 11C/15C. BTW, it's "than 30 seconds", as I wrote. Faster if the initial guess is close...

Quote:
While the HP15c is a great tool for number crunching, I don't think that type of solving is one of its strengths. If you must have RPN, and you are permitted graphical calcs, maybe a 48gii / 49g+ would be the way to go.

Sure, the 48G-series and 49-series models have the slick fill-in-the-blank equation solver. To get it on the HP 48G-series, hit right-shift SOLVE (but not left-shift SOLVE). On the HP-49G, first locate the "NUM.SLV" in red print on blue. I hope that the KinHPo 48GII and 49G+ are clearer and more intuitive, but I'm not paying good money to find out.

Quote:
Num Slv -> 'Solve Equation' -> fill in ''45=12(1.04)^n'' and go SOLVE, to give the answer in a second or so. No need to fiddle about trying to write programs.

This doesn't work on the HP 48/49 models as stated ("invalid syntax") because implicit multiplication is not supported. After making this mistake, more time is spent editing the equation to read '45=12*(1.04)^n'

BTW, the 15C program is not all difficult to enter; it can be done in less than 15 seconds. No hunting for "=" and "N" (don't forget to use ALPHA mode).

On solving functions defined as programs on any RPL-based 28/48/49: Can it even be done? If not, how would the user solve some "function" that included a loop or conditional test? I asked this question in this Forum a while ago, and got no satisfactory answer from anyone.

Quote:
Just something to consider...

Consider it considered. ;-)

Even without the text-field menus and high computational speed, single answers to problems like these can often be obtained more quickly start-to-finish with less mental effort on the 15C, because there's no hunting for functions or correcting syntactical errors.

-- KS


Edited: 1 Oct 2004, 3:04 a.m.

#25

Sure that your HP 15C can help with that.

It seems you'll have a financal manths test, right ? With such question as how long will it take for a capital of 12 to reach the value of 45 with an interest rate of 4%, right ?

Well, if you have a 12C, then you're the king.

Otherwise, you can go to simple maths to solve this :
45=12(1.04)^n
45/12 = 1.04^n

ln(45/12) = ln(1.04^n)
ln(45/12) = n ln(1.04) =
n = ln(45/12)/ln(1.04) -> n = 33.70

My point is that it's much easy to mistype numbers, and that you can get to a result that is far away from the expected result. Also double check your results and ask yourself the question "Is this result credible and realistic ?"

Using a solver without mastering your 15C can lead you to maybe fast answers, but with some risks regarding accuracy.

Therefore, and especially for "simple" maths (I'm not a mathematician at all, but just love the ln and exponent rules), I'd highly recommend to use your brain rather than your calculator for attending tests. Of course your calculator can help you to double check your results.

There is this site where it was said that if you are talking about investment with a banker or a broker who does not own a 12C or similar, just walk away.

This statement is so much true. When we purchased our house 4 years ago, I visited several banks and NOT ANY SIGLE ONE was able to explain me what their payment calculations meant. Some were using formulaes where the interest rate was compounded differently, sometimes with a 20% difference on the actual interest rate (such as you US people have between the yield and the APR : this is not legal in Belgium). I was so p*** off that I built my own site where I developed and demonstrated the well known financial formulaes and how to use them with a HP financial calculator. http://hpcalc.multimania.com You might find there some interesting addisitonal documentation to your courses.

I wish you good luck !

#26

The calculator is RPN, Financial, and has a solver that a 5 year old can use. That can't be said for the 15c solver.

I suggest the 17Bii over the graphics option unless you have other higher end mathematics to take afterwards. The Hp17Bii is well equiped to handle financial and statistics based courses. The Hp graphics would also work well, but other than the B&W and other business type plotsand graphs, offer no significant advantages over the Hp17Bii to a business major.

Now if you have any physics, mathematics or engineering courses in your way, I would offer other advice.


#27

Agreed. And even a 19BII is a great machine too.


#28

And I would suggest that also, except that it isn't nearly as easy to get. But it does have trig and units conversions. I would love to see Hp re-release a new Hp19Bii+ as implied by some other sites.


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