Very impressed with Casio's ClassPad



#20

I was very impressed with classpad300 math operating system, I only disagree (as always) the design. Does anyone knows an emulator of CP300 for pockePC? It seems calcs are dying slowly and painfully due to emulators(thanks Massimo for the 15C emu). ;)

Pio


#21

But I think you will always find a basic scientific made by someone. Will it be Hp? No, maybe not. Will it be a quality item like an Hp? Again, no, maybe not. Will RPN survive another 20 years in a calculator package? Hard to say.

But I will always use a calculator over a PDA device and I suspect the majority of the posters here feel likewise. If a PDA is ever released with a customizable keypad (scientific keypad overlay???) in a shirt pocket size, I may switch then, but not before.

So I always cringe when I hear someone spout off about how great the PDA type device is. My gut feeling is a business type MBA (with the power to make a production call) might feel a PDA device is worth production over a calculator line if he wants to maximise return on a single production line. Does he make a $20 calculator or a $200 PDA. Which will have more return per sale? Doesn't take a genius to decide which the production line will make.

This is a case where the short term returns will override the long term benefits. And Hp's Compaq PDA's are in direct marketing conflict with the higher end calculators (not so much in sales, but in company resources and R&D).

I became a loyal Hp user and fan with my first Hp15c. I stayed a loyal fan until the arrival of the Hp49G family of calculators. Their new line may win me back, but now I am a more cynical and skeptical customer than four years ago.

The point I want to make is that Hp made a great marketing and PR device with their quality calculators. Now they are entrusting this first impression to a knock off company. My first Hp49G+ had a bad keyboard (my second seems fine). I work with another engineer who finally bought his first Hp, an Hp30s. Do you think he finds it to be a great calculator? I certainly didn't say anything one way or another but when he visits our office and needs a calc, I loan him a 20s (and one made in the good ole USA at that). I suspect he bought the wrong calculator, not that he had much choice a year ago.


#22

You said:
"But I think you will always find a basic scientific made by someone."

I say:
True: Only because a basic calc can be made for $20-$50. PDAs have a long way to go before they get that low. But at $20-$50, you don't get much in the way of a quality calculator.

You say:
"But I will always use a calculator over a PDA device and I suspect the majority of the posters here feel likewise. "

That may be true for you and calculator connoisseur but most calculator users are just that, "users". They only care that it works.

Calculators are growing in size, not shrinking. PDAs on the other hand are shrinking, have more memory, larger screens, in color, and are completely programmable. Further, whatever program you have on your calculator (oops PDA) can also run on a PC, with the ability to transfer files between the two.

It's only a matter of time till everyone stops using standalone calculators. Just like they will for CD players and other consumer electronics.

To put it another way, consider the best calculator that you would like. Now consider that it could be expanded to include phone, PDA, etc. Would you abandon that perfect calculator, simply because it contained a phone? Hardly. We often think of calculators being added to PDA but I prefer to think of an electronic box that can contain just about any program. That is coming.

Some PDAs are now getting about the size of a 15C. Imaging that PDA running 15C software with more memory, program space, color, speed and the ability to transfer programs between 15C and PC. Perfect. Now imagine that with any other "perfect" calculator. It's not very hard to imagine calculators going away.

I have not carried a stand alone calculator for years. I have lots but prefer to use my PDA.

Anyone still use a record player.


#23

And the vinyl lasts forever. I can play a 78 that my grandmother's 1st cousin made in the 20's.


Audio tapes die in a decade. digital stuff lasts 2 years if you are lucky.


Man-machine interface.

Every accountant I know still has a real adding machine on the desk--not just their PC.

The PDA will never have the interface of a calculator unless you actually put real buttons on it.


So, I wonder---how did you adapt to using a PDA for a calculator? Is it really just as good (now that you have learned to use it) and as reliable for input a s a real calculator?

I would be very interested to hear how it really feels from an expereiced PDA guy.

The cost aspect is important, too. PDA's a re expensive; calcualtors are not. And, not efveryone needs or wants a PDA. So, that leaves a market for calculators.


The idea of the generalized box is good--but it is still a compromise---and therefore often not as good as a dedicated device.


#24

bill,

I, too, still own, and occasionally use, a turn table. I have a lot of stuff on vinyl that is too obscure to have been released on CD.

However, I have some CDs which are approaching 20 years old. They still play just fine.

From where do you draw the conclusion that digital stuff lasts only 2 years?

Take care.

Wayne.


#25

I still use the record player but most of my records are in pretty bad shape. I still use the analog audio cassette and all of my 15 years old tape are still in good shape. They may deteriorate somewhat but I can't tell. My CD are in good shape for many years but I can make perfect copy of the CD so digital basically last forever.


#26

I've heard a lot of noise recently about recordable CD's having a very limited lifespan, often starting to go bad after a couple of years. It's an issue for digital photographers who need archival storage for their images. But commercial CD's are produced in a different way, and as far as I know there's no problem with them.

It's a paradox with digital media, because once they go bad, they are useless. You can still play a scratched record, and view a torn photograph, but it doesn't take that much damage to make a CD unreadable. On the other hand, because digital information is entirely independent of its medium, there's nothing to prevent you from inscribing the numerical information for a photograph or a movie or a concert in carbon ink on vellum, or chiseling it in stone for that matter, along with instructions for decoding it, and an enterprising technician a thousand years from now could enter that information back into a computer and reproduce your work perfectly to the last pixel. Of course, that's just theoretical. Most likely huge amounts of information will be lost as the media or the machinery to read them are lost.

#27

Hi Bill,

>>Audio tapes die in a decade.

Not True at all. I have reel to reel tapes that date back to 1950 that still play fine. They are paper backed, so I have to be a little careful with them. The main problem with reel to reel tapes is that the lubricate can dry out over time and they start squeeling. Of course playing tapes on a bad machine (especially one with bad heads) will distroy the tape quality very quickly.

I still do a lot of recording on casstte tapes. I'm in process of having my Marantz PMD 430 portable stereo recorder completely overhauled by a firm in California and am looking forward to many hours of recording on cassette over the next few years. Got to get my grand daughters words on tape. They love talking into a mike, especially when I put wireless headphones on them so they can hear themselves as they record. I need to get one of those wireless mike/headsets like the rock stars use. I think the kids would love it.

Used to be a turntable person. A few years ago, moved my most favorite records over to CD and gave the turntable and my record collection to my nephew. He's wanting to go into radio production, so he was happy to get a nice setup.

12345

#28

Vinyl records absolutely do NOT last forever. At least not in the same condition they do when new. Everytime you play a record, you damage it somewhat. That's a fact. CDs on the other hand, will last much longer than records and can simply be reproduced, if need be.


#29

An EE i know once told me that he read a CD will last a half a million plays. He didn't know what the limiting factor is. Does anyone know what happens on that 500,001st spin?

This IS a pertinant topic for discussion here; i have the museum CD set and it has to last at least as long as my calculators.

#30

But I have to concede your points. That is the shame of the new wave of technology. It doesn't satisfy me, but it satisfies you and maybe the majority (and that is the market Hp and most others are interested).

Notice I did put a qualifier in my post. When the size of a PDA with a customizable keypad is down to the size of a pocket calculator, I will probably buy one.

My own work requires me to use a calculator fairly often (not real high end math), and I don't like the PDA's that I see around me. I could use my wife's 200LX probably, but I don't like the bulk of that either (of course I may have to fight for it. BoP .).

But I won't be pecking away on a touch screen (and don't ever plan to). I prefer the buttons!!!

And your post is another message that makes me cringe. Many, many people are happy with the features and functions a PDA can now offer. It is very versatile. I just don't like a calculating device without a keypad. But the majority of the population doesn't use a PDA for that function anyway (or so seldom as to not warrent any better). But for me, that would be its primary purpose and for that, the PDA, is its weakest feature. A real calculator still kicks PDA BUTT!

#31

Quote:
It's only a matter of time till everyone stops using standalone calculators. Just like they will for CD players and other consumer electronics.

Very bad comparison in my not so humble opinion.

Quote:
To put it another way, consider the best calculator that you would like. Now consider that it could be expanded to include phone, PDA, etc. Would you abandon that perfect calculator, simply because it contained a phone?

In a heart beat, because if it was a phone and a PDA it would NOT be the perfect calculator. It also would be a pretty horrible PDA and phone for that matter.

People have been trying to combing multiple devices in to one forever. Some times it works good, on the very rare occasion it works great, but more often than not it is a miserable failure. Some examples in history. The flying car, a miserable failure. The pocket plier tool, in some situations this is an extremely handy gadget, in fact I have several of them. But they will never replace a tool box full of tools, or a good pocket knife. If you need a screwdriver to take something apart, or put it together, and all you have is a pocket plier tool, then it will certainly get the job done. If you have both a pocket plier tool, and a regular screwdriver, almost anyone would reach for regular screwdriver over the pocket plier tool. Obviously there are people who will find the right pocket plier tool to be all the tools they need, but in general they will not replace the separate tools they combine into one.

I think it is the same with calculators and PDAs, they both server different purposes, and they serve those purposed pretty well. It's not too difficult to put them together and have them serve two different purposes. For many people this works fine and is a great combination, just like the pocket plier tool. But just like a pocket plier tool will never replace a mechanics tool box full of tools, a PDA will never replace all calculators.

Of topic a little here on the phone/PDA combination. That is a PDA manufactures pipe dream! I would be willing to bet a very large sum of money that in 10 years from now, if you were to take all the PDA users (and by PDA user, I mean some one that uses it for more than just a simple phone book), those that use their PDA as a phone will be less than 5% of the total. Now a phone that can wirelessly communicate with my cell phone, would be great!

Quote:
We often think of calculators being added to PDA but I prefer to think of an electronic box that can contain just about any program. That is coming.
[quote]

The software is only half the issue. Yes it is getting to where you can put a countless number of features in a very small package. However when you are dealing with a finite size device, the user interface is your limiting factor.

[quote]
I have not carried a stand alone calculator for years. I have lots but prefer to use my PDA.


I'm sure that works great for you, and many others. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Chris W

Bring Back the HP 15C

Edited: 18 June 2004, 1:59 p.m.


#32

You say:
"I'm sure that works great for you, and many others. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone"

I say:
Sure, not for everyone. But it will work for most. That is precisely why HP isn't making calculators anymore and why the ones that are beign made are junk. The number of purists is a drop in the retail bucket.

I would also say that if you dropped that perfect calculator, because it has something other than the calculator, but in no way affected the calculator or changed it, then you are just being silly (read: argumentative; or totally friggin illogical).


Edited: 18 June 2004, 10:53 p.m.


#33

Quote:
I would also say that if you dropped that perfect calculator, because it has something other than the calculator, but in no way affected the calculator or changed it, then you are just being silly (read: argumentative; or totally friggin illogical).

You completely missed my point. You can't have a perfect calculator as part of a phone/PDA. If you have a PDA/Phone/Calculator, one of four things will be true, with the fourth being the most likely. 1) you will have a good phone with a bad PDA and a bad Calculator. 2) you will have a good PDA with a cumbersome phone and bad calculator. 3) you will have a good calculator with a horrible PDA and a cumbersome phone. 4) you will have worthless electronic novelty. While the software side of it, isn't limited, there is only so much user interface you can put into a finite size box. A quality interface for a phone, calculator and PDA will not fit in a package small enough to fulfill its purpose.

Chris W


#34

 BUT
what if you have just a calculator (with real keys) on a PDA.
IT will be a superior calculator and an average PDA (no phone here)
http://www.hpcalc.org/qonos.php
[VPN]
#35

Some efforts to combine electronic functions into one device have been about as apetizing as trying to combine a food processor and a toilet. I hope my 41cx never dies. I use it every day. For certain purposes, it's much better than the stuff being made today.

Although the new digital media should last decades as far as actual durability is concerned, the problem is that standards are changing so fast that you'll have to transfer pictures, recordings, or whatever, to a new medium every few years or end up with something no one can play.

As for the durability of tape however, I have an open-reel stereo tape of Frank Sinatra that's about 50 years old, and the fidelity and background noise are phenominal! It sounds great even to those who are "spoiled" on CDs. You wouldn't think the technology to make a recording sound that good would have existed back then.

#36

Quote:
It's only a matter of time till everyone stops using standalone calculators. Just like they will for CD players and other consumer electronics.

If the time ever comes that all my standalone calculators quit working and I can't buy suitable replacements, I'll just use my slide rules and pencil & paper. I will not accept a PDA substitute.

Quote:
To put it another way, consider the best calculator that you would like. Now consider that it could be expanded to include phone, PDA, etc. Would you abandon that perfect calculator, simply
because it contained a phone? Hardly.

I wouldn't even consider a calculator/phone combination. I don't want a phone or a PDA. In fact, if a company did make a perfect calculator, and refused to sell it without bundling in a phone or PDA, I'd be extremely resentful, and the better the calculator, the more I'd resent being forced to give it up in order to avoid the other crap.

Quote:
We often think of calculators being added to PDA but I prefer to think of an electronic box that can contain just about any program. That is coming.

I don't mind having PDA *software* on a genuine calculator -- as long as it's downloadable software that can be removed, not something built-in -- but I most certainly do not want a PDA or "an electronic box that can contain just about any program." I want a separate computer (a laptop is absolutely the smallest size I find acceptable), a separate calculator, and a separate phone (preferably one that stays on my desk and doesn't follow me around!).

(Perhaps I get this attitude from my mother. She didn't like listening to the radio, and was the only person I ever knew who special-ordered a brand-new car from the factory so she could get one without a radio. It just had a blank piece of wood-grain plastic in the dash in the spot where a radio ordinarily would be.)


#37

"I don't mind having PDA *software* on a genuine calculator"



What about Qonos?

http://www.hpcalc.org/qonos.php

[VPN]


#38

Quote:
What about Qonos?

It seems that it will be better than anything HP currently is making, but it really hasn't grabbed my interest (so far). It still looks a bit too PDA-ish for my tastes, but I'm waiting to see what it's like when it actually becomes available before I make up my mind about it.


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