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Which HP



#16

Hey folks,
I recently tried a few different models of HP calcs. I find that I like the Voyager and Pioneer series calcs. I have 2 HP 27s (with one more on the way) and a 42s. I have been looking at the 11,15, and 16c models as well.
I am sure there are folks who would choose one style over the other. I am curious as to the advantages of both types, Pioneers vs. Voyagers.
If you have an opinion, viewpoint or story regarding the use of either type, I would love to hear it. I have pretty much settled on the 27s as my day to day machine, but the Voyagers seem...interesting. Any info on the Voyagers would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Joe


#17

I like the Voyager much better, mostly because of the smaller size and the landscape layout, I give more details on why I think this design is better on my website hp15c.org

Chris W
Bring Back the HP 15C

#18

Hi;

Let me just start by mentioning that all the text below is based on the newer, not hard to find LCD units.

I have some HP calcs as well, and based on your current calculators and on the fact you use one of the algebraic only as for daily use, you have no specific preference for algebraic or RPN, right?

Anyway, let's put things in this perspective: HP calculators are mostly RPN-based, and some recent models are either algebraic only (some financial models like the HP10B, HP14B, some scientific ones like the HP20S, the fin/sci units like the HP27S, and some non-HP inside, like the HP6S, HP30S) or offer them both (like the financial models HP17B/19B and HP12C Platinum, and some scientific ones, like the HP49 and the HP33S) giving the user the chance to use the calculator the way he wishes or finds better. I guess that having a choice, an option, is always better than having only one possibility.

About functionality: many financial models are resourceful, with extra clock and calendar like the HP17B/BII, HP18C and HP19B/BII and also the new 'plus' ones, while others offer some sort of "basic pack", like the HP14B, HP10B and HP10BII. But the one with the most comprehensible set of useful and handy financial tools is the HP12C. I'm mentioning the financial ones because you use an HP27S daily and it offers almost all resources available with the HP12C plus the scientific ones.

If you are fond to scientific calculators as well, the choices are bigger, if we consider that each family of HP calculators has more scientific models than financial ones. As a reference, let's take the Voyagers: five different models, only one is a financial model while others are scientific. The HP10C is an interesting calculator. It has all basic scientific functions plus programmability. It is a "simple set" taken from the HP11C, an Advanced Scientific Calculator. I'd guess that the HP11C is one of the golden choices for scientists, along with many other models like the HP65/67/97, HP55, HP34C, HP41, HP42S and others. I take these models, as "flat" units (no extra devices, only the calculator as is) as the most impressive models ever made. But we must add the extremely powerful HP15C. This is a hell-of-a calculator. Matrix operations with the ability to handle data from complex matrices, full-operational complex algebra, numerical root finder (SOLVE) and integration. Programming skills are easy to achieve and all possible functions are available in the keyboard, meaning you don't need menu-driven procedures.

The HP16C is a class for itself. The only Computer Scientist exclusive calculator designed by HP. It's hard to describe any features in the HP16C without mentioning the others: operation in any of the four numeric bases with TRUE 64 bit maximum word size in any of them, extensive bit manipulation with rotating and shifting (carry bit included or not), Boolean algebra and arithmetic, unsigned or 1's or 2's complement mode representation, double-precision addition, multiplication and reminder (up to 128 bits), programmable... and can be used as a floating-point, regular RPN calculator anytime you need to. Amazing!

The HP42S is a heavy post-implementation of the giant HP41 with the lack of I/O ports ("If I only had a port..."). I guess that the only one that beats the HP15C when complex matrix operations are the issue is the HP42S. I know that the HP15C is THE calculator for many contributors in here, but I cannot dare denying some facts related to the HP42S: it handles matrices with complex numbers while the HP15C handles real representations equivalent to complex matrices (the HP15C software design is far beyond clever, indeed, I am completely convinced about that, but the HP42S goes further...); it handles complex numbers without the need to activate a complex mode, meaning complex numbers and real-only numbers share stack registers at the same time (I am aware of the fact that the HP42S is actually a big RPN emulator running in an RPL-oriented processor, and that the former concepts applied to fixed four registers stack, RPN calculators do not apply to the HP42S, with a "virtual" stack that mainly handles pointers to objects). The HP42S programming follows the same RPN paradigm found in earlier RPN models, meaning if you know how to write a program for any RPN model, you'll easily write programs to the others.

I guess I'd write some more, but from now on I'd need reading some manuals or take some calculators in hands to check for available resources or particular operation, but I guess others will add many new information as well. I hope I did not loose focus.

Best regards and good "hunting" for other models.

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 3 June 2004, 12:35 a.m.


#19

"...HP42S: it handles matrices with complex numbers 
while the HP15C handles real representations equivalent to complex matrices
(the HP15C software design is far beyond clever, indeed,
I am completely convinced about that,
but the HP42S goes further...);
it handles complex numbers without the need to activate a complex mode,
meaning complex numbers and real-only numbers share stack registers at the same time
(I am aware of the fact that the HP42S is actually a big RPN emulator
running in an RPL-oriented processor,
and that the former concepts applied to fixed four registers stack,
RPN calculators do not apply to the HP42S,
with a "virtual" stack that mainly handles pointers to objects)..."
-----------------------------------------------
Then maybe a new HP-43S is what we really need
because it is the only model in which you can easily implement a variable size stack.
AND if it really is the only one better than the 15C
(execept for size)
I sure would like have seven levels most of the time
T
U
V
W
Z
Y
X
{VPN} - opinions only

#20

Veli-Pekka Nousiainen opined,

Quote:
Then maybe a new HP-43S is what we really need

If we want to design something new, this is what I would do.
Take the form factor of the 15C, add a second line to the display which will easily fit. Put the functions of the 42S with soft menus and a dot matrix display. Then add the unit conversion and unit calculation ability of the 48SX. Give it a long battery life, a little more speed than the 42s, lots more memory, add the functions of the 16C (mostly via soft menus. A variable size stack would be a nice addition too. Maybe a mini USB connection or a SD slot so data and programs could easily be backed up on a PC. Now that is about the perfect calculator. Anything that I couldn't do with it I would be doing on my desktop computer.

#21

Joe --

You've been visting for quite a while, now... god to see that you are still interested and involved in the hobby.

The Pioneers, introduced in 1988, were the successors to the Voyagers, which were introduced in 1981-82. The Pioneers are a little longer, and feature the Saturn processor that is about 12x as fast as the one in the Voyagers. Also, there are 11 models of Pioneers: 10B, 14B, 17B, 17BII, 20S, 21S, 22S, 27S, 32S, 32SII, and 42S. ("B" = business; "S" = scientific)

There are only five Voyager models: 10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, and 16C. ("C" = continuous memory). All are scientific models except the business 12C.

If you are collecting, the "must-haves" are the 15C and 16C. These are, respectively, the most-advanced and the most-distinctive models.

The 10C, an acceptable workaday calc, is only a stripped-down 11C that didn't sell very well during its brief production run from 1982-84. Although it features that fine Voyager quality of construction, its limited function set and crude programming capabilities render it a substandard product. It is expensive on eBay due to its rarity.

The 11C is a fine scientific calc, implementing the functionality of the 34C (but omitting Solve and Integrate) in the excellent Voyager package.

The 12C is the commonplace and classy-looking business calc that is still manufactured today, with lower quality. It is useful with general business and calendar functions, but rather slow. It shares the crude programming capability of the 10C.

The 15C is a masterpiece of engineering -- alongside the 42S as perhaps the finest non-expandable scientific calculators ever made. It is the 11C, expertly developed to its ultimate potential. It added the Solve and Integrate functions from the 34C, as well as complete complex-number support and matrix functions, both built-in and easy to use. More user RAM, 4 more conditional tests, and direct exchange with any numbered register were also added. Even with all this additional development, the calc is bug-free, and the manual is near-flawless. There is also a supplementary Advanced Functions Handbook that is worth getting.

The 16C is unique -- a computer-science calc developed for programmers of low-level hardware. There is nothing else like it. It has a full set of bit-manipulation and logic functions, variable word sizes from 1 to 64 bits, and can represent integers in base-2, base-8, base-10, and base-16 as unsigned, 1's-complement, or 2's-complement. (Many of the Pioneers and other manufacturers' calcs offer integer representation in base {2, 8, 16}, but only in 2's-complement and a fixed word size.)

Expect to pay more than $150 on eBay for a good-looking specimen with manual for any of these models, except the 12C ($50 or so).

I have the 12C (from local seller, $50); the 15C (bought new in 1983 for $109), and the 16C (eBay, $186). I refuse to pay eBay prices for the 10C and 11C, but I'd buy them for much less.

-- Karl


#22

*ERROR* <SYSTEM FAILURE> Matrix halted and...zzzrr

HP-11C vs. HP-34C <- no, No, NO !!!

HP-15C vs. HP-34C <- yes, Yes, YES !!!

{VPN}


#23

Veli-Pekka posted,

Quote:
*ERROR* <SYSTEM FAILURE> Matrix halted and...zzzrr
HP-11C vs. HP-34C <- no, No, NO !!!
HP-15C vs. HP-34C <- yes, Yes, YES !!!
{VPN}

What the heck is that nonsense supposed to mean, Veli-Pekka?

No, I made no *ERROR* or <SYSTEM FAILURE>. I simply implied that the functionality set of the 34C (introduced in 1979) was the starting point for that of the 11C (introduced in early 1982), and the "Compare Features" function of the MoHPC website certainly bears that out.

I find it not coincidental that the following features are exactly or nearly the same on the 34C and 11C, but are different on the 15C (introduced in late 1982):

  • Automatic register-to-programming memory conversion
  • Same 8 conditional tests
  • "x<>(i)" provided, but no direct exchange-x-with-numbered-register function
  • 210/203 bytes of RAM

The 11C had a few things that the 34C did not (e.g, hyperbolics, permutation and combination, random #), but still did not quite stack up to the 34C in every aspect.

An HP Journal article (available on the MoHPC CD/DVD set) makes clear that the 15C was developed from the 11C, with the following specific objectives:

  • Implementing the 34C's Solve and Integrate functions
  • Implementing matrix- and complex-number functionality

[KS]


#24

Hi, Karl;

just to add that I also consider the HP34C closer to the HP11C instead of being closer to the HP15C. About the extra hyperbolic with inverses, combinational analysis related functions (nCr, nPr) and built-in pseudo Random-number generator (I guess this is the cause of the missing 7 bytes/1 register in the HP11C) you mentioned, I'd also add the extra three direct-access labels (A to E in the HP11C against the single pair A and B in the HP34C) and the USER mode. The only reductions suffered in the HP11C related to the HP34C I can think of are related to flags (two in the HP11C against four in the HP34C) and the display control [h][DSPI] function. SOLVE and integration are not counted here, of course.

If we consider available resources, I'd classify the HP34C "in between" both 11C and 15C. Closer to the HP11C, I'd dare saying, but still "in between".

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)


#25

"SOLVE and integration are not counted here, of course."

which tells it all...
<< VPN >>

#26

Luiz and Veli-Pekka --

I apologize for the "snarkiness" that my posts exhibit from time to time, but quasi-coherent challenges or criticisms do irritate me.

My statement was not whether the 34C was more like the 11C or the 15C; it was that the 11C was developed from the 34C.

The functional similarities I pointed out strongly suggest that a fair amount of ROM code (or at least, the underlying algorithms) from the 34C was "borrowed" for development of the 11C. It would not surprise me, either, if HP deliberately omitted Solve and Integrate from the 11C, so as to "leave something" for the 34C until the 15C could be released.

Remember: in 1982, HP re-engineered the 34C to fix its primary design flaw of unsoldered circuits. Giving Solve and Integrate to the 11C might have sabotaged HP's 34C efforts, and cut into subsequent sales of the 15C.

When I bought my 15C in November 1983, the improved 34C was still offered for sale. In fact, the 34C is what I had intended to buy, until the salesman showed me something better...


#27

#28

Hello Joe. I can't improve on the excellent dissertations offered by Luiz and Karl. Chris is biased <VBG> so take what he says with some salt (however almost everyone agrees with him so you won't need too much salt ;-)

The 16C, as Luiz and Karl have described is both unique and highly specialised. This makes it expensive and probably less than useful unless you actually need it--and then you can hardly work without it!

I encourage you to purchase Dave's (the MoHPC curator) CD or DVD set. The discs contain the manuals for the calulators you're considering and a wealth of supplementary material. You'll need the manuals, for any of the calculators, before you can seriously evaluate them.

If you want to try a 16C before you buy, I have a modest simulator that you can download and run on your windows desktop or PPC. You'll need the 16C Owner's Handbook to make any sense of it though.

Cameron


#29

Joe opined

Quote:
Chris is biased <VBG>

Bring Back the HP 15C

Me, Biased? What makes you say that? I can't imagine why anyone would think that! ;) ;)

Bring Back the HP 15C

#30

I can't decide what I like best--which is why my collection keeps growing!

Seriously though: the Pioneers are much faster than the Voyagers. This is sometimes important, but often not--depends on what you are up to!

I absolutely LOVE the user mode in the Voyagers--giving one-button custom functions---in the Pioneers, you have to do Xeq __ (2 buttons) except for the one program that is at the top of the list, which will work with R/S.

The program/memory management of the 32s is great--I like it very much more than the voyagers, which are keycode machines.

But you like the 27s---a model I would love to see. I have a feeling I would like it, too. I like the solver in the 17bii very much, and I wonder if the 27s feels similar?

Since you have so many 27S machines, would you mind swapping with me for a while?

take your pick:

32s 50th anniversary
11c
48gx with expansion and MetaKernel and Erable ALG48
20s
17bii
12c
10b
(I'd loan you a 15c but its already loaned out)
(I'd loan you my new 33s but I dropped it on the road and watched it get picked up!)


Best regards,

Bill

http://plattdesign.net


Edited: 3 June 2004, 10:45 a.m.


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