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HP-41 and HP-11



#26

May I suggest Hewlett-Packard make these two models again?
I've never used any better pocket calculators than these two ones. I have now a 48G and, beleive me, I'd rather use a 11C or a 41C/CV/CX.

A word to the HP management: Just look how many classified adds you find offering or requesting such models, and look how high-priced they remain. Actually, the 11C is more expensive today (used!!) than 15 years ago when it was still on the market.


#27

I heartily agree.

I'd add the 42S (updated 41 in new pkg) and HP15C to that list - as well as the 16C (if you deal with lowlevel firmware, etc. a good hex calculator helps; HEX/BIN etc features on other calcs (32SII, etc.) aren't as friendly due to keyboard/menu issues.)

I still find myself "thinking" with numbers using a 41C or CV.

I had a 48S for about 2 wks and gave it to a friend. I don't want my calc to be a "computer" which is what the 48 tries to do; if I need to solve a problem at that level, it's easier to do it via Excel, Matlab, a C program, etc.

Bill Wiese

San Jose CA

#28

Hello Bernardo,

With these few and quite simple words maybe you told what I and all HP calculators fans wordwide fells deep in their souls. The question is: would they do that in these days, in a "Money&Business Commanded Word"?

I personally would like to believe...but I am a dreamer...

Cheers

Luis


#29

While I agree with most of what was said, I doubt the world still needs a 16C. Honestly: I have one myself, bought in 86 or so, when assembly was still an issue, but have no use for it today, other than contemplating it from time to time (No, I'm not selling it).


#30

I write low-level embedded firmware. We work with hardware designed handed over and that will be changed/tweaked, etc.
Programming these chips, esp when you're dealing with weird non-multiple of 256 buffer lengths (for example, an audio CD "Frame" is 2352 bytes long) is nice with a bit of help from a good calc for checking things..

Having a hex/bin/dec calculator at hand is a real boon. Not something you REQUIRE, but something nice to have for quick checks. And it's too hard to use the Windows sci. calc (I *hate* mousing on a calc).

So I've found that the HP16C and the Casio CM150 "Computer Math Calc" (I lost mine!) were most helpful. Important functions were not shifted or in menus so jumping around btwn hex/dec was friendly & quick.

No, I do not need the 16C's elaborate feature set - just an RPN calc that has an easy-to-use KB and hex/dec/bin modes

Bill

San Jose

#31

The 41C and the 11C were my first own HP calcs back then, so I have a special relation to these models.

And it was the fault of a 33E that I even considered buying an RPN calc...

I used them both very much, especially the HP-41, mainly for ML programming, but since 1990 the HP-48 is my favourite programming toy. Once you get used to the extremely powerful RPL system, it's much fun, and you can use programming techniques you never even dreamt of with the HP-41.

For simple daily arithmetic, I usually take an 41CV which sits on my desk, because it has the best keyboard feedback ever made.

I'd use an 11C or 15C if they didn't have that awful quirk:
A remarable amount of HP-1xC units have a painful drawback, namely the ENTER key needing too much force to press in comparison to the other keys on the same keyboard.
I own enough units to say that abount 60 - 70 percent of the voyagers have that hard force ENTER key.
Also I like the vertical layout of the HP-41 and the Pioneers much more than the landscape layout of the 1xC series.

Raymond

#32

Some of the preceding posts have advocated re-issuing Voyager series models. Since the venerable 12C has already been "updated" (but not very well), maybe KinHPo could try to get it right with other classic Voyager models. However, I believe that only the 15C is worth another try:

10C -- A stripped-down, compromised product that never should have been made. Why did HP expend extra time/money/effort building a product with its own ROM, manual, and faceplate that was inferior to existing models and sold for less? Where's the profit in that? If they wanted a low-price Voyager, they should have brought the 11C down in price some more to fill that niche. The 15C, originally at $135 MSRP, was easily worth at least $40 more than the 11C.

11C -- A nice product%2


#33

Quote:
10C -- A stripped-down, compromised product that never should have been made. Why did HP expend extra time/money/effort building a product with its own ROM, manual, and faceplate that was inferior to existing models and sold for less? Where's the profit in that?

It's called product positioning. The manufacturing costs of the HP-10C and HP-11C were nearly identical. If they'd have lowered the price of the HP-11C by $55 instead of making an HP-10C, they would have sold more units, but not enough more to make up for the lower price, so the would have made less money overall. By releasing the HP-10C instead, they gained those low-end sales without reducing the HP-11C sales much.

At least that is the theory. Not being privy to the actual sales figures, I don't know how well it worked in this specific instance. But this is a fairly common practice in just about any kind of product. When you buy an $80 VCR, you don't get quite all of the features of the same manufacturer's $100 VCR, but that has nothing to do with manufacturing cost.

It's also somewhat of a "bait-and-switch" model. By that I don't mean that HP or their dealers were engaging in actual bait-and-switch tactics, which are generally illegal. However, if you have potential customers that don't want to spend much money, it's easier to get your foot in the door by offering a bargain-basement model and then up-selling. The existence of the HP-10C may have actually increased HP-11C sales.


#34

Thanks, Eric, for a reasonable and thoughtful reply. I'm sure that what you describe -- "product positioning" -- is indeed what HP was thinking at the time.

You stated:

Quote:

At least that is the theory. Not being privy to the actual sales figures, I don't know how well it worked in this specific instance.

Based on information from the Museum:

Model       Intro       Discontinued  MSRP at intro
11C early 1982 1989 $135
15C late 1982 1989 $135
10C late 1982 1984 $80

So, the 15C and 10C were both derived from the 11C, with the 15C being a substantial improvement and the 10C being a stripped-down model. One would think that the price of the 11C was immediately cut (to maybe $105-110?), once the 15C became available. However, the 10C wasn't exactly "bargain-basement".

If HP feared that a triple-digit price would have caused "sticker shock", they could have priced the 11C at $95 to fill the niche. Good marketing and sales literature would have made consumers aware of the quality and value of both models, and simplified the product line. Declining prices and economical retail sources made both "upper" models very affordable, anyway. (I bought my 15C for $109 in late 1983).

It seems that consumers saw the light in spite of this misguided effort. The 11C and 15C remained in production until 1989, while the 10C was terminated in 1984, apprently due to poor sales. Their rarity is why they're so expensive on eBay today.



#35

Quote:
If HP feared that a triple-digit price would have caused "sticker shock", they could have priced the 11C at $95 to fill the niche.

Sure, but that would reduce the profit by $40 on every 11C sale, while introducing the 10C only reduced the profit by $40 on a small portion of the sales. (HP wouldn't have lost the entire $40; the dealers would likely have had the same percentage margin so they would have made less money also.)

Engineering and tooling for the stripped-down model probably cost less than $250,000. Cutting the 11C price would likely have been more costly. I'd be surprised if they weren't selling at least 25,000 HP-11C units per year at that time. Assuming that they sold 20% more units at $95 than at $135, the $40 price cut would have reduced annual gross sales of the 11C by more than half a million dollars (15%).

Even if the 10C sold poorly (which it apparently did), it still probably made HP a lot more money than an 11C price reduction would have.

Of course, we don't know the real numbers. But it's hard to believe that HP wouldn't have had some pretty darn good bean counters working for them, so I'm inclined to think that introducing the 10C was a smart business decision.


#36

Apparently HP sold about 300,000 HP-35 calculators in three years. This suggests that the annual sales figures for the HP-11C were likely between 250,000 and 1,000,000 units. In that case, assuming the other assumptions in my model were reasonable, the gross sales hit for cutting the price from $135 to $95 as Karl suggested would have been between five and twenty million dollars.


#37

Eric --

Wait a minute, now!

There were several major assumptions in your financial analysis, that I did NOT assume:

  1. The MSRP of the 11C remained $135 even after the 15C became available. I assumed a price drop to $105-110, as stated in my earlier post. What informed consumer would pay the same price for an 11C with the 15C available at the same price?
  2. The prevailing retail price of the 11C was the MSRP. Based on my own experience, I think MSRP was on the high end; college bookstores and mail-order firms would have offered lower prices.
  3. Remember also that MSRP includes dealer profit, so HP would not take the full "hit" of any financial cost from a lower retail price.

So, it seems doubtful that proceeding "as Karl suggested" (well, not exactly) would have cost HP betwwen $5M-$20M.

My underlying point about this was that for a company to expend time and effort and money to produce a substandard, stripped product from an existing better one is not a sound approach, even if it seems to make sense in a marketing analysis.

Developing the 15C from the 11C was a commendable undertaking; developing the 10C from the 11C was not (or perhaps, they were developed concurrently). It would be different if the 10C were clearly the original.

So, if it cost only $250k to develop the 10C package (seems low to me, even in 1982 dollars), wasn't there anything more worthwhile that the people developing the 10C could have been doing?

Of course, we're both just speculating; we don't know the particulars.


#38

Quote:
The MSRP of the 11C remained $135 even after the 15C became available. I assumed a price drop to $105-110, as stated in my earlier post. What informed consumer would pay the same price for an 11C with the 15C available at the same price?

Yes, but my recollection was that the HP-10C price was also dropped at the same time. I wasn't paying too close attention to the HP-10C, but I did buy the HP-15C on the day it was introduced, and the information I saw made mention of price drops on several models.

Quote:
The prevailing retail price of the 11C was the MSRP. Based on my own experience, I think MSRP was on the high end; college bookstores and mail-order firms would have offered lower prices.

Certainly. But if the retailer sold it below MSRP, that only reduced the retailer's revenue, not HPs. Without knowing what the margins were, I don't know what HP's fraction of the hypothetical gross sales reduction would have been, but probably at least 50% of it.

Quote:
Remember also that MSRP includes dealer profit, so HP would not take the full "hit" of any financial cost from a lower retail price.

Which is why my numbers were stated as a reduction in gross sales, not HP revenue or profit

Quote:
My underlying point about this was that for a company to expend time and effort and money to produce a substandard, stripped product from an existing better one is not a sound approach, even if it seems to make sense in a marketing analysis.

You haven't produced any analysis to support that claim. I've produced at least some flimsy support for the idea that it was in fact a sound decision.

Quote:
Developing the 15C from the 11C was a commendable undertaking; developing the 10C from the 11C was not (or perhaps, they were developed concurrently). It would be different if the 10C were clearly the original.

Commendable from whose perspective? From the company's perspective, it is commendable if it results in more profit than the alternative. I suspect it did.

Quote:
So, if it cost only $250k to develop the 10C package (seems low to me, even in 1982 dollars),

I was estimating $200k for engineering the firmware and $50k for tooling for the plastic keys and model number insignia. I suppose the marcomm costs for the manual, box, and other marketing costs is probably another $200k, so I still expect the total cost to be under $500k.

Quote:
wasn't there anything more worthwhile that the people developing the 10C could have been doing?

I'll agree that there might have been some effect there, but not much since it takes a whole lot less effort to strip down an existing product than to improve one, both for engineering and marcomm.

You could say the same thing about my VCR example. By your reasoning, instead of a given vendor developing both a $100 VCR and a slightly feature-reduced $80 VCR with essentially the same COGS, they should just cut the price on the $100 VCR and put their resources into improving their high-end $150 VCR. But given that all the VCR companies (and in fact all the consumer electronics companies in general) do in fact make stripped "bait-and-switch" models for the low-end market, I think the only reasonable conclusion is that this approach yields higher profit. After all, if it were a dumb move, at least one of the competitors would figure that out, take your approach, and wind up dominating the market or at least forcing the other players to follow suit.

Instead of arguing that this sort of product positioning isn't a good idea for the manufacturer, you could argue that it doesn't provide good value for the consumer, but I don't think I'd even agree with that.


#39

Eric --

You are a formidable debater and quite-knowledgable individual, as indicated by your responses and your postings on ROM extractions and engineering history of HP calcs. Please keep up the valuable work!

I'd just like to emphasize that my statements in this thread aren't fundamentally about the HP-10C or business cases; they're about good engineering and the release of “compromised” products in order to fulfill a business strategy or to improve the short-term bottom line.

I'll opine the following: Marketing that supports engineering -- by informing buyers about new high-quality products -- is almost always beneficial. Engineering that supports marketing, however, is a double-edged sword that may or may not be profitable over the long term.

You mentioned the example of an $80 VCR vs. a $100 VCR sharing many components. There's absolutely nothing wrong with offering a less-capable model to customers unwilling or unable to pay the higher price. My only caveat would be that the cheaper model should not be compromised -- it should perform all of its lesser functionality well, and not feel "crippled" to the user. This, I think, is the true essence of good, ethical product placement -- as opposed to quasi-bait-and-switch ("Yeah, we've got those low-end models, but they're a piece of junk --here's what you really want.")

To illustrate this point: A 4-door car with vinyl upholstery might be an economical alternative to the luxury model with leather. However, a 4-door car without a back seat as standard equipment would be compromised.

Back to the 10C: I should temper my earlier statements, because the 10C wasn't as bad as I suggested. The only thing really wrong with it is the lousy programming (shared by the 12C) that doesn't allow insertion or deletion of instructions. That complicates even simple programming tasks, and renders the two conditional tests a real chore to use. Adding "LBL" and "GSB" would require eliminating the conditional tests; nothing else on it is truly expendable. Still, I question whether it was worth $80 – considerable in the early ‘80s – as essentially a non-programmable, when the better Voyagers could be had for $135 or less. Discerning buyers of HP calculators apparently also questioned its value, as evidenced by its short life span.

Did the 10C improve HP's bottom line by securing some sales in the low-end segment, and by providing a "hook" for sales of the uncompromised 11C and 15C? Maybe so. But how many purchases of the latter two models were lost because the lower-cost 10C proved enticing to strapped-for-cash students? How many buyers of the 10C did not buy a 42S or 32S a few years later? How many 10C owners weren't fully satisfied with what they got for their $80 ("How do I program this $%&# thing?"), and never bought another HP? All of these factors -- difficult to quantify, for sure – reduced profitability in the long term.

Perhaps the introduction of the 10C wasn’t a bad idea. I suspect that the plan all along was to offer three models of general-purpose scientific calculator – basic, intermediate, and advanced. The 11C met most people’s needs, and utilized most of the techniques and procedures of the 34C. The 15C – major advancement that it was – required more time for development. Subsequent release of the 10C probably just completed the original plan. As prices on the 11C and 15C dropped, and personal incomes rose due to inflation (and recovery from the 1982 recession), the 10C became superfluous. Its termination in 1984 became an even better idea.

However, it could be argued that the money spent on its development could have been better spent on heavier marketing of the 11C and 15C, with no extra reductions in price. When you have something good, let the public know that it is well worth what is asked.

As for the superb 15C, I’ll state that its development was absolutely commendable purely from an engineering standpoint even if it weren’t a commercial success – which I believe it was. HP turned a very good product into a great one, without losing any ease-of-use of the original, or altering its sensible form factor. Some other commendable products got buried by “market forces” – e.g., the Commodore Amiga – but thankfully, not this one. I believe that your own ROM-extraction results (14 kB for the 15C versus 6 kB for the 11C) shows the amount of work done to bring the 15C to the marketplace.

Regards,

-- Karl


#40

One very minor technical correction:

Quote:
ROM-extraction results (14 kB for the 15C versus 6 kB for the 11C)

Those are actually the count of 10-bit words, not bytes. The count of equivalent 8-bit bytes is thus 25% higher: 17.5 KB vs. 7.5 KB.

#41

I don't have any knowledge of management, but I believe a good product will always find its place on the market.

Getting back to the scientific facts, the 11C and the 41C/CV/CX were really good products, and that is because they performed the tasks one (still) expects from a scientific pocket calculator. The 48G/GX, as such, are TOO big, therefore impractical, and as computers they're TOO small, therefore unefficient.


PS: I never had any problems with the ENTER key of the 11C.

#42

I think the low end is covered by HP's actual calculator line and the planned 33S. The only gap to fill is between this low end and the graphing calcs, which is where a reissued 15C or 42S would fit.

However, the appeal of the 15C is not its functionality, which is surpassed by many later models, including the 42S, but its high quality and small size.

Reissuing a small *and* powerful calculator might still be interesting for HP, but I doubt that it could be based on the 15C. There's simply no market for a calculator that can only display program instructions as key coordinates. It would have to be a 42SII (or 42S+, or 43S, the current naming scheme is a bit ambivalent).

Just another 2 centimes, Victor


#43

I agree with Victor that reissuing the 42S would make more sense than doing a new 15C. One problem with the 15C that I haven't seen mentioned is its speed: it doesn't have any!!! Perhaps 15C fans simply don't write or run nontrivial programs?

My favorite test program involves a loop that runs 264 times. My average runtime for the 15C (from two specimens) was 1368 seconds! An HP42S did it in 105 seconds and an HP32SII in only 39 seconds. The 15C was slower than even the lowly 11C.

BTW, at the other end of the scale, an HP49G+ runs the same benchmark in 4.1 seconds. That is the fastest time I've recorded with HP hardware. (My only faster time, 3.1 seconds, was achieved with Math-U Pro on a Palm m505---with a 33 MHz "Dragonball" CPU.)

Dare I predict that if we see a reissue of the 42S it will be in the same strange form-factor as the upcoming 33s?

--Mark

#44

Some of the preceding posts have advocated re-issuing Voyager series models. Since the venerable 12C has already been "updated" (but not very well), maybe KinHPo could try to get it right with other classic Voyager models. However, I believe that only the 15C is worth another try:

10C -- A stripped-down, compromised product that never should have been made. Why did HP expend extra time/money/effort building a product with its own ROM, manual, and faceplate that was inferior to existing models and sold for less? Where's the profit in that? If they wanted a low-price Voyager, they should have brought the 11C down in price some more to fill that niche. The 15C, originally at $135 MSRP, was easily worth at least $40 more than the 11C.

11C -- A nice product, but fully eclipsed by the 15C. Not worth reviving.

12C -- What the Platinum "upgrade" should have offered is much faster computational speed, 11C/15C programming features(not jsut more steps), and trigonometrics. Algebraic mode requires "()", preferably shifted on STO and RCL.

15C -- Almost perfect as-is, with only the following improvements:

  • Faster (Pioneer speed at a minimum)
  • Keycodes for leftmost five keys of top row showing "A"-"E" when labels/matrix identifiers are used, instead of 11-15 [Note: the 16C and 20S had this feature]
  • Swap "MEM" and "ABS" on keyboard for better functional grouping. (ABS is more useful on the 15C than on the 11C, due to complex-number magnitude)

16C -- An impressive niche product, but not much of a market for it, especially now.


So, it wouldn't seem too difficult to improve and re-issue the 15C for a modes cost, would it? If KinHPo completely re-wrote the ROM, they probably wouldn't test it adequately, but if modern hardware and a translator were used, maybe it could be done.

Opinions? Insights regarding the hardware are especially welcome.


#45

The 15C emulator by Lygea (www.lygea.com) shows an excellent job of porting the HP15C feature set to a current platform (PocketPC). If it only had real keys...

BTW, MathUPro (www.creativecreek.com) is something comparable for the Palm, but is not as close to the real 15C.

#46

If they were to re-issue the 15C, I would want to see it have a few of the additional features of the 32SII as well.

For me these capabilities would include:

* hex/oct/bin arithmetic as on the 32

* extended range exponent (3 digit)

* fraction capability

* the same type of 12 digit accuracy as on the 32SII or alternatively, the accuracy of the 30S and similar models

* alphanumeric codes for the programming steps

* constants and conversions as on the 30S/9G or the proposed 33S

However, if you're going to re-issue the 15C, why not go the whole 9 yards and re-issue the 42S. I don't have a 42S, but from everything that I have heard and read, this is the best small 1-2 line LCD model ever produced by HP.

Note that a re-issued 15C is as likely to be banned as the 42S from relevant tests.


#47

"Note that a re-issued 15C is as likely to be banned as the 42S from relevant tests. "



No, it will not, (15C Platinum or rather Gold)

if it ever will appear and if it will follow the 12C Platinum style.

BUT I still would like to see that 42SX...

[VPN]

#48

"rsenzer" posted --

Quote:

If they were to re-issue the 15C, I would want to see it have a few of the additional features of the 32SII as well.

For me these capabilities would include:

  1. hex/oct/bin arithmetic as on the 32
  2. Extended range exponent (3 digit)
  3. Fraction capability
  4. The same type of 12 digit accuracy as on the 32SII or alternatively, the accuracy of the 30S and similar models
  5. Alphanumeric codes for the programming steps
  6. Constants and conversions as on the 30S/9G or the proposed 33S

(I took the liberty of numbering the items and capitalizing sentences.)

What additional features/capabilities would be included for others? ;-)

As Veli-Pekka correctly pointed out, a "15C Platinum" design (or, more sensibly, a "15S") should be patterned after the 12C Platinum. The idea would be not completely re-engineer the calc at significant cost, but rather to re-introduce the old favorite with some functional improvements and modern hardware.

The 12C Platinum has pretty much the same features in the same keyboard arrangement and package, including a very similar 7-segment, 10-digit display. These legible non-alphanumeric displays force all functions to be quickly accessible without menus or name-spelling. However, the amount of available functionality is limited by the numbers of function keys and shift keys.

On items 1, 3, and 6: Without menus, where would these functions be placed on the already-packed keyboard?

On item 5: How would this be implemented without a dot-matrix display?

On items 2 and 4: Reasonable suggestions, but these would require different display units, and -- more importantly -- 8-byte words instead of 7-byte. I'm not sure how extensive the impact to the ROM would be. However, I find it significant that the 12C Platinum retained the 10-digit mantissa/2-digit exponent format.

BTW, the 12-digit 30S display is terrible, with digits that are too tall for their width. More digits are not necessarity better, if that is the tradeoff.

Quote:

However, if you're going to re-issue the 15C, why not go the whole 9 yards and re-issue the 42S. I don't have a 42S, but from everything that I have heard and read, this is the best small 1-2 line LCD model ever produced by HP.

Note that a re-issued 15C is as likely to be banned as the 42S from relevant tests.


If the "15S" sticks to the 12C Platinum paradigm, it won't be banned.

I have a 42S also. Improving upon that one would be a lot of work, and possibly a substantial re-design. It needs I/O, a more-legible display, more complex-number functions, more memory (32 kB minimum) and a directory structure to go along with that (as the 28S got, to replace the 2-kB 28C). All this might be difficult to fit on the existing keyboard layout with only one shift key.

Do you think KinHPo would be up to the task? I have serious doubts.

Cheers,

-- Karl


#49

"1) hex/oct/bin arithmetic as on the 32

2) Extended range exponent (3 digit)

3) Fraction capability

4) The same type of 12 digit accuracy as on the 32SII or alternatively, the accuracy of the 30S and similar models

5) Alphanumeric codes for the programming steps

6) Constants and conversions as on the 30S/9G or the proposed 33S"

----------------------------------------

"The idea would be not completely re-engineer the calc at significant cost, but rather to re-introduce the old favorite with some functional improvements and modern hardware.



On items 1, 3, and 6: Without menus, where would these functions be placed on the already-packed keyboard?



On item 5: How would this be implemented without a dot-matrix display?



On items 2 and 4: Reasonable suggestions, but these would require different display units, and -- more importantly -- 8-byte words instead of 7-byte.

I'm not sure how extensive the impact to the ROM would be. However, I find it significant that the 12C Platinum retained the 10-digit mantissa/2-digit exponent format.
If the "15C Golden" sticks to the 12C Platinum paradigm, it won't be banned.



I have a 42S also. Improving upon that one would be a lot of work, and possibly a substantial re-design.

It needs I/O, a more-legible display, more complex-number functions, more memory (32 kB minimum)



All this might be difficult to fit on the existing keyboard layout with only one shift key.

===============================================

BOTH shift keys down would introduce a third shift level to the HP-15C Golden. This could be printed top-down to right of the keys in bright green.

No Alpha, sorry...we stick to the 12C Platinum



The HP-42SX already exists on drawing board where it was withdrawn by the board of directors...

[VPN]

#50

Hi Karl,

I was NOT off the topic in my posting.

I don't know what resources are available to HP to redesign calculators, but the wish list I provided is what I would want. I would not be particularly concerned about whether it came in the original 15C landscape style casing or a 32SII portrait style casing. Of course, such a redesign would require an alphanumeric display.

If HP wants to re-issue the 15C and if it were reasonably priced, I would welcome it and I would probably purchase it, but I would prefer to see what I suggested.

For clarification, the "12 digits" was a reference to accuracy, not to the display. I am not suggesting that HP use the 30S style display. In fact, the 12 digits was a reference to the accuracy of the recent RPN/RPL calculators. [Needless to say, an extended precision pi may be necessary internally for accurate trigonometric results, but that has to do with the internal algorithms for the trigonometric functions. This is a separate issue.]

I did re-read the NCEES calculator policy. Based on what it says, it looks like the proposed brand new 15C would satisfy the NCEES requirements.


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