Calculators banned by NCEES



#23

I seen the NCEES list of banned calculators for the upcomming exams, and have seen and read they also added the HP 41, will the HP42s be the next added to the list? Does anyone have information concerning this?


#24

HP 33S should do just fine. $50.00 at WALMART. I used a 48GX in the test (because it wasn't enforced yet) as well as an HP 11c and HP 12c. It wouldn't have taken me long to get the 33S to do all I needed it to do (engineering wise). I would still get a business calculator of some sort to take the test , if I were you.

#25

Only way to get a definitive answer on the 42S is from NCEES or your state board.

However, it does seem possible that the 42S will ultimately be banned. The 42S has text-entry capabilities similar to the 41 series (though it lacks an alphabetic keyboard). Furthermore, the 42S has an IR transmitter, and NCEES is *very* paranoid about wireless communication.

In fact, NCEES is seriously considering a proposal to ban *all* calculators except for those on a relatively short "approved" list. The "approved" list currently includes the HP 9G, 9S, 30S, 32S (presumably this includes the 32SII) and the forthcoming 33S. Only the 32S and 33S have RPN.

It is quite possible that NCEES will ban *all* other HP calculators by the end of the year. See

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/le_2003_12.pdf#right_direction


#26

Look, fellas, you prepare for the test with the tools you have available to you. Or in this case, the tools (calculator) you are allowed to have per NCEES rules. If you prepare for it with a $12.00 HP 9S, or a $50.00 HP 33S or a TI for that matter, you should pass. I will be the first to admit that if my HP 48GX crapped out on me during the test I might not have passed, and only because I wasn't prepared to take it without it. If you take the time to learn how to make your calculator solve the problems required for the test you actually learn the material better, and there is also a certain satisfaction derived from doing it. CME750! I have seen your posts all over this forum and the PPI forum and you sound to me like you are scared you can't do it without your calculator (HP 48?). If you can't then you don't need to pass. And I know that's not true. Buy an HP 33S and maybe another for backup. If you can't afford it, buy a cheap calculator and prepare with that. It's my personal opinion that the calculator ban, especially with the addition of the HP 41 -- I can't reconcile that one with the security issue, is really meant to get the people to learn the material instead of relying on modules and so forth available to them.




Brent

Edited: 10 Jan 2004, 2:32 p.m.


#27

Brent stated,

Quote:

It's my personal opinion that the calculator ban, especially with the addition of the HP 41 -- I can't reconcile that one with the security issue, is really meant to get the people to learn the material instead of relying on modules and so forth available to them.

That, I believe, is exactly right. I also happen to agree with that concept. The test should emphasize knowledge and the ability to analyze and solve problems, not tool-usage skills.

If I were taking the PE exam, I'd like to have my 48G, for its Equation Library, unit conversions, fast solving and integration, and complex-number capabilities. (My primary calc would be a 15C, 32Sii, or 42S, in that order.)

Those with 48GX's and the right Applications cards might have a greater advantage.


#28

The ban has nothing to do with application cards or modules. If it did, then the 48S and 48G would still be allowed, since they have no card slots. Yet NCEES has banned these models too.

NCEES has also banned TI and Casio graphing calculators -- the kind that are used by high school students. There are no application cards, and little or no engineering software, available for most of these models (lots of games though). So again, the ban has nothing to do with these issues.

NCEES has described their concerns in some detail in their publications, and it all comes down to one issue: security. All of the banned models (including the 41) have two features in common: an alphabetic keyboard for text entry, and a means of sending data to a PC. NCEES is afraid that someone will copy the exam and tranmit it to a computer. That's the bottom line.


#29

I do believe the 48 series is banned for the security reasons stated by NCEES. I also believe that the 41 series was removed because the advantage the modules give. Since they took away the 48 series, to be fair to everybody, they took away the 41's. That's my opinion, anyway.

#30

For most long-time HP-41 and HP-48 users, the issue is not the loss of advanced calculator features. The real issue is whether they can continue to use RPN.

Your advice is to "prepare for the test with the tools you have available to you". Fair enough, but what tools are available? Not the HP- 33S, unfortunately. The NCEES calculator ban was announced in August 2003. It's now January 2004, and you still can't buy a 33S. Until the 33S is something more than vaporware, this is really no choice at all.

So what else is available? Well, you could spend $200-300 for an old 32SII, 15C, or 11C (hope you didn't buy a 41, since these have just been added to the banned list). But that seems like quite an investment for a used calculator that is only needed for one 8-hour exam.

Or you could buy an HP9G, 9S, 30S, or even a Casio, TI, or Sharp. And retrain yourself to use a clumsy and inferior system after years (or decades) of using RPN.

These are all lousy choices. As it happens, I personally don't have to worry about it -- I have a 32SII, which is on the current NCEES "approved" list, and I am using it to prepare for the PE exam. But I am sympathetic to others (like Dave, the original poster in this thread) who do have to face this choice.

The blame for this unfortunate situation lies with HP, as well as with NCEES. HP has no trouble making inexpensive NCEES-compliant scientific calculators: the current-model 9G, 9S, and 30S all fill the bill. But for whatever reason, they can't seem to provide one that uses RPN.

NCEES also banned TI graphing calculators, but there has been little whining from TI owners, because NCEES-compliant algebraic scientific calculators are readily available at low cost. There is currently no such alternative for RPN scientifics. If HP had kept the 32SII in production through 2003, there would have been far less griping.

Edited: 11 Jan 2004, 12:31 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#31

Do you think there might be a Market for renting calcs?
If I was in the US, I would rent my 32Sii for 2 months $100 and I am sure I would get takers if the 33S does not come out.
As I am now I would lend it for free but only to people I know and trust and the only person in the US qualifying for this really does not care about my hp calc.

Arnaud


#32

I hope I didn't sound rough in my original post. If it were me about to take the test I would probably be a little perterbed, as well. Dave might have just now heard about it and is still suffering from shock. I think the 32SII is a superb calc for the test. Personally, I enjoy programming it and I get a thrill out of it, in fact. I just took the path of least resistence and used my 48GX because the ban wasn't enforced yet. The 33S will hopefully be out in time and everybody can rest easy, even though it's just a slightly glorified 32sii. As for the HP 33S, if any of HP's new calculators are any indication, it will feel tinny, funny, insubstantial and the keys might not all work on the first push. But I think the firmware is still what we want. I wish they would at least add some ballast or something... the new calcs really feel like you are holding a toy.


#33

If HP can deliver the 33S very soon, and if the 33S is of reasonable quality, then the 41, 48, and 49 users will have no excuse for further complaining about the NCEES ban.

But can HP do this? The answer is not clear. The introduction of the 33S has been repeatedly delayed over the past several months. And there have been serious quality issues with other recent HP models (for example, HP was forced to recall the 48GII). We can only hope that HP has learned a lesson, and that the 33S was delayed to ensure that any quality problems could be resolved.

The next NCEES exams are in mid-April, only about 90 days from now. There's still time for HP to get the 33S to market, and for 41, 48, or 49 users to order one and get comfortable with it before the exam. However, there's not a lot of extra time to spare.


#34

"If HP can deliver the 33S very soon, and if the 33S is of reasonable quality, then the 41, 48, and 49 users will have no excuse for further complaining about the NCEES ban."

I couldn't disagree more. The FE and PE tests are supposedly tests to determine one's ability to solve real world problems. When I'll be working at an engineering firm, they're never going to tell me "solve this problem, but you can't use (whatever technology is available)".

The NCEES board that regulates all this is phony as a 3 dollar bill. They don't even have the guts to come out and say "We hate technology, especially calculators, so they're banned." They hide behind "test security" and other nonsense to cover up their real motives. The NCEES are Luddites, and they are sneaky, underhanded SOBs to boot.

I wrote a tongue-in-cheek letter to the NCEES and they wrote the dean of engineering at my school as a way to try to try and muzzle me. NCEES obviously never heard of free speech.

What the US needs is an alternative form of engineering licensure that embraces technology, not rejects it.

J.C. Randerson


#35

J.C. posted,

Quote:

The FE and PE tests are supposedly tests to determine one's ability to solve real world problems.

I would certainly hope that the purpose of these exams is to assess people's knowledge and analytical abilities, as applied to a range of engineering problems. "Solving" the problem by obtaining the correct numerical answer should be only the final step in this process, which the test-taker ought not be able to short-circuit by simply plugging numbers into a ready-made application program.

In short, the exams should be about engineering knowledge and abilities, rather than tool-using skills.

Quote:

When I'll be working at an engineering firm, they're never going to tell me "solve this problem, but you can't use (whatever technology is available)".

I wrote a tongue-in-cheek letter to the NCEES and they wrote the dean of engineering at my school as a way to try to try and muzzle me. NCEES obviously never heard of free speech.


From these statements, I take it that you are now an enginnering student, not working as a full-fledged, degreed engineer.

In fact, you will very likely be expected to solve problems using the software tools that the firm has available, provided that said tools are adequate.

Would you care to make available this "tongue-in-cheek letter" to the Forum, and let us evaluate whether it was unreasonable for NCEES to contact your Dean? From the tone of your posting, it seems that your letter might have been found objectionable or offensive.

Quote:

The NCEES board that regulates all this is phony as a 3 dollar bill. They don't even have the guts to come out and say "We hate technology, especially calculators, so they're banned." They hide behind "test security" and other nonsense to cover up their real motives. The NCEES are Luddites, and they are sneaky, underhanded SOBs to boot.

Yada, yada, yada... But I think you are right about one point: There may be an ulterior motive to tighten the calc standards, and that is to "level the playing field" of resources used by test-takers. It so happens that the high-end graphing calcs that have communication and text-editing capabilities are also generally the ones that have large capacity for storage of program-libraries, including expansion modules/cards (The HP-42S is in-between these units and the basic AOS scientific calcs that NCEES would have us use).

Personlly, I passed the FE about 10 years ago; I am eligible to take the PE. The 15C served me well on the FE; that or the 32Sii would be my primary tool for the PE. We need to lobby for inclusion of the Voyager calc's on the "approved" list.

As a final note, I think there is value in imposing limits. I've heard that the FE used to be administered like the PE: Test-takers were to bring any and all of their own chosen references into the exam room. With testing rooms clogged with kiddie-wagons full of textbooks, NCEES finally said, "Enough!" I and others were allowed only the standard reference pamphlet for the FE exam in Spring 1994. I think that the system worked well.


#36

Everyone seems to have his own favorite tool. Those who habit this newsgroup tend to favor 'older' HPs, witness your own quote:

"Personlly, I passed the FE about 10 years ago; I am eligible to take the PE. The 15C served me well on the FE; that or the 32Sii would be my primary tool for the PE. We need to lobby for inclusion of the Voyager calc's on the "approved" list."

Now, Mr. Schneider, someday you may have to take your PE. Let's say the powers at NCEES have decided your favorite HP15C (I have one, by the way) and HP32 (I have one of these too) are too powerful. I wonder if your opinion on this would change any if they denied your favorite machine?

I could pass their test with a slide rule. Could you? (I've learned my Dad's old Aristo very well). I have a better ability to memorize technical material than anyone else I know. However, I do love my HP48 and 49. I've spent hours programming them. They're my programs, and they work just the way I want. It really ticks me off to have a bunch of old fashioned pinhead Luddites tell me I can't use my customized tool on their realworld test.

I know the mentality of Luddites. After the calculus series, dif.eqs, linear algebra with no calculator allowed, the pure mathematicians are marvelous Luddites. They are also some the most impractical people on Earth. All they do is pass the same old puzzles around to each other. They create nothing new - how boring, dull and unimaginative. I want to go forward, to create new technology that will be useful.

I'll end with this: one of the most creative thinkers and doers, Steven Wolfram, founder of Mathematica said "You'll never get anywhere continuing to do math by hand." He's absolutely right: after a certain point, technology is the key. Those can understand it, can really use it, program it will be the leaders of the future. Everyone else will be left behind.

J.C. Randerson


#37

J.C. posted,

Quote:

Now, Mr. Schneider, someday you may have to take your PE. Let's say the powers at NCEES have decided your favorite HP15C (I have one, by the way) and HP32 (I have one of these too) are too powerful. I wonder if your opinion on this would change any if they denied your favorite machine?

Under their present rules, the Voyagers and Pioneers (other than the 42S and 17B/ii) are acceptable. I admit, I'd be quite displeased if the 15C and 32Sii were subsequently banned or excluded from the specific "Approved" list, because there really would be no sound basis for that.

If a line is to be drawn somewhere, it shouldn't exclude the calcs that meet their present requirements. With < 500 bytes of RAM on the 15C and 32Sii, there's no way to bring capable programs in, or recorded test material out. Information also cannot be transmitted. What would be the basis for objection? These calcs are just good, efficient, easy-to-use number-crunchers, not answer-providers.

My RPL-based calcs (28C/48G/49G), however, can be loaded with routines that could conceivably do almost all the work of solving certain problems. The 48G also has an Equation Library; for that and other reasons, I'd want to bring it with me, if it weren't banned.

Quote:

[Steven Wolfram is] absolutely right: after a certain point, technology is the key. Those can understand it, can really use it, program it will be the leaders of the future. Everyone else will be left behind.

Dunno if I fully accept that statement. Wisdom, and the ability to understand and positively influence people will decide who becomes respected leaders with lasting legacies. The programmers and technocrats will generally have important, but less-prominent roles in society. Not necessarily a bad thing...


#38

"...I admit, I'd be quite displeased if the 15C and 32Sii were subsequently banned or excluded from the specific "Approved" list, because there really would be no sound basis for that."

There's no sound basis for banning the other calculators. But, as long as they don't ban your favorite calculator, everything's OK, right? You're as phony as the NCEES is.

J.C. Randerson


#39

J.C. posted,

Quote:

I have a better ability to memorize technical material than anyone else I know.

and,


There's no sound basis for banning the other calculators. But, as long as they don't ban your favorite calculator, everything's OK, right? You're as phony as the NCEES is.


Judging from your subsequent post in this thread of 12 Jan 2004, 5:58 p.m., you seem to like quotations. Here's one for ya, from the world of cinema:

Quote:
"A photographic memory is of absolutely no use to you, without the ability to analyze that vast mass of facts between your ears. Do you hear me, Brooks?"

-- Prof. Charles Kingsfield, to hapless law student Kevin Brooks in The Paper Chase (1973)


Now, I'm not suggesting that your fantastic memory is of the "photographic" see-it-and-it's-committed variety, but it's readily apparent to anyone reading your petulant drivel that you completely misrepresented my statements. You might also have mis-analyzed them; I couldn't really say.

If memory serves, this is not your first intellectually-incoherent diatribe of hot air against NCEES posted to this Forum (and apparently, to NCEES itself).

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? If not, then don't.


#40

You think a quote from a f****** movie compares to one from one of the best US military strategists?! Your judgement is pathetic! I wonder what the quality of your engineering work is...

The irony here is striking: when I had a few HP32s to sell I got over 300 emails, everyone wanted to be my buddy. When I state my opinion, now I'm a SOB, the whipping boy for all the politically correct newsgroup hangers-on.

Thank goodness school is starting again, I can turn my attention to something of genuine merit.

J.C. Randerson


#41

To clarify the question of your perceived irony:

a) As this is a HP calculator related site, it should not surprise you that many people here became interested in HP 32s units. HP calculators (specially 20th century models) are highly regarded here; such fact doesn't imply any positive or negative judgement about the person of their owner, buyer, or seller.

b) As your opinions left small space for different views, or often invoke quotes containing unrelated issues so to subtract value from other persons views; you should expect few supporters in a place where respect for knowledge and diversity is the standard behavior.

More specifically: Would you explain the logical relationship between a phrase from an indeed great general, the nationality of a person, and the correctness of this person opinions?

Your mention about "political correctness" seems to question the honesty of the usual respectful attitude of most HP Museum visitors. Given the current status of world affairs, I wonder if an aggressive or dismissing attitude could be considered more "politically correct" these days(and easier to follow) than to take the effort to develop your own understanding of a complex, multifaced reality.

I hold that the wise "If..." poem, by Rudyard Kipling deserves its share of reading and quotes.

I apologize in advance if my imperfect command of the English language prevents this message to convey its fully friendly intention.

Edited: 15 Jan 2004, 5:06 p.m.


#42

Well, it seems we can get a glimpse at this person:

(After opening one of the links below, just type "randerson" into your "edit\find on this page" to find the specific quotations within each link).

The up-shot is that he seems to be an "engineering student." And he can be a bit cranky and narrow-minded. H also has a sense of humor--but I daresay one that might work better in person where he can smirk.

Note that as he is an "engineering student" we should not take his attacks at various persons' ability to "engineer" at all seriously. He doesn't know the practice of engineering! Rather, we can see him for what he really is: a kid who thinks he is more precocious than he actually is. In my opinion, it is best to simply let his future comments, be they pernicious, die on the vine.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bwt/message/202

http://www.grahamkendall.net/HP48-49/b49

http://forums.wolfram.com/student-support/topics/4467

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3176616.stm

Edited: 16 Jan 2004, 3:20 p.m.

#43

Yet more astounding drivel from J.C.! --

Quote:

You think a quote from a f****** movie compares to one from one of the best US military strategists?! Your judgement is pathetic! I wonder what the quality of your engineering work is...

Wha-aat?? Are you saying that a directly-applicable statement of dialogue from a drama cannot be as thought-provoking or valuable as any out-of-context utterance by a real person in another era? That's absolute nonsense, just like the bizarre ad hominem salvo that followed -- one of many you have posted here.

Quote:

The irony here is striking: when I had a few HP32s to sell I got over 300 emails, everyone wanted to be my buddy. When I state my opinion, now I'm a SOB, the whipping boy for all the politically correct newsgroup hangers-on.

The irony here is that, by your own statements, you keep validating the criticisms that have been levied at you, but you don't even seem to recognize it. Analytical and philosophical incompetence, hypocrisy (insisting on the right to "free speech" while abusing it at every opportunity), the list goes on...

BTW, there is no absolute right to "free speech" here; it is a private service run by the site host, who has the ability and every moral right to purge your posts and block any others that you submit -- in the interest of quality of content, if nothing else. "Free speech" applies only to restrictions of governmental censorship of communication, not all of which is protected... but I suppose that this is all lost on you, anyway ...

I ask you to read the posts by Steve Ramsey and Andres Rodriguez; I hope some of it sinks in.

Quote:

Thank goodness school is starting again, I can turn my attention to something of genuine merit.

Good. In addition to your regular collegiate(?) studies, you might consider a course in logic and reason. School should also offer you a safe haven from the real world for which you don't seem quite ready.

#44

> I have one of these too

Nice.

> I have a better ability to

So.

> After the calculus series, dif.eqs, linear algebra with no calculator allowed, the pure mathematicians are marvelous Luddites... They create nothing new

What do you think made the travel to the moon possible ? A HUUUUGE rocket put on a straight line -or- differential equations applied to find a complex trajectory ?

Computer hardware has nearly not changed compared to mankind's mathematical knowledge in the last 50 years.
There is no substitute for cubic inches... apart from a brain.


#45

How nice to hear from one of our French "allies".

"I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a
French division behind me." - General George Patton


#46

OK, JC! I made fun of the French on this board the other day but I was quoting "The Onion" and trying to be funny, and really meant no harm. I don't post here often but I do read the forum almost everyday, and GE is a regular poster here and you are kind of an interloper (me too, perhaps). So knock it off.


#47

"knock it off"? Ever hear of free speech?

J.C. Randerson

#48

I will suggest that Mr. Randerson would find a better place to discuss these issues on a PE test forum, not on this calculator forum. Clearly, he does not understand the international character of this virtual world (nor the real world, for that matter).

Some people here are French, others are American, yet others are expatriate French in the US, and vice versa. And some are indeed German. Notwithstanding that it has only been 60 years since the melt-down of "western" civilization, I feel that ethnic, nationalistic or racial slurs are damaging to the spirit of this forum. Note that I am not declaring that a person is not entitled to have his or her own views (whether well informed or not); rather, that what we are collectively achieving here on this forum transcends those differences.

Bill Platt


#49

#50

I usually only read the postings on this forum because I enjoy getting a glimpse of how technically minded people think, but I thought I might add my two cents for a change by sharing a couple of thoughts concerning the use of technology with respect to technical problem solving.

I am a Naval Officer that has been out of school (as an undergraduate) for a little over 10 years now. As a submariner, it was absolutely imperative that I had a very good understanding of the ins and outs of nuclear power. If (heaven forbid) some kind of power plant casualty occurred, it was expected that I would be able to instantly apply sound engineering judgment based on technical training and experience to correct the problem or minimize equipment damage/injury to personnel. When a piece of equipment malfunctions in such a way as to jeopardize a nuclear power plant, it is not acceptable to say, "Hold on, let me go get my calculator so that I can figure this out."

Some of you might read the preceding and say, "OK ,sailor boy, I've got a civilian job where the rules are much different; your experience doesn't really apply to me."
Working in a technically-oriented profession means that when your co-workers, superiors, or subordinates ask for your technical opinion, you have to know what you're talking about. Granted, if you're given a project to accomplish in a few weeks, you'll probably have access to some advanced tools to help to you meet your goal. But what are you going to do when you're sitting in a meeting with the boss and s/he asks for your opinion on a technical issue? Pull out your calculator and start mashing buttons? You'd better be able to come up with a thumbrule-level approximation on the spot, or the people you work with will start to loose confidence in you.

Technology has allowed us to do some pretty amazing things in the last couple of decades, but I think someone who is truly technically-oriented should avoid allowing any piece of equipment or software to become a crutch instead of a tool. Keep in mind that this post is designed only to generate civil discussion, not as a personal attack towards any individual.


#51

Yours is a very good point, much more than 2 cents worth!

#52

Quote:
Would you care to make available this "tongue-in-cheek letter" to the Forum, and let us evaluate whether it was unreasonable for NCEES to contact your Dean? From the tone of your posting, it
seems that your letter might have been found objectionable or offensive.

Regardless of the content or tone of his letter, I think it was out of line for them to contact his Dean. If I received an unpleasant letter from someone, no matter how offensive, I would not even consider contacting his school or employer about it. Of course we don't really know if there was anything offensive in the letter or not... I just think private communication should have remained private. But from what I've read of NCEES lately, I have a very low opinion of them now anyway.


#53

Dear NCEES:

In in the interest of additional test security the following should be immediately implemented:

(1) Tests should be administered in the yard of the local penitentiary. The oppressive atmosphere will reduce the tendency to cheat or smuggle out questions.

(2) Testees should completely stripped of all clothing. This will greatly reduce questions being smuggled out. The embarrassment of being naked in front of others will have a huge psychological impact, reducing the incentive to cheat. After the test body cavity searches should be conducted to ensure no test questions are smuggled out.

(3) Test questions should not be given in written form, but displayed on a screen for 30 seconds. This will also greatly reduce questions being smuggled out.

(4) Absolutely no calculators, slide rules or other calculating apparatus should be allowed. Each testee should be given a chalkboard, with only chalk to write with. A proctor will go from student to student, writing down each testee's answer. The constant intrusion of a proctor will also greatly reduce the testee's ability to cheat.

(5) Should a testee be able to smuggle out questions despite these additional measures, he should hired by the NCEES as a final security precaution.


#54

The funny thing is that all it would take to get a copy of the questions would be for someone with a photographic memory to take the test, then transcribe all the questions later. If I had the time and money to waste I'd hire someone to do just that and then post the test (anonymously) on the Internet, just to demonstrate how ludicrous this whole "calculator security" issue is.

#55

Thank you for this great inspiration!

As a chairman of the Rules Committee I will personally see that many of your suggestions will be followed.

The penitentiary will not go through because these places are usually more pleasent than schools...

[JT]

#56

Please post the letter you sent them.

#57

I think the calculator is more of an issue for EEs taking the PE than other disciplines. I also have used an HP48GX for years. I have come to terms with the issue and plan on using a very old HP 15C made in 1984. If anyone happens to find one of these it can work with complex numbers and has Matrix functions. It can't communicate or accept any extra memory or cards. Lets see if NCEES refuses to let me us it. I have a HP 9g and a HP 33s on order since Jan 4 but its not in my hands and I can't find any detaled information on it HP tec support said look at the picture, delivery date is 2-1-04. The picture has CMPLX and tec support said it should be able to solve a 3X3 if you write a program. By the way they must be selling like hot cakes because Wal-Mart does not have them for sale any more. I think the calculator is a much bigger issue than NCEES admits.


#58

Ricky,
While the 15C should certainly be allowed, it is not a certainty that it would be. As of now, the NCEES has a "banned calculator" list. Although they have the “banned” list, they state the following "Please keep in mind that this list is NOT all-inclusive. If your calculator has the ability to store a string of text and communicate it in any way, it will not be permitted." In answer to the question "What about calculators not shown on the approved or prohibited lists? Are they allowed in the exam room?" they answer "If the calculator has an IR port or cable and/or text-editing capabilities, it will not be allowed." The 15C has the letters "A", "B", "C", "D", and "E" prominently displayed above the leftmost 5 keys on the top row. A very conservative proctor might decide that these letters may indicate "text editing" capabilities, and disallow your 15C. They will probably err on the side of caution and really lean toward only allowing the "approved" calculators.
For the long term, if you read the NCEES newsletter, their stated goal is to change the rules so that only calculators on the approved list will be allowed, to make it easy on the proctors. As they establish this "approved list", I don't think they will want to have to review every calculator ever made to determine if it should be on this list, then check each test-taker's calculator against this very long list when they arrive to take the test. I'm guessing they will want to keep it short and probably fairly current, so the 15C will likely not be on it. Bottom line, if you are taking the test this Spring, you might be able to use the 15C since it is not on the "banned" list, but then again, you might not. By the Fall tests, they may be enforcing the "only calculators on the approved list" rule, and the 15C likely will not be on the list.


Edited: 19 Jan 2004, 12:28 p.m.

#59

If this board is any indication, HP could make a top of the line calc made in America, Brazil, etc. and sell it for top dollar and do OK.

Edited: 10 Jan 2004, 7:43 p.m.

#60

Quote:
However, it does seem possible that the 42S will ultimately be banned. The 42S has text-entry capabilities similar to the 41 series (though it lacks an alphabetic keyboard). Furthermore, the 42S has an IR transmitter, and NCEES is *very* paranoid about wireless communication

And the fact that the IR of the HP-42S is only one-way? :-)

/Erik


#61

Yes, one-way IR communication is an issue. This may or may not make sense, but that is the current NCEES position.
Here's what NCEES says:

"Of great concern is the ability to type in text, store it in memory, and then communicate via wireless or cable connections to another calculator, personal computer, printer, or other electronic device."

"If your calculator has the ability to store a string of text and communicate it in any way, it will not be permitted."

http://www.ncees.org/exams/calculators/#prohibited


#62

Quoting:

"If your calculator has the ability to store a string of text and communicate it in any way, it will not be permitted."

Does this include communicating it by displaying it on the display??? (A legal interpretation I admit but do they realy mean this?)

On all claculators you can store 0.553, 710, (look upside down) and on hex enabled models you can store C0FFEE, ACE, BAD etc. Do these count a string of text - or am I giving the NCEES ideas? ;-)


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