Carly Fiorina in the News ...



#2

(no I am not making this up, its from Yahoo. Its a simple 'nuff story. Carly, who brings us finest quality 'kinpo' calculators and calculators shaped like cowcatchers, advocates shipping away all of America's best technology and jobs to people starving in mud huts ..... "In Carly We Trust" .....


"Tech Firms Defend Moving Jobs Overseas"

Wed Jan 7, 2:56 PM ET

Business - AP - Yahoo

by TED BRIDIS, AP Technology Writer

WASHINGTON - Leading technology companies urged Congress and
the Bush administration Wednesday not to impose new trade
restrictions aimed at keeping U.S. jobs from moving overseas, where labor costs are lower.

The companies said such policies would do little to resolve long-standing problems more broadly affecting America's global competitiveness, such as low-scoring schools and inadequate research spending.
Erecting trade barriers, the corporations said, "could lead to retaliation from our trading partners and even an all-out trade war."

(boo hoo hoo, you mean that $2 Kinpo calculator will cost me $4 ??)

The effort shows the industry's growing concerns that lawmakers may clamp down on the "offshoring" of U.S. jobs during an election year. Already, some Democratic candidates have criticized the practice.

"There is no job that is America's God-given right anymore," Carly Fiorina, chief executive for Hewlett-Packard Co., said Wednesday. "We have to compete for jobs."


(Hmmmmmmmm OK lets get rid of Carly's job. We could replace her with a starving Mexican getting $4 a week. Lot cheaper and would do a better job too).


#3

I think we have to accept as inevitable that jobs in general will migrate globally, just as products do. In general, this has been good for most people, even though some individuals are affected. It's also inevitable that as an economic power, the US will probably wind up as one of several in the next 20-40 years. There's a good interview with management guru Peter Drucker in this week's Fortune explaining why this is happening.

Trade and job migration across national borders really isn't that much different than it is across state borders, city boundaries, or even between your family and mine: we all benefit from people specializing, and from trading with others.

Drucker points out, interestingly, that many good jobs are migrating to the US. Many jobs require customer contact (and we have a lot of customers.) Other jobs work well here because labor is a relatively small part of the total product cost.

Yes, I am concerned for self and friends, but in the long run, we're all doing better. (And 100 years from now, the robots will do all the work!!)


#4

As we move tech stuff overseas (and not just mfg 'labor') to China we are enabling them to create higher-tech weapons systems with which to confront us - both thru the actual technology as well as the increased revenue base.

Where will the base of software & hardware engineers come from to keep our weapons systems top-notch? The US consumer economy has driven electronics progress so well that innovations are crossing from the consumer sector back into the military, driving costs down and performance up.

China is NOT a 'trade partner'. It is an enemy state that will slowly (as Lenin said) 'hang us by our own rope'. Trade with China will not foster democracy, reduce tensions or trigger a broad-based elevation of living standards for the average Joe Wang, unlike our industrial booms.

And much of the Chinese innovation is by stealing - not honoring IP/patents/copyrights. (For example, China's making an exact copy of a new GM car: GM isn't protesting because it wants some other business.

It will drive out the last ounce of profit in terms of global pricing power, reducing worldwide R&D spending.

Labor costs of outsource-target countries can of course be "competitive" against ours or Japan or Europe's: we don't sh*t in our own water supply.

Furthermore, in the case of CEOs like Boeing's Phil Condit (now gone due to other scandals) and Loral's Bernie Schwartz, so-called 'dual-use' technologies were shipped in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge fashion to China and were promptly used in a military fashion. Both Condit & Schwartz should be tried (and hung) for treason. [If they'd pulled the same shenanigans in the late 60s or 70s with the USSR, they could well have been charged with espionage.]

A war with China will be inevitable - in 15 years? 30 years? Who knows. They've already threatend Los Angeles with a nuclear attack over the Taiwan dispute.) Better to get it over with now while we have the edge. The civilized world (US, Europe and Japan) will benefit.

My rifle's ready :)

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA


#5

Here is the URL of an interesting report about China's modernization published in 1999: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/chinamod.pdf

#6

Well this is some strong stuff here...

I have mixed feelings about this myself. Moving jobs to 'cheaper' countries means pepole out of work at home. That means more costs through social welfare and increased criminality, both of which cost a lot for the entire community and slow down economy. Definitely not a good general idea.

But going to a preventive war with China? Aren't you exaggerating a bit?

Besides, I simply don't believe that democracy can be imposed onto a country by force, as the Bush government seems to think. Helping other countries through innovation support etc. is a *much* better way of spreading democray, IMHO. It's the same with the way you treat foreign people in a country: Isolate them, and you create subcultures and lots of problems. Integrate them, and they will evetually become citizens of your country like yourself, living the same way and standing in for the same values.

Cheers, Victor


#7

Yah right on.
Every last one of these greedy Carly-type of CEO's that
ships the factory off to some 3rd world mud-hole is

spectacularly ignorant of the history of the world being

almost entirely nation vs. nation warfare.

So they think that China is gonna carefully ship all the

factory tools back just after the war starts ?

We will be brought to our knees because our darling CEO's

have shipped out all our engines of industry to the enemy.

Well face it, they are globalists anyway, they are banking their

financial future on a presumption that the USA will become

one more state that falls into line underneath a global

world government run by Coffee Annan or... just as likely .... Darth Vader .

We can always hope they are wrong and they get wiped out.

You don't see ME sending all my possessions and money

away to the rice paddies of China, as Carly is doing, ha ha.

#8

victor,
i'm afraid your posting is something close to 'off topic' or, 'P.v.d.S.' as one would put it in german.

very best regards
Hans

#9

Victor wrote:

"I have mixed feelings about this myself. Moving jobs to 'cheaper' countries means pepole out of work at home. That means more costs through social welfare and increased criminality, both of which cost a lot for the entire community and slow down economy. Definitely not a good general idea."

This is not the case. The jobs market is not a "zero-sum game" as economists like to describe it. In simple terms there is no total fixed number of jobs to be retained or lost abroad. Jobs in any economy are being created and lost all the time.

They do however change, and your country needs to be able to meet the demands of that change.

A couple of posts in this thread have described the recipients of these "lost" jobs as "starving" and "dirt poor". This is a stupid attitude to take for two reasons:

1) They aren't starving and they aren't poor. Any foreigner that can take over an American's job can speak at least two languages. That makes them relatively highly-skilled and they are well-paid (in local terms) for those skills. Well paid people are rarely starving.

2) Thinking of them as poor and starving blinds you to the real threat. You need now - and I mean *now* - to sort out your education system to give your next generation of workers any hope of getting and keeping a job they want to do as opposed to one they have to do.

Your universities are your competitive advantage. Use them.

You have an election coming up later this year: vote for someone who takes education seriously.


#10

Bruce Wayne...no..Horrocks wrote:
"Victor wrote:

"I have mixed feelings about this myself. Moving jobs to 'cheaper' countries means pepole out of work at home. That means more costs through social welfare and increased criminality, both of which cost a lot for the entire community and slow down economy. Definitely not a good general idea."

This is not the case. The jobs market is not a "zero-sum game" as economists like to describe it. In simple terms there is no total fixed number of jobs to be retained or lost abroad."

Misinformation! The greedness in overwhelming and the media & research about jobs are totally corrupted to support greedness. Naturally any job moved from US to China is away from a poor US fellow and he starves...
[VPN]

#11

A couple of Afgans can kill a few thousands Americans without ever getting any US jobs.

China could without any problems destroy any US city they want if they wanted (by the way your riffle would be useless) and they didn't need hp jobs for that.

My advice, if you can't fight them, join them.

Arnaud

PS: By the way my girlfriend is Chinese


#12

Quote:
a couple of Afgans can kill a few thousands Americans without ever getting any US jobs.

China could without any problems destroy any US city they want if they wanted (by the way your riffle would be useless) and they didn't need hp jobs for that.

My advice, if you can't fight them, join them.

Arnaud
PS: By the way my girlfriend is Chinese


So was my ex-Girlfriend. (Actually, Taiwanese.) This is not a racial issue (I'm a supporter of Taiwan, esp if they wouldn't do so much biz w/Red China). This is a country-to-country issue - are we going to elect leaders that sell us out?

China can NOT yet destroy any US city they want. Their missles can only target a few west coast cities, don't have the range for any further and are unreliable/unprecise.

Join them? Over my dead body. Yes, we don't need to put 'boots on the ground' on China - why seize it, not worth the trouble - but we can isolate it, stop paying for their education in US colleges/universities, penalize others for doing business with it, interrupt trade with it (a couple of ships w/their goods sunk would make them think!). Surround them with look-down/shootdown radar and some Aegis cruisers and they'd be shut down.

I don't care about democracy in China. Actually, continued repression in China may be GOOD for the US.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA


#13

??


#14

Please forgive Bill Wiese---his one weakness is that he strays occasionally into a ranting frame of mind in regards to international issues involving the loss of American supremacy and the impending Chinese hegemony...but he is more often taken to contributing real technical topics and stories of interestregarding HP calculators.


Heck, in the US, we do not have a free press, nor an informed public any longer. All the major news orgs, and many smaller ones, are owned by Big Corporate and are no longer "free". At least we get some news here on MoHPC ;-!


I'll forgive him (just cool this thread for now).


-Bill


#15

I was in good mood for a flamming war but as I regard this forum very highly for its content, I refrained, I should have earlier. From now on, I will only reply to provocative posts on comp.sys.hp48 and will spend this weekend doing surgery on one of my 45s and maybe using this forum as it should. (Althought this post does not relate in any way to Carly)

Arnaud who is happy not to work for hp any more (though not with the business of his current US employer)

#16

true enemy is war itself (Denzel Washington as XO in Crimson Tide)
'May God help you if you are wrong'
'If I'm wrong, that means we're at war, then God help us all!'

#17

Bill Wiese wrote:
> China can NOT yet destroy any US city they want. Their missles can only target a few
> west coast cities, don't have the range for any further and are unreliable/unprecise.

What? The Chinese have launchers that can put Soyuz-class vehicles into orbit with reentry capability and quite accurate landing. Their recent launch of a Chinese astronaut into to orbit is proof of their abilities.

Are you thinking of the North Koreans?

**vp


#18

Hi VP
I think it's time we all let this OT dog rest ;)
Simply stated, I try to not buy any product made in Red China (or that has minimal Red Chinese content).

IIRC, read somewhere that there were weight limits w/reentry vehicles for warhead, and guidance was limited, and that the west coast of US was the 'targeted area'. Could be wrong... but when they threatened to take out LA if we would intervene in Taiwan, that leads me to beleive they have only one fat target yet.

Bill

Quote:
Bill Wiese wrote:
> China can NOT yet destroy any US city they want. Their missles can only target a few
> west coast cities, don't have the range for any further and are unreliable/unprecise.

What? The Chinese have launchers that can put Soyuz-class vehicles into orbit with reentry capability and quite accurate landing. Their recent launch of a Chinese astronaut into to orbit is proof of their abilities.
Are you thinking of the North Koreans?
**vp


#19

suffering from is called paranoia. It is that very same disease that is slowly becoming life-threatening to the rest of the world. In Europe - one of your civilised countries - about 70 % of the population is thinking of the States and Israel as far more threatening to world peace than any other country (official enquiry by the EU).
'Sadam Hussein and the Weapons of Mass Destruction': it could be the title of a comic book.
Israel and the US are making a habit of violating about every international law, agreement or regulation.
Mind me dear sir, I am by no means defending terrorism,because that is probably the biggest disease man has ever confronted. All I'm trying to point out is that by propagating feelings of hatred, only more hatred will be the result.Presidents like Clinton, Carter, Gorbatsov, spoke a language of reconciliation and in doing so they were the great statesmen of the twentieth century.It is in showing that it is sensitive to the problems of the world that the US can be a truly great nation, not by imposing its culture, its values and its way of life upon everybody else.
If you come to Europe, you will find that Americans are very highly regarded, but I strongly believe that the American society should regularly question itself, put itself into perspective, open for discussion, as all nations should by the way.
I sincerely hope I have offended no one and wish all of you the best for 2004.
I have been reading your forum often, but rarely post anything myself. Great site, Mr. Hicks!!!


#20

you can take away my HP-34C

when you pry my cold dead fingers off

the battery charger

:o)

#21

This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted.

#22

BW <And much of the Chinese innovation is by stealing - not honoring IP/patents/copyrights.>

Well, this is a very old story. Way back in the 19th (!) century, the same was said about Germany "stealing British technology" (talking about steam engines etc. at that time). Remember the label "Made in Germany" was once meant to protect the British industry. You know perfectly what came out ...
I personally remember the times where Japanese radio products were seen as cheap mockups of quality devices made in the western world. And today? Is there any competitive radio company in US anymore?? Sony & Co. all over the nation!
I think this is just the way the system works. Hungry people will always try the get the food they need. This is because they are far better motivated (a hungry stomach is the best motivation you can think of). Given sufficient brains they will succeed. And the Chinese have proven to be intelligent enough at times already where America even did not know the wheel (sometimes Americans should remember this, although I doubt they will).
So please do not complain about such basic historical procedures. It has always been this way and will continue to be so. Just strive to stay ahead!

#23

FWIW, Robert X. Cringely (the actual guy, not the pseudononymous InfoWorld columnist) included the following in his predictions for 2004:

"A year ago, I wrote that HP/Compaq would continue its long slide to oblivion, and if you look underneath the corporate numbers, you'll see I was correct. The promised synergies have been minimal, growth nonexistent, and the companies are several billion dollars behind where they would have been had they remained separate."


#24

thats good stuff.

Thanks Paul.

Getting off-topic now (apologies to all passers-by) but what about Kodak... same principle at work. They are obviously sliding towards dropping their original products involving film..... the more they neglect what originally made them great..... the more assured is their demise. I can see the day coming they will drop Kodachrome, and leave all the faithful scrambling to buy a roll... or develop it. IMHO.

I got a chuckler about "APS"... Kodak's format demonstrating the boardroom IQ of an amoeba.... the day it came out (95?) I said 'what a lemon' ... now it looks like Kodak themselves are going to drop it..... after less than 10 yrs!! If they had ENLARGED the frame area, rather than REDUCED the frame area, they would have a winner to this day. People want more resolution not less. The winning format would've been called 'Super 35' and would be competing well against digital even today... they should've held the 35mm dimension but got rid of the sprocket holes.... what do people want from digital? more pixels...... more pixels....... MORE pixels... oh? and that was not the case with film ? they wanted less resolution? they wanted APS? NOT! We need a website purely for CEO clown-antics watchers..... suggest we start www.ceoclowns.com


#25

No site can support that type of bandwidth.

And that is just submissions.

I admit to all that it is easier to armchair quarterback a company than actually run it. But there are lots of no brainer decisions that the company chiefs make that are just plain Stupid.

I've personally seen my share, and my own blood boils upon reflection. When I read about some of the horse baloney reasoning, I see RED (and not the Chinese)!

#26

Comparing APS to 35mm, I think, misses the mark that Kodak was trying to hit. I think APS was the consumer products upgrade for the old line of 10mm cameras, including that circular film disc thingy that didn't catch on. No, APS wasn't as pixelly as 35, but it was a significant improvement over 10mm, and offered some new worthwhile features.

(Bear in mind, the above is one consumer's-eye-view, and I never owned an APS camera.)

If Kodak chemical imaging (or whatever the current generalized title for the film unit happens to be) is on the ropes, what about Polaroid? Digital has to have them waving bye-bye!

And, with regard to armchair quarterbacking of CEO's & organizations, I'm just about through with Gerstner's book, "Who Says Elephants Can't Dance?" Looking at what he did with IBM (admittedly, almost solely from the perspective the he presents in his book) vs. what Carly Fiorina and the H-P board have done to H-P, the comparison seems telling. IBM seems to have significantly changed corporate culture and self-definition, and in the process focussed on its strengths, halted some of its distractions, tapped some internal assets for real value, and become a newly competitive player in a VERY competitive arena. While H-P strives to become just another consumer electronics company . . .

(And, by the way -- Kodak: I know it's too late, but I can't help myself. Bring back Ektar 25!)

#27

In response to Norm's comment about leaving off the sprocket holes on 35 mm film:

There was a format that did that! (but just on one side). It was called "Super 828" and slides shot with it were referred to as "828 Super Slides".

I believe that 828 film was discontinued sometime in the 1950's.

--Mark


#28

Got some good responses there, thanks all.

I like what Ron said ...... http:www.ceoclowns.com

could never handle that much traffic, ha ha ! true!

I'll have to look into "828" . From the 1950's OK. Some of the best stuff was in the 1950's. You could have georgeous color stereo-slides called "Stereo Realist" that were beyond reproach, you could even project them to a very high quality level. Bill Gates and his servants have yet to even imagine something so fine, much less actually have it for sale.... Stereo-Realist is not dead... there are little hobby-clubs of faithful stereo-realist photographers, to this day, because the product was that good.

I suppose that SOMEDAY the microsoft society will come up with something about 50% as good as stereo-realist (a double digital camera) but you'll be waiting a lonnnng time!

Bring back the good stuff! Bring back HP-34C.

Even Bush is about to formally make policy, to dust off the blueprints for the Apollo rocket, and build THAT. Except with new-millennium profiteering and greed, building the old blueprint will cost 30 times more in adjusted dollars. He's trying to trick the public into thinking he thought of something 'new'. Excuse me while I go flip my vinyl record.

:o)


#29

re 828: My dad used to shoot 828 slides. We still have them, some from my earliest Christmases (late 1940's). They are in good condition and easily viewable - you pop them in the slide projector (an ancient, but useful device) and there they are. How many of today's digital formats will still be viewable as easily in 2060?!?!?! He did change over to 35 mm in the '50s, when the 828 (I believe there was also a same-size image format numbered 128) film was discontinued.

I have a digital camera, but I still shoot 35 mm when I want archival quality and resolution.

When I want really INSTANT results, I still get out the Polaroid. You can't (yet?!) match its speed and convenience, even with digital. In fact, for a while, you could get a gizmo that would print your digital camera images on Polaroid film!

#30

Although the APS format is a bit smaller than 35mm, it does have a few things going for it. Mainly in its ability to keep negatives organized, cataloged, and protected. Each cartridge comes with a code number and barcode which is also on each frame.

I know of a couple of companies that use it to document production of complex techo-goodies. An APS camera is kept with the item along the production line with pictures snapped at key points along the way. The cartridge of negatives is kept on file. They are always in order and well protected from the environment.


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