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Clonix module real price.



#2

Hi all, I've received several e-mails regarding this subject and the FSOBO ad. I'd like to make an attempt in order to clarify some aspects: (please remove if you cansider this is not appropriate for the forum. 123456)

By one hand my FSBO ad was not intended to produce confussion. There are hundreds of such ads, and they seem reasonable for most users, (me included.)

On the other hand, the "real price" shouldn't be affordable (nor even reasonable) by most of the 41'ers enthusiast community (again, me included!).

As some you have pointed out, this "real" price is composed of:

Components cost: (PCB's, PIC, Xtal and resistor) wich are not very expensive indeed.

Module Housing: Extremely variable cost, in some cases including several hours of searching at e-Bay, writing e-mails to contact a seller, time to go to the Post office to pick up the parcels, car/cab/bus, etc. Even a mean value is difficult to calculate as the next few modules can shift the overall price considerably up or down. Further more, some modules do not allow opennig-resealing surgery, this can also increment the mean cost.

Manufacturing/testing/programming time: Mostly the same for every module once the shell is opened and ready.

Up to this point the overall cost can anyhow be calculated within a reasonable range of accuracy, and not too much effort, in some 50 - 70 Euro.

The last point is, by far, the most uncountable, namely, R&D time. There had been necessary literally over one thousand hours. Even considering them as for my regular "salary" they can easily turn into the 30.000 - 40.000 Euro range. No, this is not an overkill. These are real figures and turns the rest of cost items into almost irrelevant.

It has been stated, and it seems quite reasonable for me too, that the world wide 41 enthusiast community groups about one hundred people. So considering all of the above and a fairly moderate business profit of a 30%, the "real" price should easily rise above 500 Euro, provided the whole 100 comunnity buy one of them!, an optimistic proyection of 75% market saturation will lead us to a 33% price increment to keep the business profit range, and the "shelf" price will become something around 630Euro. Which is *absolutelly unacceptable*!!.

The first consequence of that "calculated" price should be that most of users should decided to keep on living without a Clonix in their lives... As has always been... But, this is just the opposite of what this project was intended for: Offer *every* user the opportunity of getting rid of e-Bay collector's price tyranny.

So, FOBO (quite similar to any other Auction method) is, to my eyes, a good method to let *this* very community, to determine what "value" a Clonix is worth, according to what it *does*, instead of setting its "price" by business standard procedures and only looking at what it *cost*.

Should I was really seeking for money:

1- I would *never* even started this project.

2- I would never let the related info to be publicly available. (Remember that it's there where the R&D time is *enclosed*). So anyone can build his/her own Clonix, without having to pay me a single cent.

3- I would try to pick-up a really ugly, old and nasty full of $$$ widow..., er... well may I change the last option for kinda top model ;-)

Best wishes and Merry Xmas for all of you.

Diego.


#3

Diego,

I wonder what percentage of OEM modules do not cooperatively open, and if this can be improved by first soaking them in some kind of solvent? Should there be two prices for the Clonix, one with and one without a module trade-in? Surely, most collectors have a module they can do without, especially considering the capabilities they gain with the Clonix.

Perhaps future products can be developed more as a team project so as to lessen the hours that one person spends in development. Then again, it wouldn't be your "baby," and committees are notorious for never finishing things.

Should you wish to pursue option number 3, let me know as there are plenty of ugly, old, nasty, wealthy widows here in Palm Beach. :-)

Best regards,

David


#4

Changing the subject, I think FRAM makes a lot of sense for the next project. Do you think 256 Kb is enough? Devices can be had for less than USD 10.00, and given the costs of other aspects of the development and manufacture as you point out, I think this is very reasonable.

Let me know if you need me to send you some parts.

David


#5

Hi again David,

Yes, I'm decided to use FRAM as the RAM devices in my 2004 NoVRAM project. I'm determined to keep power figures at the lowest possible level.

One 256k must be enough, conveniently packed it can accept up to six 4k pages, and still a 2KBytes scratch-pad, flags, mapping... area is available.

I'm still considering interfacing/footprint questions (serial-small vs. parallel-easy), will contact you for samples once the whole idea turns a bit clearer.

Thanks again for your support.

Diego.

#6

Hi David,

For now the usable/unusable shell "ratio" is 5/1, and I don't really think kinda solvent can be used without damaging the whole shell and/or connector or, at least, deteriorate its external shape... I'm not "chemy" expert though.

Yes, there will be a lower price for buyer supplied shell(s), I've dicussed this question seriously with other users and the price range is well defined. I'll take some time after Xmas to built as many units as shells I can collect, and will place a fixed price (FS) ad. for these as well as said rebate for used supplied shell. For now the FSBO ad is "alive" so I'll keep the price range "closed" until next monday.

Quote:

"Committees are notorious for never finishing things"

What else can I say?... You've got the right picture!

But, more important than Clonix...

Please consider option 3-(b) also, and send me detailed (and graphical) info regarding wealthy top-models' availability in your area, ASAP... ;-)

Regards and Merry Xmas.

Diego.

#7

I can sure understand the basis for your pricing decision even though I would never (and haven't on this site) have made a bid on an item with no posted bid amounts and auction ending period. If I was to really bid my maximum bid, it would only be under the openness of ebay - not a B.B. Unfortunately the closed/hidden bidding also does not allow for the option of the bidder/buyer buying only the module for installion by the buyer into their own module case, nor does it contain prices for downloading 4K ROM image into the module for people like myself which do not yet have a computer with a hard drive for ROM image storage. I have been hopeing for the release of both the CloniX module and the MLDL2000 since my german MLDL took a dump. I also was hopeing to stop the ebay watching and paying collector prices for items I wanted to use - not just say I owned. The current limited availability and unknown price of the CloniX module has dampened my enthusiism for acquiring one within 6 months. I personally would not have ever expected that I would be able to acquire financial compensation for a hobby project that I did for personal enjoyment, such as my solar powered soil moisture monitor. I would have preferred an open request for orders so that a quantity could be produced, with the price fixed at cost + test + 2-5% loss + personal time for order fulfilment, with 4K ROM image download and shipping prices extra. This is how other 'club' projects were distributed to the people. Otherwise, it becomes no different than a hard-to-find HP-41 item you find on ebay. I hope that the MLDL2000 is not handled this way. I will keep my eyes open on this site for future posting of a quantity purchase with a fixed price, as I need at least one CloniX module with the 'David Assembler' and 'ROM Labels', and would like to have several blank ones for future projects. This is a wonderful advance for HP-41 users and a very desirable item - it would be a shame if it became just another rare ebay item. Don


#8

Hi Donald,

A few minutes ago I've answered the "high bidder" of my FSBO ad. and we have decided to close our deal. I must say that I'm very happy to know that my first Clonix sale goes to his hands.

So this issue is finished and now the price list is ready. As a matter of fact, I'll publish said fixed pricing list (ranging from 100 - 150 Euro, and module rebate options) in my next (FS) ad. as soon as I turn back from Xmas holiday, so there will be no doubt of what you are going to pay for what. BTW I had never ask a penny (and will never do) for .ROM image burning service. I do test every Clonix individually, and have to burn its Flash ROM, so I ask the user which modules to burn, and use them for testing.

Regarding the "rarity", it's almost completely out of my control, as it only depends on the module shells availability. Anyhow and during the last few weeks I have been in contact with some other 41'ers and, as usual, the cooperative spirit is working fine, so, several deals Clonix <-> modules and/or other items had been reached. Yesterday I received 5, and by now at least 4 (hopefully 8) modules are flying to the Canaries, and I hope they won't stay here too long :-)

My best wishes of a Merry Xmas.

Diego.


#9

That is outstanding. I'll check this forum frequently for your notice of pricing and availability. I'll most likely make the module installation in the case myself if this option is available - otherwise I'll supply the modules for your installation if not. It would be very helpful if you would also provide some instruction on how payment is sent in euros. My prior experience attempting to get US$ converted and sent to a european country was a failure. The process is designed for large corporate transfers, and is excessive in cost. I was finally able to get the seller to obtain a PayPal account. Transfer went quick and inexpensively. I'm very glad that this CloniX module is finally going to be available. Don


#10

Hi Don,

You've certainly pointed out a relevant question regarding international funds tranfers and currency convertion/exchange. I must admit I'm a perfect newbie about it all.

I do have a PayPal account but it's a personal account not allowing credit-card transfers. Have to check with PayPal to see if they can handle a Spanish bank account. Sending cash into a registered envelope is always possible but it looks too risky.

Let's dig a bit into that, and ask for some more expert advice in this forum.

Thanks and best wishes.

Diego.


#11

My only successful prior international PayPal funds transfer was to Christof Klug in Germany. I made payment as a bank account transfer of US$ to PayPal with payment in Euros to Christof. The transfer at my end was just that easy. Here in the USA I can transfer any money in my PayPal account directly back into my bank account. You will have to ask Christof if he was also able to transfer the money directly into his bank account. Like I said before, this was very easy and inexpensive. Check it out with Christof and PayPal. Don

#12

I recently changed my PayPal account from personal to the type that can be used to receive payments. It's a convenient way to deal with the international wires, and adds no more fees than any other system, probably much less.

You can connect it to any bank account, or even leave it "disconnected", so the money stays available for your eBay payments...

Best,
ÁM.


#13

Hi Ángel,

Thanks for your hint, I hope PayPal can manage to deal with a Spanish bank account, I also agree it should be the best solution for foreing currency payments.

My Season's Greetings for tou and your family.

Diego.


#14

Do a yahoo search on "paypal" and "warning".

There have been times, it seems, where paypal has frozen $$ in people's accounts with little recourse available.

Also, someone who receives goods and pays through paypal can tell paypal "This isn't what I bought" and get a refund. Dishonest buyers seem to have an edge with it.

None of this has ever happened to me, but if you look at the search returns, it might be worth reading.

12345 to delete.
Gene


#15

Hi Gene,

Your warning is welcomed, I'll take my time to balance pros and cons...

Thanks and kind regards.

Diego.


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