Palm KK-12C Updated for 320x480 (T3 etc)



#23

KK Technologies has released an update for their HP-12C simulator, the KK-12C. The update now allows you to see the entire 12C keyboard on devices which display 320x480, like the Palm Tungsten|T3.

Very cool. Unfortunately, there's no 15C equivalent for Palm :-(


#24

neat. i like the lanscape mode. at last you can fit the
whole keyboard on screen. its a bit silly when you cant do this.

however, it doesnt get the right answers. compared to the 12c.
consider the tvm problem proposed by william kahan,

n = 31536000 = 60*60*24*365
i = 10%/N
pv = 0
pmt = -0.01
fv = ?

fv = 331,667.0067 but not here (331,667.0132).


#25

Interesting.

I just wish I were rich enough that this would make a difference to me.

Edited: 9 Dec 2003, 2:30 a.m.

#26

Lygea' wonderful simulator for pocketPC (Pocket12C) gives the correct answer in no time :) The simulator is beautifully painted, features the (useless, IMHO) ALG mode, but also a normal distribution function (which allows you to implement the black shole equation - this is given in the example). It patches major drawbacks of the 12C, such as inserting/deleting steps and alphanumeric display of them (I always thought that the 12C's programming features were quite useless if you have to branch to another part of the program space just to insert new steps...)

Lygea also has a wonderful 15C simulator, which behaves exactly like the 15C, except that it has more memory, light speed, and that the program steps can be viewed in alphanumeric mode. A pure delight...

So, for Voyagers, I would definitely recommand PocketPC over Palm. KK-12C is a nice program, but seems to have computation mistakes, and does not have alphanumeric display of steps. On the positive side, it allows loading of programs from a PC. But you could also exchange/beam the status file of Pocket12C...
However, if you want to emulate the 16C, there is only one choice: Palm16C for Palm. Not fantastic, but does the job. Lygea told me that there are working on a Pocket16C, which would be a great thing to have.


If you want to emulate the 48, there are no questions: Power48 for Palm is a wonderful program, fast and accurate, with realistic appearence. You will need at least a high-res 320x320 Palm, but it is much better to have a high-res+ (320x480) Palm - best choices should be the amazing new Sony Clie UX50 or the Palm Tungsten T3 (the program has just been updated to version 1.4 to support these devices).
In comparison, Emu48CE 1.23f for PocketPC is an horrible piece of software - buggy, hugly, and slow.

If you want to emulate the 41 (which is my favourite by far - a stunning machine !) the choice is tough: ev41 for PocketPC has a realistic appearance, which I love very much, allows you to run any ROM, but is quite slow (about the original speed) and does have some display problems sometimes (the 'flying goose' is not moving when running programs, for instance); P41CX for Palm is a much better written program, fast, accurate, with 2-line display and printer emulation, hot-swap of ROM modules, graffiti recognition... but it does not have a reastic appearance, does not allow you to load ROMs besides the ones supported (I miss the AEC ROM, especially). I am using both programs :) The choice depends on what you need.

The big, big lack in emulation for PDAs is the Pionners: especially the 42S, 32SII and 17BII models would be great to have. I would really pay for a pionner emulator on PDAs...

As a summary... there is unfortunately not one single device to emulate everything. I personnaly use 3 PDAs:
- A Palm m500 for a light, long battery life HP-41CX,
- A Sony Clie NX80 for a full-blown HP48,
- A HP Ipaq 1940 for Lygea 12C and 15C simulators, as well as for ev41.

But I am a bit of a geek, I do admit it :)

Cheers,

Vincent


#27

Could you kindly include direct URL's to those programs?

[VPN]


#28

Lygea: http://www.lygea.com (Pocket12C & 15C)
Power48: http://power48.mobilevoodoo.com
Emu48CE: http://web.jet.es/leobueno/emu48.htm
P41CX: http://www.palmgear.com (search for P41CX)
ev41: I can't quote it here... search for it on Google... :)
KK-12C: http://www.kktechnologies.com/kk-12c.html
Palm16C: Again available on Palmgear

Cheers,

Vincent


#29

ev41: I can't quote it here... search for it on Google... :)

I am wondering why it is not possible to make any reference from this site to Warren's site? Could someone explain this?


#30

Quote:
I am wondering why it is not possible to make any reference from this site to Warren's site? Could someone explain this?
Warren and someone else (I don't know who) had a dispute that (apparently) involved threats of legal action. Dave was unable to find a way to address the issue here on the Forum that would satisfy both parties. So he chose to stay out of the issue altogether by not discussing it here and by not allowing any link to Warren's site from this site.
#31

The big, big lack in emulation for PDAs is the Pionners: especially the 42S, 32SII and 17BII models would be great to have. I would really pay for a pionner emulator on PDAs...

As far as I know, all my emulators (HP-41X, HP-42X and HP-71X) are working under Power48 so HP-42X is the only true HP-42S emulator which will (indirectly) work on Palm.

Best regards.


#32

I actually thought that your emulator:
1) Was not sold anymore on your web site,
2) Required port 2 emulation, which is unfortunately not a feature of Power48 (it will come only in version 2.0).

If you could clarify the above, I would be most interested :)

Cheers,

Vincent


#33

I actually thought that your emulator: 1) Was not sold anymore on your web site, 2) Required port 2 emulation, which is unfortunately not a feature of Power48 (it will come only in version 2.0).

It was unavailable for some time for some reasons :-( But it is available again ...

There are EASY (HP-42S with 32K) and LITE (HP-42S with 96K) versions which can work with only one 128K RAM card (either in Slot 1 or 2).

More info on http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com and http://hrastprogrammer.tripod.com/HP42X. If you need additional information you can contact me in private via the link on my homepage ...

Best regards.


#34

I have tried... and it is telling me 'failure - cannot send email' :)
Could you please send me demo versions of both HP42X and HP71X for me to try it first on my Clie NX80C/G with Powe48? If it is fine it will strongly consider buying.

Thanks a lot, best regards,

Vincent


#35

Ah, that tripod issue :-( It seems that the server is out ... I will send you a mail.

#36

Yes, from the sounds of it, Lygea's simulators are pretty nice. Unfortunately, they run on PPC, which I just cannot stomach (personal opinion -- not intended to start a debate).

If Lygea's 16C is really nice, I might just have to hold my nose and buy an old PPC machine on eBay just to run them.

I, too, am quite a geek. Especially when it comes to my favourite tiny computers.

#37

There are 2 options, one for hi-res (320x320) the other for standard (160x160).

The hi-res option (sony clie for example) looks JUST like a 41CX! Best $10 I ever spent.

the only thing I have found is the display character for 1 XTOA does not look like the "little man" as it does on the real 41c. Makes Wickes' hangman program not look as nice. :-(

Power48 is fairly slow on my SJ30 Clie. Wish it ran faster...guess I'll have to buy a faster palm!

#38

Just a quick note:
I've had correspondance with Lygea and they are working on a HP16c simulator. Hopefully it will be out first part of 2004.

#39

Vincent

Actually it is possible to other ROM modules with Charles Lee's p41. Normally I wouldn't mention this because it involves hacking Charles' programs--but since he has release the source code to Warren's site...

With a PC and Hex editor you can alter the table of ROM names in the ROM manager program and substitue the ROM you want. Then with the hex editor grab the header off a similar sized ROM file and patch it onto the ROM you want to use and move that file to the Palm. The ROM manager will load it.

I have been able to get most all the available ROM files to load including a test ROM of my own code. There are a few ROMs which will crash things, notably the HEPAX. This is because the emulator doesn't support RAM in ROM space and I believe only banks 1 and 2 for paging.

What I really like about p41 is its ability to "print" to a notepad file. I really wish that Frank's v41 version for the PocketPC did this on my Axim.


#40

Any way we could get you to consider placing your hacked programs with these ROMS somewhere?

Would be nice to have some other ROMS available, as there are several in his list that I just won't ever use. Well, thought I'd ask.

:-)

Gene

#41

Hi David,

Thanks for the info.
Actually I am in contact with Charles Lee (P41CX's author) and recently I gently added support for AEC ROM for me. He said that eventually he will had the possibility for the user to add any ROM he likes, but that he has no time now.
Frank's V41 allows you more flexibility at the expense of the impressive "hot-swap" behaviour of P41CX. P41CX is overall a better program (faster, with printer emulation, graffiti support, and 2-line display), but I still like V41's realistic appearance...
Cheeers,

Vincent

#42

Here are some comments to this article especially to two points.

First of all, I think realistic appearance isn't such a main topic. I prefer realistic emulation much more than a real look. I use a very old and simple skin for Emu48, small window in general with large keys. It's much more work to make a complete new skin from scratch than to modify a photography.

But now to the emulation I know. You are absolutely right with Emu48CE. It's really a cruel piece of software. I bought my first PDA, a used Jornada 565 (StrongArm 206Mhz) in fall this year and I was very disappointed with the HP48 emulation. This bad behavior, very very slow, no correct restart, other things I don't know, IMHO it's quite unusable on my machine, reflects also the programming inside. Because as maintainer of the Win32 version of Emu48 I follow the project CE now over years. It still base on the first CE porting of Emu48 v1.0 upgraded in steps of v1.10, v1.14 and v1.23 to the current version, always with the old stuff behind with the try to integrate all the bug fixes of the Win32 to the CE version. But I must confess supporting so much different devices (CE2.x, CE3.0, PocketPC 2000, PocketPC 2002, PocketPC 2003) with different CPU's don't make things much easier. Therefore special assembler code makes no sense here.

One word to speed, Power48 is much faster because some parts are written in assembler. This was never a topic for Emu48 Win32. The PC's today are getting faster and faster and my problem was getting emulation slow in some cases. Also emulation speed was getting slower and slower the more accurate the emulation was getting. Emu48 v1.0 is about twice as fast on the same machine than the Emu48 v1.2x or later versions. But I agree, the CPU core emulation on Emu48 based software could be optimized for faster emulation.

Now to the emulation of the Pioneer series. There are two possibilities. You are making a commercial product or you're making it in your free time. I belong to the second group. But there is also a financial aspect. I spend much time into these project and I got not much back. Buying the real calculators to a have a base for emulation (also necessary to get the ROM images) are quite expensive (getting a HP42S below US$ 100 without luck is almost impossible now). Also the development platforms and the target machines must be payed.

I also thought like Robert Hildinger, the author of Power48, to ask for donations to finance this. On the first look PayPal seem to be a good way, so I had a look which dealer in Europe accepts PayPal, sorry I found none. So always order in the US, without native language handbooks?

There are (!) fully working emulator versions (Emu42) for the HP42S running on Win32 and PocketPC 2002 with better emulation quality and additional features over the public beta. But here I must criticize the GPL. Emu42 share about 25% of unmodified code with the original Emu48 v1.0 version written by Sebastien Carlier. I have no chance to publish Emu42 and also protect my investments without complete rewriting the sources. I'm not talking about profit here, I'm talking about the costs I had to do this work.

I spend about 40 hours to implement the "Load/Save Object..." feature for HP42S FOCAL programs inside Emu42, and maybe you also will get onto the point like me, that you want to have something more than a worm thank you.

Extraction of product benchmark:

Emu42 benchmark results using Erik Ehrling's

"Miller-Rabin Primality Test for the HP-42S"

Real HP-42S

ROM REV A: Std clock 1MHz 5m 48s

P4/2.4Ghz/533Mhz / 256MB / Windows 2000 SP4 / Emu42 v0.98-5

ROM REV C: 3s

P(MMX)/200Mhz/66Mhz / 96MB / Windows 98SE / Emu42 v0.98-4

ROM REV A: 43s

ARM SA1110/206Mhz / PocketPC 2002 / Emu42CE v0.11

ROM REV C: 1m 06s


I tried the sell my development time on the Emu42 Win32 sources to HP in spring 2002 (they were interested into a HP17BII emulator at this time) but after all they weren't interested.

After this experience and the experience other people have about honoring there work, I decided to go the only way the GPL allows me. I use the right to use and modify the GPL sources, but don't publish them, so I don't have to publish the modified sources also!

There are many people out there crying for software, but when we are on the point, they have to pay a little fee for it, we never hear from them again. So what will happen when I publish the sources and binaries of Emu42 on my page and ask for a donation? I don't think that I collect US$ 100, but I know from my experiences with Emu48 that I get many many support request by Email having problems to get the ROM image and so on...

About what prices we are talking about? In spring last year I asked for a complete new high range PocketPC PDA with some extras (to start writing emulators for the PDA) which had a value at this time of about 700 EUR (~ US$ 850 now). That's still the price for publishing my sources (and binaries) of the full versions of Emu42.


Some final words to emulation of the low and medium range Pioneer calculators (HP20S, HP32SII). Emulators for Win32 also exist, but they are emulators and ROM images aren't available or can't extracted form an original calculator. To avoid requests for the ROM images they aren't published.

Regards,

Christoph Giesselink

http://privat.swol.de/ChristophGiesselink/


#43

Christoph
Do you know of anyone getting EMU48 working on a PocketPC 2003 PDA? I've tried any number of times but it always closes when trying to load the startup script. I get the license page, the script page then--zap--the program aborts.
David


#44

> Do you know of anyone getting EMU48 working on a PocketPC 2003 PDA?

Sorry as I wrote in my posting I bought a HP Jornada 565 and this is a PocketPC 2002 device (I can't or don't want to afford a PocketPC 2003 device).

When I converted my Emu42 Win32 version to a PocketPC 2002 version I recognized that this isn't a trivial task. For understanding, I used my Emu42 Win32 version as base and made it PocketPC compatible and _not_ made Emu48CE HP42S compatible! There were some bugs in all of my emulators (Emu10, Emu28, Emu32, Emu42, Emu48) which doesn't matter on Win32, but make problems on PocketPC 2002. 2nd ARM machines use a 4 byte alignment, any misalignment will stop the program immediately with an error message (misalignment in PC version at bitmap loading). On 8086 compatible PC's this isn't a problem, the machine is only slower in this case.

I found a posting in comp.sys.hp48 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9eiqpvodu6ne3svaetlah7c9d3rvhv82cb%404ax.com some time ago, there the author claimed, he solved the PocketPC 2003 problem. But IMHO it isn't worth trying Emu48CE, it's so slow.

Regards

Christoph


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