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NCESS Exam - Would you have time to enter the Q's??



#23

I've been following the discussion on the banning of certain calculators by the NCEES . I've never taken the exams in question, but...

Would a person really have time during the test to sit there and enter the actual questions into a calculator? I'm guessing that if he was serious about passing the test, he'd be too busy working out the answers to be entering them into a calculator - to do what with them? Study them later so he could take the test again? Pass them on to other peple? How many of the q's could be entered into a calculator during an exam? You'd have to be a very familar with the text entering capability of the calculator to make it pay off.

Don't they change the exam between tests? And most people would be able to recall a large quantity of Q's from memory anyway. If the only purpose of taking the test is to come away with the exam questions, then 5 or 6 serious cheaters could agree to take the test, each one agreeing to memorize certain groups of questions and then pooling them afterward.

Likewise with the IR port - is there time to actually pass answers by IR from one person to another? This would assume that two people (or more) taking the test were conspiring to cheat and are sitting close enough to one another for the ir port to reliably transmit between them. And they would be depending on no one observing them lining their calculators up at odd angles to make the ir work.

It would seem that random seating selection after arrival or even randoming shuffling of the seating after everone has been seated would be enogh to negate the possiblity of someone depending on the use of the IR port.

I'm assuming that the NCEES has seen people actually doing text entry or IR beaming - otherwise why ban it. But I really wonder how big of a problem is it.

I would have thought the bigger concern would be people storing the answers to test questions in the calculator before arriving at the test site instead of worring about them taking the q's home with them.


#24

I wonder why they ban calculator as an engineer would very likely use a calculator in his/her work.

#25

i've always assumed it was an irrational paranoid fear in the examining world about exam calculator use, or just a ballyhoo deterrent to create the impression of effective anti-cheat methods.


#26

Me, too- I've never heard of anyone being actually accused of using IR during a test, nor of using the text entry to pull exam questions.

Seriously- if they can't be bothered to come up with new and workable questions, what good are these people?

#27

I have been in touch with several of the state boards and the NCEES. None of them seem to have any documented cases of the type of cheating that they are worried about. The actual meeting discussions (according to one of the state board excecutive directors) was over handheld communications devices like PDAs and cell phones. The NCEES took it upon themselves to extend the ban to the list of advanced calculators.

All of the points that you make are valid. The main reason this is being done is to "simplify" the job of the examination proctors. Many of whom are not knowledgeable enough to know if someone is cheating with a calculator. Also, because of the number of exams given each year, the question pool is difficult to update regularly. That is the reason they are so concerned about people stealing questions.

I am working with a number of people to get this stupid decision reversed. If you agree that it is a stupid decision (or even if you don't) the best thing you can do is to send a protest to the NCEES and your local state board. The protest should be calm and logical and have your points listed logically. A copy of your original post would be good.

By the way, I took my examinations in the 1960s and 1970s. My protest is philosophical not personal. <G>

John


#28

After NCEES reposted the policy again I sent them a tongue in cheek message. This got someone there upset enough to write the dean of engineering at my college, who then wrote me. I fired back that as long as I stated my opinion without profanity or threat of violence, it's free speech. At any rate though, I think the Luddites at NCEES are feeling the heat.

J.C. Randerson


#29

This is more about making questions meaningful (e.g., for the 3 x 3 matrix A, find A^-1, or find (A dot (BxC)). Modern calcs have made these exercises pretty much pointless. Same thing with roots of a cubic and a dozen other operations performed in an instant by the HPs or advanced TIs.

I find it curious that none of the permitted machines are capable of matrix or vector algebra, nor will they quickly handle roots and other time consuming but ultimately trivial chores.

The NCEES's problem is also declining numbers of engineers willing to be put through the ringer, an set of exemptions (e.g., industrial, government, or federally controlled) unlikely to disappear, and a flood of non-citizen engineers further diluting the meaning of a PE.

Texas and Florida recently overturned laws banning the use of the term 'engineer' by a broad range of people, and California has proposed to cease recognizing a wide range of engineering specialties as requiring state license.

All this has got the NCEES trying to figure out how to stay relevant and the FE/PE wannabees scrabbling to find calculators designed 15-18 years ago, and long out of production.


#30

Todd posted:

"I find it curious that none of the permitted machines are capable of matrix or vector algebra, nor will they quickly handle roots and other time consuming but
ultimately trivial chores."


If I'm not wrong the HP-15C is permitted, as it does have neither I/O nor alpha capabilities at all, yet it boasts fairly comprehensive matrix and vector operations, root finding and numerical integration, as well as being fully programmable and very small, true shirt-pocket size.

Best regards from V.


#31

Val:

Agree - I expect the HP-11C and 15C to be allowed, though the only explicitly permitted machines per the NCEES are as follows:

"' Texas Instruments: TI-30 series (this includes the TI-30Xa, TI-30X IIB, TI-30X IIS, TI-34 II, TI-36X Solar, and TI-36X II Solar)

Hewlett Packard: HP-9 series (this includes the HP-9g and HP-9s), HP-32s, HP-33s (if available)'"

I used a 15C for a few years prior to moving to an HP-41CX, etc. - I found the matrix operations to be a bit cumbersome, but workable if you have the time.

I assume my K&E Decilog would also be legal, though the technology might be deemed too advanced (no required power supply, simplified interface, etc.)

#32

Hello Todd,


QUOTE:

"Texas and Florida recently overturned laws banning the use of the term 'engineer' by a broad range of people, and California has proposed to cease recognizing a wide range of engineering specialties as requiring state license."


Could you lead me toward info in this regard? I was not aware of these developments!


Regards,


Bill Platt


#33

The Texas law is actually one sunsetting the current 66 year old restriction against anyone using the term engineer in a public setting - anyone. There were competing house and senate bills last time I checked, though I believe the current status is that the legislature will 'sunset' the old law if neither revised statute goes forward.

The Texas law is pretty silly, and can levy a $3000/day fine should I drop a business card in a restaurant fishbowl drawing - simply for either using the title engineer or indicating that I provide engineering services. Pretty funny, considering no state currently offers a PE exam in Aerospace (my degree field) - it would be useless - the FAA Administrator performs as the approving airworthiness authority, making PEs a non-starter.

The Florida issue was a court decision on the use of the term - the law still restricts the use of licensed engineer, PE, etc., but allows 'engineer' to be tacked on to other titles, e.g. software engineer, domestic engineer, sanitation engineer etc.

A silly issue anyway - legislating title instead of actions...while no one resonably expects a radio talkshow host going by "Doctor of Love" to offer medical services, apparently the licensing organizations are convinced that the trash men might be considered approving authority for that next $200M waste water management project.

The CA proposal is just that - Google and make your own interpretation.

#34

I AM SCHEDULED TO TAKE THE PE EXAM NEXT MONTH. MAYBE I'M BEHIND BUT HAVE THEY OUTLAWED THE USED OF THE HP48SX

THANKS


#35

I believe the ban takes place starting in 2004.

I also noticed you are having problems with your ON key. While you can press down lightly just below the screen and then turn on the calculator (this works because that is where the circuitry runs from the on button to the CPU). Still, I suggest you buy another Hp48 so as to not be caught without a good calculator either a few days or even during the exam.

A plain 48G would be cheap and easy to get, if you have any memory or Cards, buy another SX or probably better, a GX. The G series is slightly faster and has the EQ Lib built in sans the periodic table which is a free download if you really want or need it.

From reading your posts (test in a couple of weeks, etc), I strongly encourage you to just buy another 48 first and then fix your present one.

#36

Randy:

Check the FAQ at NCEES website - the ban (if it takes effect) is on the Apr 04 exam, but NCEES claims that they have always had a policy which implicitly 'outlaws' most of the calcs used by engineers and engineering students

In other words, check with your state board to see if they will restrict your use of the HP-48 series.

PPI - the publishers for the Lundeburg books - keeps a fairly current list of individual state policy on their site. Only two states appear to have banned current technology TI, HP, or Casio products - looks like one does not permit graphing calcs.

Given you've probably used the HP-48SX for your entire degree program, I'd raise holy hell if your state elected to go with the Luddite stance for the Oct exam.

#37

NCEES claims that a skilled typist can, with practice, learn to enter text rapidly, even on a non-QWERTY calculator keyboard. It is unlikely that you would be able to do this and still work out the answers to the questions. However, a dedicated professional cheater could, in theory, take the exam solely for the purposes of copying it; it wouldn't matter if he failed.

NCEES doesn't release copies of their old exams. They apparently like to reuse questions, or rework them slightly, between exams. So they don't want their questions to become general knowledge. They apparently believe that cheaters would be able to sell genuine NCEES test questions for major $$.

NCEES acknowledges that the stock HP48 IR port has a very limited range. However, a few years ago, someone on comp.sys.hp48 claimed that you could increase the IR reception range to many feet by simply changing a capacitor or something. This may be a legend; as far as I can tell, no one has ever successfully communicated between HP48s at any significant distance with IR. But NCEES is totally spooked by the claim.

NCEES only cares about what you take *out* of the exam room in your calculator, not what you bring *in*. The PE exam is open book. In fact, companies like Chotkeh.com have historically marketed PE exam software for the HP48.


#38

Have you seen the latest? Digital watches are now banned from the exam room. This is for the October Exam.

NCEES is definately scared. They, of course, brought this on themselves when they went to an all multiple choice exam. This made it easier to grade, but took away the element of "showing your work". I am taking the exam in October (Civil) and appreciate the multiple choice format (I think it is easier), but would be lost if I had to use a non-RPN/RPL calculator.

I started with an 11c in high school and moved to a 15c, 41CX and now a 49G. (Man do I wish I still had my 15c). The 41 went out on me 2 years ago (the only reason I have the 49), but I got desperate and opened it up and fixed the problem. I assume that the 41 is still okay, even for the April exam.

The point is that I have a very difficult time with algebraic entry. I might be able to get the hang of it in 6 months time, but it would be an additional learning curve on top of the pressures of the exam.


#39

wait a minute- the exam is all multiple choice?

I'm a computer guy- whether or not I'm an engineer is more up to HR than anyone else. (the fact that I can debug an ATM connection that's flaky because of poor ground maybe makes me a bit more engineer like than the average CCNE, but it's still up to HR)

But.... *multiple choice*? come on. I've helped trian people in how to get passing grades on multiple choice tests without knowiing the material. If they want the PE to mena something, then the test has to mean something.

(sort of like the relative merit of some CS certs:

an MCSE - low, it's a multiple choice dream.

and a CCIE- requires multiple days in a lab- poeple tend to put a lot of stock in it.


#40

The Engineer-in-Training Exam is 8 hours of multiple-choice questions. The Professional Engineer Exam is typically another 8 hours of multiple-choice questions. Some states have additional requirements; for example, civil engineers in California get another 5 hours of multiple-choice on surveying and seismic issues.

So yes, it is all multiple-choice. However, the problems --unlike those on most multiple-choice tests -- are typically quantitative in nature. In other words, you usually have to perform a calculation and then pick one of four *numerical* choices. For most questions, your answer options will be something like this:

(a) 25 ft-lbs
(b) 37 ft-lbs
(c) 44 ft-lbs
(d) 51 ft-lbs

Classical multiple-choice test strategies are of limited value in this situation, because the answer options have no wording clues that might tip you off. You have to be able to perform the calculation.

Multiple-choice exams are probably a practical necessity given the number of exam takers. In California, you can expect about 3,000 people to take the EIT exam and another 3,000 to take the PE exam. The exams are offered every six months, so that makes some 12,000 engineering exams per year in California alone. Nationwide it may well exceed 100,000 exams per year.

#41

Digital watches were recently banned by the California Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors. This is not the same as the NCEES ban on graphing calculators.

NCEES prepares standardized engineering and surveying licensing exams, which are used throughout the U.S. However, the exams are actually administered by the State engineering boards. Both NCEES and State Boards can establish exam rules as they see fit.

The NCEES graphing calculator ban applies to all jurisdictions that use NCEES exams (which means nationwide). But the digital watch ban only affects California, at least for now. This could change if other state boards or NCEES choose to adopt the California policy.

#42

I don't think you would have that much trouble getting used to the algebraic if you put your RPN calc in the closet for a few months. I grew up with algebraics. I didn't really work with RPN much until a couple of years ago. I bought a 48G+ to perform complex numbers calculations at work, but primarily to use when I took the PE exam. Well here I am now, preparing to take the exam in April, and I am going back to an algebraic. I got used to the RPN pretty quick, but I'm not having much trouble going back. However, I did have to give my 48G+ to a friend who is taking the October exam to use as a backup and also to keep me from switching back and forth. I recently picked up the HP 9S. I know this sounds stupid, but I am throroughly impressed with this little guy. It does complex number calculations (but only when entered in rectangular form). Every key has a second function. Everything is easy to find. I am currently taking a PE exam review course, and so far I haven't needed a more powerful calculator for anything. Some things are actually a little easier to do on it than on my 48G+. I have pretty much decided to go forward with the 9S, and will be purchasing a second one as a backup, for a grand total of less than $30.

#43

i know this sound silly but, whats to stop people writing the questions on bits of paper and hiding them about their person?


#44

A pool of a few thousand questions, randomly generated tests, and some reordering of choices might do the trick. Let Sylvan or Plato administer the test, and use screen emulations of the test-taker's choice of calcs. Nothing in and nothing out - game over.

I'm curious about the def of communications - does an HP-28C communicate if it only transmits short range (18") to a printer? Does an HP-42S communicate (same deal and even less memory/string capability). I noticed the NCEES has "approved" the 32S for use...but who knows with the 32SII, eh?

I guess these guys have never seen a really small video rig. One of our programmers has a significant number of beads, etc. in her hair - could pretty much put a dozen minicams on the exam.

Is it time to pull out my dad's K&E?


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