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HP-12C Platinum's CPU



#13

Hi all:

There's been much speculation here re if HP's going to re-release 'Platinum' versions of other favorite RPN vintage calcs, such as the 15C, etc. Should that happen, I guess the CPU used would be the same as the one in the new HP-12C Platinum, in which case at least that important factor would be Ok, the only things that could then go wrong being the emulation of the old CPU if the ROM code is still available, or the rewriting of the whole ROM if the old code was lost (as in the HP-12CP), with the more than likely introduction of bugs, non-optimal algorithms (not Mr. Kahan's for sure), or even worse, lessened accuracy and unnecessary inefficiency, i.e: slowness.

As for the CPU itself, the HP-12CP CPU is a high-tech 8-bit beastie, which can work at voltages from 2.4 V to 5.5 V, at speeds of up to 1 Mhz, and which admits up to 30 Kb of ROM, 128 bytes SRAM for CPU working space, and 2 Kb SRAM for data. It features 8 I/O ports, LCD controller/driver capable of handling up to 480 dots or equivalent segments, built-in R-oscillator and 32.768 Khz crystal oscillator, 8-bit reloadable timer/counter, NMI controller, and many more goodies. In other words, if appropriately programmed, it can deliver. And as for programming, its 'SDK' (Software Developer's Kit) does include a translator which will accept programs written in 6502 assembler and translate them into its native CPU machine language as long as they are valid 6502 instructions, thus easing even more the task of HP programmers (or those subcontracted by HP, more likely).

Anyway, those of you more hardware-oriented than me will probably know better, but IMHO, it sounds good enough for the heart of a classic calculator, isn't it ? Specially since the 71B's CPU (and even the HP-85's for that matter) ran at 0.6-0.8 Mzh, and they were quite capable machines. I know their CPUs were of a very non-standard, proprietary design, optimized for BCD math with large CPU 'registers' and specialized opcodes, but even so ...

Best regards.


Edited: 29 June 2003, 3:12 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#14

... they actualy "emulate" them the right way, something better than the HP12cP: memory enhancement, original Voyagers' digits shape back ;^) and NO BUGS, please!

Based on specs you showed us (thanks, Valentin; where did you get these?), it is fairly able to hold any Voyager and more powerfull machines. I think a mix of the HP15C and the HP16C with at least 256 registers for matrices (16 × 16 elements) would be more than enough for me, but I know the HP16C's features are too specialized, as mentioned in some posts, and will probably be disregarded.

As for the others, digital designers now have the benefit of higly optimized O.S. and specialized software. I believe that a good design will allow very good results.

If they only could keep HP's layout... I am showing the HP71B to my students and other professionals that work with me. When I mention it's about 16 Y.O. (at least my unit) and that it was designed when I was at the univerity, they express admiration. And it looks as a current design.

Time will tell, HP will show...

Best regards and thank you, Valentin; very good words, indeed. My turn to say: I enjoyed reading.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil


#15

Do you know that 256 16x16 matrices in the 7 bytes "voyager" floating would need nearly 512KBytes?


#16

Hello, Chris;

you let me curious about it. I simply took 16 times 16 (256) times 7 (bytes per register) and thought it would be necessary 1782 bytes, as we have in one HP41 Quad memory module. I know a standard HP42S, 8KRAM, no registers (SIZE 000) can hold a 28 X 28 matrix, leaving 897 bytes free. I did not try to perform any matrix operation, just created it.

Would that 512K be necessary to perform operations?

Thank you.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil


Edited: 29 June 2003, 2:17 p.m.


#17

I interpreted your statement as enough registers for 256 matrices of 16x16 elements. Now I see what you did really mean...

#18

> fairly able to hold any Voyager and more powerful machines.

The downside, at least from what I understand of the specs, is that it might be powerful enough to power a Voyager, but it certainly won't be powerful enough to power a high-end Pioneer; so either HP is also considering a more powerful architecture or we won't ever see a replacement for the more advanced Pioneeers...

Can anyone tell me one thing that I cannot understand - why doesn't HP use something more powerful - for example why not base a new calc on the StrongARM microcontroller (or similar)?

Best regards,
Erik Ehrling (Sweden)


#19

The current 8-bit microcontrollers are highly integrated and very very low on power, expecially at low frequencies. Very important as well is that the price of these 8-bitters is probably well below $5 in the quantities that HP is hoping to sell. I would choose an 8-bitter myself, even for a high-end calculator. There are 8051's running at 50 MHz that cost $3 in quantities. The Motorola HCx08 is in the same ballpark. A StrongArm would allow you to run a proper operating system (PalmOS, Windows, Linux) but we do not need that in a calculator, do we ....?

On the other hand, Texas is using a 32-bit 68000 derivative for its graphing calculators which is more powerful but requires larger batteries.

Meindert


#20

You know something? I don't really care what processors any new HP calcs might use. Frankly, performance of even the oldest programmables is sufficient for the limited uses to which they were put (I've wondered why existing graphics calculators, even the 68000-powered T.I. monsters, are so damn slow, though...).

What I care about are the internal algorithms. The HP of old sweated blood making sure the internal numerical algorithms gave the best accuracy possible, handling difficult edge cases and using intelligent rounding and such. All HPs showed a great deal of "orthogonality"-- operations could be generalized. At its simplest this is illustrated by register arithmetic, but was fully realized in calcs like the 28S, in which "+" would do the right thing no matter what was on the stack (numbers, complex numbers, symbols, matrices, strings, etc.)

I think one of these calcs-- perhaps the 71 or 75-- was the first computer of any type to fully implement the IEEE floating point standard.

After reading about how HP has screwed up the relatively simple and well understood financial algorithms in the 12C Platinum, I'm nervous.


#21

> What I care about are the internal algorithms. The HP of old sweated blood making sure the internal numerical algorithms gave the best accuracy possible, handling difficult edge cases and using intelligent rounding and such.

I totally agree on a good algorithm on a low-performance CPU being preferable to a suboptimal algorithm on a high-performance CPU, but must it necessarily be a forced choice? Can't we have a good algorithms on a high-performance CPU?

I can see two areas that would immediately benefit from good algorithms on a high-performance CPU: 1) Larger numerical problems (larger matrices, higher precision in numerical integration etc.) 2) Symbolics (yes, I am impressed by both Erable on the HP48 and Derive for DOS on the HP200LX but my feeling is that these pieces of software are pushing their respective platforms to their very extremes, I might be wrong but higher performance might actually be a requirement to do much more than these programs do)

Also, one interesting observation about for example the HP-42S is that it only provides restricted access to ML programming and therefore has almost 100% of its program base written in UserRPN. Such a calculator is therefore very suitable for a new CPU platform. (Much more than the HP48 for example, where a majority of the best software is written in ML).

Best regards,
Erik Ehrling (Sweden)


#22

Quote:
I totally agree on a good algorithm on a low-performance CPU being preferable to a suboptimal algorithm on a high-performance CPU, but must it necessarily be a forced choice? Can't we have a good algorithms on a high-performance CPU?

Of course good algorithms on a high performance CPU are preferred!

But putting in a faster CPU is easy and cheap. Hiring people capable of doing numerical work of the calibre that was normal in older HP calcs is not.

#23

Hello Erik, guys;

If you allow me to add a few words to your good words, let me also tell you that I liked them very much. Our point of view over some subjects matches in many aspects.

The "hidden" SysRPL/machine code, at least to the average user (*), allows good and bad consequences. As one of our contributors mentioned it well, when he needs some application that already exists as downloadable library, he simply uses it and does not care much about its source code. In fact, we do it when using internal resources: SIN, SQRT, SOLVE, etc. are internally coded and we use them as well, no further inspection.

In other hand, when those of us who want to go further and find "hidden" secrets claiming to be disclosed, then there's no such well locked secret that human mind cannot reveal. It becomes a matter of honor being able to use them and show how deep one can go into a highly dense O.S.

We, poor mortals, can only dare dreaming of having the chance to follow these guys. I'm one of these who dare dreaming of spare time to delve into RPL and Saturn assembly language secrets. When I believe I'll have a few hours to open the door and look carefully inside, some sort of "life call" rings the bell. The world is ours when we are younger, but when we are aged, there are always guys younger than us to claim its possession. Life cycle, no way out...

Oops! Off topic... keeping track... O.K.!

I believe in widely spread documentation. Maybe I'm wrong, but amongst the best calculators (equipments in general, any brand), the most successful are the best documented ones: TI58/59, HP41, HP71, HP48, TI8x series and others as well. Particularly the HP71 that followed the "open architecture" philosophy since its introduction. I remember it well, anyone I knew that was acquainted to HP "restricted architecture policy" was taken by surprise when knowing HP granted access to the HP71 internals documentation.

That's what I believe would help any portable computing device to be successful: flexible, powerful, user selectable O.S. and related algorithms, CPU with compatible, top performance and available, not restricted documentation.

If IBM PC® is not a good example, I cannot find another one.

Best regards.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

(*)I know there are ways to view the source code, but most users do not even have the time to list SysRPL programs and try to understand it, mostly if they are on their way to master UserRPL.

#24

Just a suggestion, it is trying to DO (as a) NUT


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