The Good Old Day and Bad New Days

[Todd R. Kraemer]

I'm a 36 year mechanical engineer in the automotive industry in Michigan.

This past week, there was the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) World Congress in Detroit, Michigan. My younger brother who is also an automotive engineer (in Germany) traveled to the US on business and we visited at the SAE show. He has a HP-48 but he mentioned that he liked the small but very functional HP-32-SII that I had. Before he returned to Germany, I gave him the calculator and owners manual thinking that I could easily buy a new one later in the week when I would be on the Michigan State University campus. To my surprise, MSU did not have any HP caculators in their student book store. I even drove to Ann Arbor, Michigan (University of Michigan) only to discover that they did not have any small RPN calculators. In disgust, I started my internet search for a replacement for the 32SII I gave away. I was shocked to find that HP has left this market. I am hoping that they will offer something similar to the 32S in the near future....

In my internet search, I discovered this site and forum. This sent my mind back to my initial experiences with HP's and RPN....those were the good 'ol days...

In 1980, my dad had given me an old HP-45 when I started High Shcool - that started my RPN addiction. As the Christmas of 1981 neared I was in the 10th grade and taking Chemistry. My Chemistry teacher had a HP-41 with a card reader that he used for various calculations and experiments - I thought it was the most impressive calculating machine on earth. I convinced my dad to let me pitch in $120 that I had saved to pay for roughly half the cost of a HP-41CV. He drove me to Ulrich's Bookstore in Ann Arbor, Michigan on the University of Michigan campus and we bought a HP-41 for $256.00 as my Christmas gift. I spent the entire Christmas break playing with and programming that wonderful little machine. It server me well through high school, engineering university and into my first engineering job. I only retired the calculator to back-up status in 1989 when I bought a HP-48SX. I fondly remember those days.

Looking back, I learned a lot about programming with the HP41 and that experience set me on my way with PC based programming and that ultimately helped me get hired into my first engineering job...

For me, a lot of my career was built on the knowledge foundation that started with a HP calculator. I would like to see other young students have this same wonderful experience. I hope HP will make this possible.

[Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)]

Hi, Todd;

I second you in your thoughts about HP calculators and RPN addiction. What bothers me is: are younger students being stimulated so they "have" to think the way we used to?

I'm an electrical engineer, I'm 41 Y.O. and I tell you I passed throughout the same neural and "synaptic"-level development. I have nothing, nothing against algebraic notation, but having a second way to work problems over and find the same results creates invisible "neural links" that surely will cause reasoning and math self development. We're engineers, it's necessary having the means to achieve a solution. And having more than one tool is always better.

I used to go through a problem in order to understand its solution so I could develop a program to test all available input data and check its behavior, plot it and study it. But this was in "our" time, with "our" available tools.

I do not belong to the time "slide rules" were used in universities, but I had teachers that were not "dam" pleased with the students that did not use slide rules, instead they prefer those "fancy electronic boxes full of buttons", as one of them used to curse. I was one of his victims...

I always asked myself: "Were they right? Was I wrong?". I defend my point of view for my time, as those teachers defended their own, with their slide rules. They built part of their world with slide rules as we built part of ours with electronic, digital calculators. We knew programmable, RPN tools that were not available at their time. And we complain about the fact that if we had accepted the slide rules instead of embracing electronic calculators, we should then go before the logarithmic tables and keep ourselves there.

I don't know what's about to come, but I expect the "new stuff" worth replacing our calculators for them. We have PC's, laptops, handhelds, palms, and we are now going to "organizers" and PDA's. I have not found my calculator's replacements. And at this very moment I think I do not want to be like my "slide rules dependant" teachers. And it is hard to change. I haven't yet. But I'm waiting for something that's dam pretty good so I accept it for my RPN calculators. But I'll not get rid of them, sorry.

BTW, I have a new-in-blister HP32SII (never opened). E-mail me if you have thoughts about it...

Best regards.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

[Norm]

Hi,
Saw what you were saying about needing to replace
your prior 32Sii. You can still get them on eBay
of course. Not only that, there are still some
new units available. Yes, at ticket-scalper prices.
But if you want a new one, you can get one.
I have a 32Sii new/sealed, and a manual also, but I just got it so you would not like what I paid. analogee@gte.net

[Lars Johansson]

if you still have your old 41 you are
not in any serious trouble :-)

--lars

[Renato]

Todd,
Yours is a perfect post for the "memories" forum.
Best wishes,
Renato

[James Stephens]

Excellent point, Renato. If hp isn't designing and manufacturing calculators, there is always cause for concern. Do note, though, that hp has closed down their calculator division more than once, only to establish a new one. The major product created by ACO was the hp-49g, and its failure was--I imagine--the reason ACO was closed. Look at it this way and I doubt too many members of this forum should see a problem justifying the shut-down of ACO (although I'm still one of the few who like the 49, have never had a problem with the machine itself--no scratches on the screen cover, no problems with the keyboard--but rather with the poor documentation).

When hp announced the hp-49g before it was introduced, experienced observers (not I, btw) noted that this was a departure from the norm. I'll bet we won't see any pre-announcement of new calculators, and am keeping my fingers crossed that hp will get back into the calculator design business.

[Christof]

>> When hp announced the hp-49g before it was introduced, experienced observers (not I, btw) noted that this was a departure from the norm. I'll bet we won't see any pre-announcement of new calculators, and am keeping my fingers crossed that hp will get back into the calculator design business. >>

It won't. Not as long as people like Carly are running the show.

This is the HP that cancelled the alpa to go with the *known DOA* itanium. Because they want to distribute, not manufacture.

This is the HP that prefers to license inkjet tehchnology and stop making printers. Because they want to distribute, not manufacture.

This is the HP that is offering the Kinpo 9g. Because they want to distribute, not manufacture.

it's a shame, but as my friends keep telling me "it's business, this is how it works." (not sure I'm buyin that as an excuse.)

[Wayne Brown]

This is also the HP that decided to discontinue the HP3000, the computer that put HP on the map in the computer business, and is still one of the most reliable systems around. (It's also still profitable for HP.)

Worst of all, this is the HP that threw Walter Hewlett (the son of founder Bill Hewlett) off the Board of Directors. That reason alone is enough for me to do everything I can to cost HP as much business as possible.

[Jeremy]

A few days back, I sent an email to hp expressing my concern for their downgrade in build quality and lack of a scientific RPN calc that wasn't also a behemoth graphing calculator.

They replied and said that they would have a new RPN scientific out by the end of this year. So please don't panic, go to eBay and grab your ankles.

Here was my solution: I went to eBay and consider paying too much just to have one. (on the order of $220) I decided that it's not worth it. On eBay, they are practically GIVING away the hp 48G models. Yes, they're big and clunky, and somewhat slow. Even if you never use the graphing functions, remember that it is a like-new hp RPN calc. for $30-40 with an equation library. That will tide me over until I find out whether the next-generation will be well-built or not.

If you decide you really like the strictly scientific ones, look for models that offer the features you need, but which are not necessarily old enough to be collectible or new enough that people are buying them in a panick. I just lost an auction on a 42s that sold for $95. That's not too far out of whack, IMO.

I hope all my babbline has helped a bit.

-Jeremy

[John K. (US)]

On eBay, they are practically GIVING away the hp 48G models.

Yeah, and the 48G has the oh-so-useful 32KB chip to turn your everyday, garden variety 42S into a beefy 42SV. :^)

[Jeremy]

Since I'm only 26, I love to hear stories like that. It is great when we can put our fingers on the source of our inspiration like that.

The thing that got me started on the electronics engineering/ technician path was when my grandpa taught me to solder at the age of 9. I spent hours in his basement shop building things with old touchtone telephone keypads. In fact, I still remember what my first 'Franken-Project' was: It was shortly after I discovered that each key was a simple switch. I hooked up a battery and made each button activate something different. Some keys activated LEDs, and some activated a little motor or something. Completely useless, but it was like magic to me...

As for the calculators, I've pretty much cut my mathematical teeth on my trusty TI-85. I have to admit that the features are much more intuitive. Still, I like the RPN entry for basic stuff. The argument that RPN is less prone to entry error doesn't apply to an algebraic graphing calculator, since you can see everything you just put in and double check it before you hit 'Enter'.

What I really like about the HPs is the build quality. You can tell they built these things to last. They make everything else look and feel cheap in comparison. It was great that they wouldn't compromise build quality for price and mass distribution. You have to respect that integrity. Sadly, many more people will buy the HP name not knowing that they have sold out.

I don't know if the HP people who are making the decisions are aware of this, but HPs little niche in the market was top quality calculators with RPN, and great build quality. Personally, I think it is much too late for them to compete with TI & Casio on this front. HP will get decimated on this front. (Unless of course, they read this forum, hehehe)

-Jeremy

[Scuba Diver]

Jeremy, I don't know if I agree with you.

You said that it's too late for HP to compete with TI & Casio; I think that in most people's minds, HP still represents quality calculators. The poor quality has only existed in the last 4 years or so; since most people have older calculators, they have no idea that the quality has dropped. HP still has a chance to win over people, however the demand for RPN is dropping. If HP makes a conscious decision to remain in the calculator *manufacturing* and marketing business, then they need to do a few things:

1. Build a wide range of RPN including basic 4-function. This will allow people of all ages to use RPN and get used to RPN. The calculators must also be well designed and a convenient size (note one of my earlier posts; let the engineers do the designing, not the marketers!)

2. Give away a whole whack of these to schools and teachers. If they are given new technology for FREE, then they will adopt it. Of course, we'll need to teach them RPN, but that's a story for another day!

3. Price them appropriately. If teachers tell their students to go out and buy a calculator, they will. It shouldn't be priced through the roof, however it doesn't have to be $12.99 at Wal-mart either.

4. Although this fits more with point 2, they should also have support products, such as something that can allow the screen to be displayed on an overhead, maybe even interactive tutorials, etc...these tools make teaching easy and show that HP is committed to students.

There we go...my 2 cents Canadian. I think that HP can recover, however it requires a clear long-term strategy as well as long-term corporate support. Without either one of these, RPN is sunk.

B.

[bill platt]

It is clear to me that the time has come to start a NEW company to make RPN machines.

Forget about big business--time to fill in a market niche.

When I lost my 11-C on an Airplane in 1996, I went to the store and was happily amazed to find that while my trusty 11-C was gone, the 32Sii was half the price, 15 years later, much more powerful, and totally compatible with the programming of the 11-C.

The fact that it was $70 and not $12 just did not matter. I would have happily spent $100 for the quality.

I know I am not alone. When I discovered the hpmuseum, hpcalc.org, this forum, etc, I realized that there is a critical mass...

Just as there are "super-premium" ice creams, "super-yachts", and "super-cars", there certainly can be "super-calcs".

Let's DO IT--Build a new company! Any players?

[Paul Brogger]

This challenge has been brought up before -- search creatively in the Forum Archives and you'll find some of the concerns, hopes, fears, dreams, etc. that have surrounded the topic in the past. Some of the "how-to" technological aspects have been introduced by apparently knowlegeable and experienced folk. It all seems worth ferreting out, should one be considering this option.

One important issue relating to this is whether and how many patents HP may own relating to RPN and its implementation in calculating devices (or whatever). Can anyone shed any informal light on what the status may be of HP's body of patent protection in this area?

Quite apart from deciding whether to build competitive products, such information may help make sense of HP's actions of late. Might, for example, the imminent expiration of certain key patents have figured in decisions relating to the calculator product line?

[Frank Travis]

See website www.calcinfo.com. It has HP, TI, and other calculator patent information

[Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)]

Hi, Frank.

Thank you! This is a very important reference. I'm downloading the papers soon.

Best regards.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

[Vieira, Luiz C. (Brazil)]

Hello, Paul;

let me freshen my memory up: was it you the one making experiences with an HP42S keyboard automatic input? If not, do you remember?

That thread was closer to others related to experiences, and I was one that called for a new design and brand. Names that come to my mind are Vassilis Prevelakis, Renato (Brazil), Tony Duel (not explicitly as a designer, more for hios concerns over the existing hardware), J.F. Garnier and others (unfortunately about 90% of my e-box contents was lost a few weeks ago, and I lost precious e-mails and e-addresses).

If it was not you, forgive-me. I'll try to dig the archieves and find something. For sure the threads are located after Archieve 6 (2001, last months).

What do you think? Light up the fading fire? There are new, powerfull and unexpensive controllers that can make th trick and run a complete O.S. for calculators. KINPO designers already know about it...

Best regards.

Luiz C. Vieira - Brazil

[Paul Brogger]

Luiz:

Yes -- I experimented a bit with a Pioneer (17Bii) and found that, indeed, it should be possible to simulate keystrokes using (to my primitive notion) magnetic relays. The old Pioneer case and circuit board with a 17-line ribbon cable attached at various points is still in my electronics box.

Tony Duell sort of took over -- he wanted to use some more sophisticated electronics to effect the switching. It ended upon his "back burner" at last report, and I haven't heard anything since.

As a side effect of that investigation, if I remember right, Tony found that the second set of IC pads on the -42s circuit board is for an alternate PROM. The internal ROM could be disabled by tying a certain pin high or low, and the external ROM would be utilized instead. This promising development implied, for example, that one might be able to convert a 17BII circuit board to a 42s with a bit of electonics work.

But, I haven't heard anything for a long while -- maybe Tony will chime in?

I must say, as long as the HP-48 series is readily available, it's kind of overkill to go to extreme lengths to re-make other RPN models. True, the -42s size and 4-level stack are nice, but it's not like the -48 is absolutely unusable . . .

Also, I've chimed in on this topic in another way . . . If someone wants to make an RPN calculator, take a look at the TI-83 and -89. These are in many ways general-purpose computer platforms, with industry standard CPU's (Z-80 and M68000, respectively), assembly language development tools, emulators, computer links, web sites, discussion boards, and (really) tons of documentation -- with all but the calculator absolutely free. . . . and the devices themselves are really not at all bad pieces of equipment!

I wrote a simple four-level RPN program in "TI-Basic" to try interface ideas -- X, Y, Z, T & Last X on the screen, simultaneously represented in both decimal and hex ('cause that's what interests me most), and with most of the typical math functions (not %!) executed when the appropriate key is pressed.

It's too slow and unresponsive to use regularly, but given what how that went, I'm sure something more satisfying could be implemented in assembler. But that's where it stands -- I haven't touched the thing in months, and haven't yet come up to speed on the assembly end of things. (In fact, when I get right down to it, my working 32S is all I need, and there are more important things . . . )

So, I'm sounding shrill and repetitive, but those of you wanting to customize your own RPN device should take a look at the current TI offerings.

[James M. Prange (Michigan)]

Eric Smith has an "HP Calculator Patents" page at http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/hpcalc/patents/. I can't be sure that his list is complete, but of those that he has listed, it looks to me as if the one dealing with unit objects is the only one still in effect.

Regards,
James

[Paul Brogger]

Did I dream this, or is it true that patents may be renewed once for another 17-year period?

(I suppose I could look or an anwer on the Web . . . )

(Well, I guess I actually am, but I'm doing it the lazy way!)

[Michael F. Coyle]

I Am Not A Lawyer, but...

No, U.S. patents are non-renewable. Perhaps you're thinking of copyrights, which I think can be renewed once.

BTW, the duration of patents has changed. It used to be 17 years from when the patent was issued. It is now 20 years from the patent was applied for. (I.e. the clock now starts earlier.)

- Michael

[David Smith]

Any patents on the basic RPN system would have expired 17 years after the 9100 was released in (?) 1968... if it was even patentable then. The basic technique was known several hundred years prior.

[Bill Wiese]

The set patents on our beloved RPN version - the 4-level XYZT stack with T-copy-down and a LastX register - would've started counting down from early/mid-70s, not with the advent of the 9100 a few years earlier.

In any case, there's no issue NOW with RPN calcs. In fact, even in the 1970s there were other brands of RPN calcs that apparently weren't infringing: Omron, APF and Nat'l Semiconductor/Novus all built some RPN scientific calcs. These calcs did differ from HP though as (IIRC) they may not have had 4-level stacks OR a T-copy-down feature OR LastX.

I'm not sure about the (purportedly improved) RPL stuff that's on the 48. But they couldn't pay me to use one a 48 anyway! I'm a 4-level stack dude myself.

The only thing you'd wanna watch for in making a new RPN calc - let's say we started the Heward-Packett co to make good calcs - is to not violate HPs' current 'trade dress'. That is, don't make a calc that looks like a current HP calc: both the 12C and 20S/32SII are still 'current' representatives
of Voyager and Pioneer series.

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA