How to copy files from 9114B to hard drive via PIL-box?



#10

Ok, my PIL-box arrived from J-F, and I've been having fun revisiting ancient programs and documents on the archived swap disks!

But... I still can't figure out how to do one simple task: copy files intact (not as LIF images; just the contents) from a real HP 9114B floppy drive on the loop, to my laptop's hard drive.

I can copy files from the real 9114B to ILPer's emulated drive, but that creates a LIF image. How do I copy files directly from 9114 to hard drive? (N.B. I can't use Tony Duell's awesome LIF utilities; they don't run on Windows, and that's all I have).

Sorry if the answer is obvious. I've tried really hard for days, and can't figure it out. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer!

-Joe- (having a blast re-learning the HP-41 and HP-71B)


#11

Hi Joe,

If your need is to have text or source files on your PC for viewing/editing/archiving, then my solution is just to PLIST (with the HP-71B) or PRP (HP-41C) to the ILPer display window, then cut&paste the content.

J-F

Edited: 11 Dec 2013, 1:01 p.m.


#12

Quote:
If your need is to have text or source files on your PC for viewing/editing/archiving, then my solution is just to PLIST (with the HP-71B) or PRP (HP-41C) to the ILPer display window, then cut&paste the content.
Thanks J-F (your PIL-box is great!), but that doesn't work for non-listable files, e.g. lexfiles. Those are the ones that I need to copy.

#13

May I ask you why you need to have LEX as individual files on PC? You don't have to do that to load them on your HP-71B or in emulators.

Well, I HAVE a solution... but not so obvious. My solution is to load the LEX into my emu71 emulator ( the "old" emu71/DOS version) from the LIF image file and then to COPY the file to the virtual DOSLINK device. The file will be stored in a "emu_out.dat" file on your PC.

Restriction: Emu71/DOS - a 16-bit application - doesn't run on 64-bit windows systems, in that case you need to use a virtual environment, like DOSBox or VirtualBox.

I said it was not obvious...

J-F


#14

Thanks, J-F! That's perfect for me; I use 32-bit Win 7. As for why I need to copy them... it's only so that I can add them to the huge already-existing archive of binaries here: ftp://ftp.hpmuseum.org/hpswap/. Note that the files there (including lexfiles) are pure binaries, not LIF files. The LIF versions are in a different archive: ftp://ftp.hpmuseum.org/lif/swap/. The PIL-box makes creating LIF versions easy, of course.

-Joe-


#15

Hi Joe,

I recently repaired a 9114A and am experiencing much the same as you. You may be interested in knowing that you can create 630K LIF images, like the files in ftp://ftp.hpmuseum.org/hpswap/, without Tony Duell's Linux utilities using a PC with a floppy drive and FDIO from the HP 9845 Project website. I've also had success in creating floppies from the images, using the PC, that can be read by the 9114.

Dave


#16

Alternative: The ILPer program emulates a 9114 disk drive, and lets you create (and read and write to) LIF disk images directly on your Windows computer's hard drive.


#17

Hi Joe,

Fdio creates LIF image files, for use with ILPer, from physical LIF diskettes, using a Windows PC with a floppy drive. My understanding is that you have a pile of LIF floppies, so if you have access to a PC with a floppy drive you can create images in a snap.

Dave

#18

Hello Joe,
did I get that right? You are about to add new lex files to the forum archive ... hpswap? I thought that archive reflects the state of some twenty years ago, I would never have assumed that anyone would add new lex files. Of course I am very curious about your contributions; is there a chance that you can mark the novelties, so that they can easily be identified? For example, can you create a new folder like "Joe Horn 2013" ? That would be great!


#19

Quote:
Hello Joe,
did I get that right? You are about to add new lex files to the forum archive ... hpswap? I thought that archive reflects the state of some twenty years ago, I would never have assumed that anyone would add new lex files.
Sorry, no... I was unclear. I'm not going to change the contents of the swapdisks themselves! You are absolutely right that they are unchangeable (by common understanding, not by technology). Gotta respect the monumental amount of work that Mike Markov (and others) put into them!

Quote:
Of course I am very curious about your contributions; is there a chance that you can mark the novelties, so that they can easily be identified? For example, can you create a new folder like "Joe Horn 2013" ? That would be great!
Actually, my intention was to build a collection on my own website's HP-71 section, using web features to enable access to individual lexfiles, with a brief description of each, and complete documentation, and source code, and hex dump, and author credit, and so on... all searchable and available at a click, instead of hidden away in an unsearchable archive with only a filename hinting as to its purpose.

As I'm plowing through the swapdisks, I'm also rediscovering lots of tremendous BASIC programs, and a few BIN programs too. And of course lots of LIF1/TEXT files full of goodies. I'd like to add those to my HP-71 website too, so that people looking for (say) tape/disc catalog printing programs can find them easily instead of wondering "Gee, what was the name of that cool tape catalog printing program by what's-his-name?"

However, I do like you idea of marking the "novelties". Any stuff that I find on my own LIF disks which I can't find on the swapdisks will be marked as such. If enough are found, a separate list of "novelties" can also be created. The rest will have pointers to the respective swapdisks they're on, with version differences noted if I can figure them out.

On the other hand, creating a *NEW* "swapdisk" feels ... somehow ... WRONG to me. Kinda like creating a new EduCALC Goodies Disk. Or a new Dead Sea Scroll. Or a new Shakespeare play. Or... well, you know what I mean.

-Joe-
The Eleventh Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Get Caught.


#20

Hi Joe,

While I applaud your mission to make available your "boxes & boxes & boxes" of lif disks. I tend to agree with J-F regarding the desire to copy individual files from lif to the PC. I find it more convenient to use ILPer and the PIL-Box to copy files directly into the 71 from lif images.
In addition, I'm volunteering to assist you in your effort. I have a 9114, PIL-Box, and a HP-IL board for the PC so I can copy files and images every which way. Also, I live in San Diego so getting a box of disks from you wouldn't be that difficult.

Dave


#21

Thanks, Dave! Yeah, maybe I'll stick with LIF images for now. Much easier.

BTW, does ILPer also work with the HP-IL board for the PC, or only with the PIL-box?

-Joe-


#22

Quote:
BTW, does ILPer also work with the HP-IL board for the PC, or only with the PIL-box?

Unfortunately not. JFG designed ILPer as single endpoint for his PilBox hardware. At my Emu71/Win development time I needed a mass storage device, so the idea was born to reuse ILPer for this purpose. Therefore I had to replace the HP-IL cables for the internal connection between virtual devices. Virtual HP-IL was born. The first software knowing this protocol was ILPilbox. All software on this page is published under the GPL2 so I should be quite easy to write a bridge software like ILPilbox using the HP-IL board for the intercommunication between virtual and real HP-IL.

I have no PC with ISA slot in use any more. So it was never an option for me to buy a HP-IL board and write software for it. Especially not in these times of modern OS, not allowing the hardare access from user mode programms without special drivers. And these special drivers must have a certificate, you also have to pay for, on the most used OS platform...

Christoph


#23

It is actually possible to install unsigned drivers on Windows, although if the OS is 64-bit, you end up having to put Windows into Test Mode to do it.

Edited: 15 Dec 2013, 6:05 p.m.

#24

Hi Joe,

If you have an HP-IL board for the PC you can use emu71/DOS which will allow you to access LIF archives just like ILPer. I've found this works fine on a 450 MHz Windows 98 machine.
I've also been successful running the old HP Link, HPIL Link, and Link Plus programs on the same machine. :)

Dave


#25

Quote:
If you have an HP-IL board for the PC ...
Nope, just a PIL-box, but that's keeping me happily busy for now. The last time I heard two 71B's playing a Two-Part Invention by Bach in stereo was 25 years ago! It's such a delight to hear it again! Life is good.

-Joe-

#26

Hi Joe,
I highly appreciate your plans; in contrast to the well documented HP41 software pool, most of the HP71 programs and lex files are undocumented and/or hard to find.

Do you know the HPDIR-project?
With the free "total commander", a tool similar to the windows explorer, and the HPDIR plugins for that tool, you can easily extract single files from a LIF-disk to the windows file system, or the other way round: you can append files to a LIF disk, all in a very convenient and intuitive way.

See here: HPDIR


#27

Quote:
Do you know the HPDIR-project?
I didn't, but I do now! Looks awesome, especially its ability to work directly with binary images. Many thanks!

-Joe-

#28

Michael,

I've experimented with HPDIR and performed a file comparison between files extracted from the lif images in HPSWAP and the files in LIF/SWAP which were copied using HPIL Link and an HP-IL board. There are differences to be aware of that have to do with the LIF Directory Entry and whether or not it gets prepended to the data portion of the file. See Dan McDonald's excellent article, HP-IL Files: Where, What, Why, How, etc.
HPDIR was written for the HP9845 and HP test equipment that used floppies back in the day. It doesn't recognize the 41/71/75 file types and the extracted files have the hex file type for the extracted file name extension. Copying these files back to the 71 requires the use of LIFUTIL and the reconstruction of the LIF Directory Entry. If anyone can provide the syntax necessary to copy files to/from LIF images I'd be interested.
In addition to HPDIR, FDIO can also be found on the HP 9845 Project website. This Windows program will copy LIF images to/from a PC floppy drive using the LIF format.

Dave


#29

Hello Dave,
I admit that it is a pity that HPDIR doesn't recognize common HP calculator file types ( due to the fact that it is aimed at the HP 9845 system ); instead of "HP 75 BAS" it shows #e088, the hexcode (I guess) for that file type. Perhaps someone should give a list containing all known HP calculator file types to the creator of HPDIR; it should be quite easy for him to implement that translation of hexcode to meaningful text.
But the transfer of single files in and out of a LIF container (= virtual LIF disk) is quite easy (I use HPDIR from TotalCommander with HPDIR plugins) . The extracted file doesn't contain the LIF Header, it is the "pure" file. You can insert these files in another LIF container (f.e. in an empty one ) using HPDIR, thus creating the desired virtual LIF disk for your (physical or emulated ) HP 71.
Of course you could also use JF Garnier's tool "aLIFhdr" ( you find it on Jeff's website in the chapter JPC ROM ) to create the 32 bytes LIF Hdr for the pure file. The result is a virtual LIF disk that contains just this only file.
But maybe I misunderstood what your problem was exactly?


#30

Hi Michael,

No problem. I was just reporting my experience with hpdir and how the extracted files weren't the same format as the files in LIF/SWAP. That archive's files were exported using HP-IL Link and the method of copying those back into the 71 without an HP-IL card are documented in HP-IL Files: Where, What, Why, How, etc. Since the Museum's archives are in either this or LIF format I didn't see the need to use a third format. And, since all the files in LIF/SWAP (and more) are also in HPSWAP in LIF format, all the files in the archive can be accessed using ILPer.
I'll have to check out J-F's tool. There was supposed to be a Excel spreadsheet that did the same thing, but I can't find it.

Dave

#31

Will the "Theology LEX" with the CREATE ALL keyword be part of your additions? :-)

(mentionned in the famous "HP-71 Basic Made Easy" book)

J-F


#32

Quote:

Will the "Theology LEX" with the CREATE ALL keyword be part of your additions? :-)

(mentionned in the famous "HP-71 Basic Made Easy" book)

J-F


Yes, but be forewarned that CREATE ALL always generates an error, because ALL already exists. It would theoretically be possible to use CREATE ALL after an execution of END ALL, but that use is not supported because after briefly displaying "ALL LOST" it voids everything, including itself and the warranty.

#33

:-)


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