Correct me if I am wrong



#53

I am thinking that rpl language will die with the near
discontinuation ( I think )of the hp50g.
Also that the hp prime language and os is the future for hp

Denis


#54

Hopefully!


#55

I second the hopefully. RPL is not so bad but it's a bit unpratical compared to other procedural languages.

Even if i want to squeeze every possibility from my hp50g.


#56

IMO UserRPL doesn't suit small displays well as listing can become quickly unreadable. In addition, the ommision of break and continue statements long after their value have clearly shown in other languages cannot be understood, especially on the 50g.

As much as I like the 48 series (actually, I find them near perfect for manual operations), the programming language is a *nightmare*.


#57

I disagree - I think RPL is a brilliant language.

It shows its firm roots in languages like Lisp and FORTH and is a very natural fit for a stack oriented environment.

If you use a lot of programming languages, you gain an appreciation for elegance, simplicity and orthogonality and RPL has admirable quantities of all of these, considering the compromises that must be made to support a calculator environment, a CAS system and limited memory.


#58

It's probably a matter of taste. I often found myself writing some additional lines as a workaround for the missing BREAK/CONT statements. And the FOR syntax is quite strange. From a technical point of view I understand why the variable stands behind FOR, but it looks odd, takes time to get used to it and is easy forgotten.

Sometimes I get into a language and are immediately familiar with it. In my eyes, these are elegant languages. Java/Swing is a good example as well as PHP. OTOH, XSLT, SQL, VisualBASIC e.g. just drive me mad and it takes a book on that language on the shelf if I use them only now and then. UserRPL belongs to the latter group. The logic behind those languages are somehow not compatible with my mind ;-).

#59

Well the 'Prime language' looks a lot to me like Pascal, and XCas is written by a French man, so Pascal will be around a bit longer.

And RPN programming is still around, and very popular in this forum, and made a slight comeback when the 35s hit the streets.

So, hopefully RPL will be around as long as HP 28s, 48s, 49s, and 50s continue to power up. And who knows, maybe after the Prime has been around awhile another RPL machine will be released.

I think RPL is an amazing language and the 50g (and others) allows UserRPL & SysRPL (& Assembly) all on a single handheld platform. I would hate to see it die!

Best regards,

PG


#60

In my opinion, RPL is not only a language but a complete operating system.

It's just incredible for me that a so coherent and polyvalent calculator was created. I would love an RPL2 calculator, but no hope that it comes from HP because there is no a big market for that. I've the (perhaps I'm wrong) idea that this could be a reality in the future because a RPL kernel is perhaps not so hard to realise (and could be expandable, like forth... So why not an RPL2/SysRPL2 (OS + language) kernel in native ARM code (or C, or mix of the 2 ) ? What about the hardware?.. Hummm but there will be an existing hardware in few weeks ;)

Imagine such a calc with RPL2 (an renewed RPL), SYSRPL2 and ARM !

What change for RPL2 ? easier local variables, correct some anomalies ( + ADD), more powerfull list processing (look on the side of Haskel / Gofer) , easy ARM integration, library systems, user objects extension facilities (with operator overloading...) etc

The idea is not to be compatible with old RPL system but to create a new paradigm on these old basis (keep the good ones , change the not so good). First must be a global reflexion on this for a really expendable, polyvalent, logic and coherent system

The heart is for me an expandable and strongly typed system which manipulates all kinds of objects (and knows nothing else than objects), and can mix them in a smart way in RPN mode. And of course the EVAL logic of RPL.

Edited: 11 Aug 2013, 5:44 p.m.

#61

(new) Re: Correct me if I am wrong
Message #4 Posted by Pal G. on 11 Aug 2013, 4:38 p.m., Report post,
in response to message #1 by Denis Doyon

Well the 'Prime language' looks a lot to me like Pascal, and XCas is written by a French man, so Pascal will be around a bit longer.

And RPN programming is still around, and very popular in this forum, and made a slight comeback when the 35s hit the streets.

So, hopefully RPL will be around as long as HP 28s, 48s, 49s, and 50s continue to power up. And who knows, maybe after the Prime has been around awhile another RPL machine will be released.

I think RPL is an amazing language and the 50g (and others) allows UserRPL & SysRPL (& Assembly) all on a single handheld platform. I would hate to see it die!

Best regards,

PG


I think also that RPL is an amazing language but I'm afraid
that hewlett-packard will drop it in a near future.

#62

Quote:
Well the 'Prime language' looks a lot to me like Pascal

I'd say it's more like Modula-2 which of course has the same father, Niklaus Wirth. However, comments start like in C++. It's quite a mix but in my opinion it's one of the best programming languages I've ever seen for pocket calculators!


#63

@Juergen

I agree with you. Others points :

1/The language is very easy to use, to understand, good debugger, lot of commands

2/ The programs are small (Bytes)

3/ For a pocket, I find the language a little verbose even with the templates. So it's not fast to write a program directly on the calc. Perhaps a matter of habit with templates

4/ It's very fast and specially the graph commands

Here an example (need a real hardware)


EXPORT Defender() 
BEGIN
LOCAL xv:=10,yv:=20;
DIMGROB_P(G1,640, 48);
DIMGROB_P(G2,320,240);
Y:=32;

FOR X:=0 TO 640 DO
Y:=MIN(MAX(Y-1+IP(RANDOM(3)),0),47);
LINE_P(G1,X,48,X,48-Y);
END;

RECT();

FOR X:=0 TO (640-64) DO
xv:=MIN(MAX(xv+5*(ISKEYDOWN(8)-ISKEYDOWN(7)),0),309);
yv:=MAX(yv+5*(ISKEYDOWN(12)-ISKEYDOWN(2)),0);
BLIT_P(G2,0,0,320,240,G1,X,0,X+64,48);
IF GETPIX_P(G2,xv+10,yv+5)==0 THEN BREAK; END;
RECT_P(G2,xv,yv,xv+10,yv+5,0,#20B2AAh);
BLIT_P(G0,G2);
END;

FOR N:=1 TO 100 DO INVERT_P; END;
END;

Video :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x132v9e_defender_tech


#64

Quote:
3/ For a pocket, I find the language a little verbose ...

Yes, that's true. Writing programs is easier and faster on the emulator. The advantage of verbose programs is that they are easier to read and understand. I'm a little biased as I like Modula-2 a lot.

Quote:
4/ It's very fast and specially the graph commands

Thanks for the impressive demo. It looks like the Prime is also a good gaming platform :-)

Do you know if programs are interpreted or pre-compiled on the fly? The fact that the syntax is checked when you leave the program editor might be an indicator for some kind of pre-compilation.


#65

They are compiled down to function calls. This is kept around until a reboot, or the memory is needed.

Basically, the programs consist of source, a header that contains info about exported functions/vars, and the binary.

TW

#66

Forgot to ask:

Quote:
Here an example (need a real hardware)

Why doesn't the program run in the emulator?


#67

Probably just runs too fast...

Add a wait(.16) in the loop or something and might be reasonable.

TW

#68

Quote:
I am thinking that rpl language will die with the near
discontinuation ( I think )of the hp50g.
Also that the hp prime language and os is the future for hp

Denis


It depends on whether the HP decides to update the HP 50g, although it seems unlikely.

#69

[text removed by moderator - please keep this forum polite]


Edited: 12 Aug 2013, 3:04 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#70

For Reth;
I'm not trolling
Please be polite

Denis Doyon

#71

Hello!

Quote:
Apparently this forum has become a target for bored trolls.

Why do you call someone a "bored troll" for telling the truth, Sir? RPL is currently implemented in one single commercially available product and as soon as this product will have been replaced by its RPL-free successor, it can be considered to be dead. A handful of enthusiasts will keep it alive within their small community, but that won't bring it back to the market.


#72

This forum is part of hpmuseum of calculators. Museum means place holdind and displaying things from the past. Calculators are certainly in that cathegory. Every now and then someone comes around and shares their view about the future of those exponates. I think they are at the wrong place, searching for attention. Initiating pointless conversations leading nowhere. That's what I call trolling here.


#73

Quote:
This forum is part of hpmuseum of calculators.

If this would be so, why mention the HP Prime at all? It is certainly not a museum piece, because it is not even on the market yet...

Quote:
... pointless conversations ...

Why pointless? Because you are not interested? I'm not interested in the Hp41 and have never been, yet I would not call discussions about this product pointless (I even follow some of them out of general curiosity). Maybe the starter of this thread just wanted to know if RPL is still in use in some other calculator/laboratory equipment other then the HP 50?


Edited: 12 Aug 2013, 11:20 a.m.


#74

I never mentioned it and never would. As far as I am concerned *this* thing has nothing to do with the great Hewlett Packard series of professional calculators and has no place here, in the museum. HP of today has not produced anything deserving to be mentioned and discussed in this forum in my opinion.

Best regards,

Ps. then you are at the wrong place too, go read general notes up the page.


Edited: 12 Aug 2013, 11:37 a.m.


#75

Quote:
Ps. then you are at the wrong place too, go read general notes up the page.

You mean the ones like: "Users of this site will conduct themselves with responsibility and decorum..." ?

You know what "decorum" means? I just ask because this word belongs to another deceased language just like RPL will be in the near future.


#76

No. I meant:

Quote:
This forum is for discussion of HP calculators including usage, repairs, sources of replacement parts, general information etc.

... and hardly for sharing futuristic visions of selfpronounced gurus.

#77

Quote:
... and hardly for sharing futuristic visions of selfpronounced gurus.

Since it so obviously pains you to to be here, why do you remain to inflict that pain on others who possess the maturity for civil discourse? You must be feeling rather misplaced, having never contributed anything positive. Please...have a nice day.

#78

Quote:

... deceased language just like RPL will be in the near future.


How near? Do you recon you will be around to attend the funeral of RPL? Or you are Nostradamus undercover? :-)

Edited: 12 Aug 2013, 12:20 p.m.


#79

Quote:
Or you are Nostradamus undercover?

It is really not necessary to be clairvoyant for predicting that the HP 50 will be the last RPL calculator. When the production line for HP 50s will be closed, RPL will be history. Just as the Romans are history. The fact that a few clerics are still able to communicate in Latin does not make Latin a living language.

Edited: 12 Aug 2013, 4:50 p.m.


#80

Quote:
When the production line for HP 50s will be closed, RPL will be history. Just as the Romans are history. The fact that a few clerics are still able to communicate in Latin does not make Latin a living language.

Perhaps not vibrant, but still alive. I occasionally drag out my old Collins Pocket Latin Dictionary and practice my schoolboy Latin on online friends (although it's been over 40 years now and my attempts are more embarrassing than illuminating).

But the Internet is extending the life of things like languages because it allows enthusiasts to discover each other and communicate in ways they never could before. That is the basis of the community we have here - the glory days of RPN have, perhaps passed, and we mourn the passing of the great RPN calculators like the 41 and 42, while supporting community-based developments like the WP-34S.

So it is with Latin, and so it is with more obscure languages like Scottish Gaelic, etc. And so it will be with RPL - HP will no longer make RPL calculators but people will still use them for some years to come and will also continue to share RPL-style languages for PC's, tablets, phones, etc.

These days, languages (of all kinds) never die - they just fade away, perhaps exponentially.

Finally, let me endorse your plea for decorum and civility.

Best,

--- Les

[http://www.lesbell.com.au]


#81

In a Frederik Pohl's story, Waiting for the Olympians, the Roman Empire never fell and Latin is still alive. In order to be more convincing, it should have been written in Latin, however :-)

Best regards,

Gerson.

#82

Quote:

Maybe the starter of this thread just wanted to know if RPL is still in use in some other calculator/laboratory equipment other then the HP 50?


There is no maybe in this case. Read again the OP. If he knowes what RPL is than such question is irrelevant. I might be wrong in this particular case, but usually this is the way trolls start topics. Pretending to ask about obvious things and throwing questions like 'chicken or the egg'. I am yet to be proven wrong sniffing such individuals :-)
#83

Reth,

Quote:
I think you think more than you should, therefore you come up with such bla-bla bullshit.

Apparently this forum has become a target for bored trolls.


I'm sorry I forgot mentioning you in my recent post. Won't happen again.

d:-(


#84

I suggest you stop acting as a moderator here. And thank God you're not standup commediant, you'd be starving to death.


#85

Quote:
Apparently this forum has become a target for bored trolls.

Looks like your diagnosis is correct.

d:-/

#86

Quote:
I suggest you stop acting as a moderator here. And thank God you're not standup commediant, you'd be starving to death.

And I suggest you stop being condescending and having a hoiler than thou attitude. It is quite annoying.

#87

The subject of this thread is fine for this forum. Not everyone has to enjoy every thread. If you don't enjoy a thread, please simply ignore it and consider starting threads that do interest you. If a thread is offensive or wildly off-topic, please use the report post link. One post that has been reported multiple times today has been edited.


#88

I don't want anymore to participate to this forum,
please unsuscribe me, and you have lost a long time reader.

Denis Doyon


#89

I thought your question was valid, and useful for discussion. I hope you'll stick around.

"Reth", on the other hand, can leave anytime.


#90

Quote:
I thought your question was valid, and useful for discussion. I hope you'll stick around.

"Reth", on the other hand, can leave anytime.


Agreed. The original post was fine and the thread was going fine until that display of, well, whatever that was.

#91

Quote:
I thought your question was valid, and useful for discussion. I hope you'll stick around.

"Reth", on the other hand, can leave anytime.


I second that - I think your question is very relevant. I hope you stay.

#92

Also, the curator's reprimand was not addressed to Denis, but to someone else. I see no reason for Denis's reaction, except perhaps for some misunderstanding.


#93

Quote:
Also, the curator's reprimand was not addressed to Denis, but to someone else. I see no reason for Denis's reaction, except perhaps for some misunderstanding.


infact the answer of the curator was to Denis, author of the topic, but obviously directed not to him
#94

Denis, your "question" stimulated interesting discussion - please don't let the rudeness of one person drive you away. I think you'll find that the community as a whole welcomes your contribution. Please stay.

Best,

--- Les

[http://www.lesbell.com.au]

#95

If something in the forum is bugging you, please click on Report Post. Today has been an extremely busy day and on such days (which are common) I rely on people clicking the report button. If only one person is bugged by something, I may not react, but multiple reports about the same post usually will get a reaction from me. Today I received several about one post (which is very unusual - there has been only one other reported post in 2013) so I looked at it, agreed with the reports, and removed the text.

#96

The community is done by all users, not by only one. So leave him alone (in other words "don't feed the troll or who think that he is absolutely right about a community convention") and keep replying to interesting contributions ^_^ .

#97

Ciao Denis, don't leave our community, there's absolutely no reason, don't go

#98

Quote:
The subject of this thread is fine for this forum. Not everyone has to enjoy every thread. If you don't enjoy a thread, please simply ignore it and consider starting threads that do interest you. If a thread is offensive or wildly off-topic, please use the report post link. One post that has been reported multiple times today has been edited.

I rest my case.
#99

Just my 2 cents -- RPL was an ingenious and concise solution to the the challenge of generalizing RPN to deal with mathematical objects (e.g., vectors, matrices) of large dimension or having symbolic elements. IMHO, RPL is as valuable an asset of HP calculators as their legendary keypads.

Three desktop languages that trace their origin to RPL are: RPL2; Lang5; and RPLsh -- sometimes desktop languages make their way to calculators (e.g., Derive for TI89 and, if I understand correctly, giac (xcas) for HP Prime). For iOS, ND1 is RPL-related -- (comparison of ND1 and RPL)

I hope RPL, in one form or another, is around for a long time.


Edited: 13 Aug 2013, 7:24 a.m.


Quote:
Just my 2 cents -- RPL was an ingenious and concise solution to the the challenge of generalizing RPN to deal with mathematical objects (e.g., vectors, matrices) of large dimension or having symbolic elements.

Not only are RPL programs small, but the RPL development environment on the calculator is small and fast too. Programs can be converted to and from text very efficiently. I think the "bang for the byte" was a big reason that they created it.

If I won the lottery tomorrow and knew that I was going to live another hundred years, I'd attempt to create "RPL-32" - a 32-bit byte-addressable RPL implementation. Then I'd convince HP to release the source code for one of the early HP 48's and attempt to port it to RPL-32. I'd choose one of the early ones because it's my understanding that they used more RPL and less assembly code.

A 32-bit RPL would be hard to do, mostly because the size of the objects would change. The current RPL implementations use a processor (mostly emulated now) where each address points to a nibble (4 bits) instead of a byte. When data formats change, most of the code changes too.

I even have a name for the new system: PoRPL (pronounced like "purple" but with an "O"). It stands for "portable RPL." Itwould be written in C++ for portability.

One of PoRPL's goals would be to maintain source-code compatibility with User RPL programs that don't rely on the size of objects.

Dave

Recently I compiled RPL/2 on my Raspberry Pi. That's when I stumbled upon the references: companies or institutions using this laguage. I doubt that they will stop using it just because the HP-50g is discontinued. Is that proof enough?

Kind regards

Thomas


I plan to do the same and wondered if you encountered any snags along the way compiling RPL/2 on the Raspberry Pi?

Thanks!


You need internet connectivity for the next steps on the Raspberry Pi. I'm in a network that uses a proxy for this. So you might want to set the environment variable http_proxy accordingly. Some of the commands need root access. For this you will probably use sudo. You can set the proxy for this as well:

sudo http_proxy=http://<proxy>:<port> <command>

My archive was compressed using bzip2:

bunzip2 download/rpl-4.1.14.tar.bz
tar xvf download/rpl-4.1.14.tar
cd rpl-4.1.14
Now read the README and the INSTALL.

To build this projects these three commands are used:

./configure
make
make install
However the last command needs root access so you will run:
sudo make install

The raspbian comes with a decent development environment. However not everything is installed that is needed for this project. Since I didn't start with a fresh installation I might have already installed stuff that is needed but not yet installed on your Pi. Thus you might run into problems even if you install all the things that I did.

I advice you to install command-not-found and apt-file. Both help finding the package you need to install based on commands or files that are missing.

Here's the full list of packages that I installed:

  • gfortran
  • sharutils (uuencode)
  • byacc (yacc)
  • flex
  • libxt-dev (Intrinsic.h)
  • xbitmaps (X11/bitmaps/gray)

You might want to install these in advance. Just keep running the command:

./configure
until you don't encounter any errors. In case of errors try to figure out which package is still missing. Use the tools I recommended or google.

The same applies to make.

It takes some time to build the whole project. So be patient.
If everything is done, you may install it:

sudo make install

HTH

Thomas


Thomas,

Thank you for taking the time to post such detailed instructions and advice! I will certainly use them.

Best,


Carey


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