Good news for HP-emulator fans! :-)

[fhub]

Hi,

HP has released new versions for (almost all) their emulators on their usual emulator sites:

(only a few older financial emulators like the 12c/10bII/17bII are missing)

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/scientific-calculator-emulator.html

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/graphic-calculator-emulators.html

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/finance-calculator-emulators.html

And the good news: these new emulator versions don't need an activation code anymore! :-)

Thanks to HP (and also to Tim Wessman, because I guess it was he who convinced HP to remove this activation code) for making these emulators available.

Franz

[Valentin Albillo]

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HP has released new versions for (almost all) their emulators on their usual emulator sites:

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Thanks, Franz, much appreciated.

Best regards from V.

[Walter B]

Thanks for sharing!

d:-)

[Tim Wessman]

Nope. It was not me. :-)

TW

[fhub]

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Nope. It was not me. :-)

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Ok, I just thought so.

But there's really something strange going on with these HP-sites:

At the moment when I open any of these 3 websites I'm getting the old pages again (with links for the old emulators with activation code) - it seems HP has changed their mind again and reverted back to the old emulators!?

Edit: Now a few hours later the new (unprotected) emulators are up again - crazy HP ... ;-)

Franz

Edited: 5 Feb 2013, 1:56 p.m.

[Eddie W. Shore]

Thanks HP! Now I will need to learn how to transfer programs between calculator and emulator.

[Walter B]

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Now I will need to learn how to transfer programs between calculator and emulator.

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Please tell me as soon as you've found out ;-) AFAIK that's possible with a WP 34S and an HP-50G only (maybe also HP-39gii?).

d:-/

[Raymond Del Tondo]

IIRC a direct connection between Emu48 and a real HP 48 is possible, too, and was possible before a 50g even existed. And don't forget Emu41 and Emu71 from JFG, which can be connected to their real counterparts through HP-IL adapters, using either the ISA card, or better these days, the famous PIL Box.

[Walter B]

I stand corrected :-) None of the calculator models contained in HP's emulator package, however, looks like being able to communicate.

d:-)

[Tim Wessman]

39gs, 40gs, 39gII.... guess that is none. :-P

TW

[Walter B]

Come on, that thread was about the 10s, 300+, 15C, 35s on the scientific side :-b

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

Tim, I get a severe Windows XP crash (blue screen with auto reboot) when I try to install the virtual COM port driver coming with these emulators. Any hints?

[Tim Wessman]

Never heard that one before. If anything, I'd expect XP to work fine and newer OSes to have issues.

TW

[Christoph Giesselink]

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I get a severe Windows XP crash (blue screen with auto reboot) when I try to install the virtual COM port driver coming with these emulators.

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Me too.

[Dieter]

Great. I tried the 15C and 35s emulators - and I wonder why they are so different.

• The 15C version uses a nice photograph of "the real thing". The 35s version offers different skins, but the best you can get is a "stylized product rendering", as the menu calls it. Also, the 15C version allows to hide the title bar so that just the calculator is visible. The 35s version always seems to diplay that annoying window frame provided by the operating system.
  
• The 15C version allows to copy numeric results to the clipboard. The 35s version just copies the two display lines to a graphics file. The result itself cannot be copied (and pasted into another application).
  
• The 35s emulator works significantly slower than its 15C counterpart. Try a simple square root. It takes about half a second on the 35s version, while the 15C returns the result instantly. In general, the 35s emulator seems to work roughly as fast as its hardware counterpart or slower (!), while the 15C emulator runs as fast as the PC hardware allows. Or maybe it's the speed of the 15C LE. ;-)
  
• The 35s emulator offers a lot of options in its Tools menu. I could not find any reference on how to use these. The same is true for the "Macro" function as well as others (e.g. what's the difference between Save/Load and Fast Save/Load?). Or do I miss something and all this is documented somewhere?
  
• What about the keyboard mapping? The 35s simply seems to use the letters on (most of) its keys. "Shift" and "Ctrl" seem to map to yellow and blue shift. On the 15C, "Ctrl" works the same way but "Shift" does not work here. And what about all the other keys?
  

Dieter

[Tim Wessman]

Quite simple actually. The 35s is a totally different codebase.

It was done by Kinpo back in the day way before I joined HP. It matches the 12cp and 17bII+ emulators. The skins are DLL files and require compiling. The emulation is done in a dll we don't have the source code for.

It does have the more advanced macroing stuff built in that allows to save and load key sequences, but it has other things missing. No, you are not missing documentation on those things - it has never been prepared.

The 15C was done by HP and actually is very close to the 20/30b emulators that in part formed the later initial version of the non-QT 34s emulator. It is much quicker and more efficient, but we were never instructed to implement things like the macro recording.

These emulators are really generally created as an offshoot of development. After that there can be a different amount of effort put into them to make them serve as aids for teachers, or possibly for end users.

TW

[Dieter]

Tim, thank you very much for your reply. So there actually is no documentation, neither for the 35s nor the 15C emulator? Not even a table with the keyboard mapping? While Ctrl seems to do a blue/g-shift on both emulators, I could not find out how to get a f-shift in the 15C-emulator.

BTW, there seems to be a bug in the "paste number" function. It only works correctly with a dot as the decimal marker, but not with a comma. Try to paste a number like "6,022 E23" and the display shows "6.022 E23" which then translates to 6,022 E26. Even a simple "123,45" is interpreted as 12345.

Finally, it would be nice if copy/paste supported the usual shortcuts Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. This way they could also be used with a hidden titlebar. ;-)

Dieter

[fhub]

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So there actually is no documentation, neither for the 35s nor the 15C emulator?

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There is a documentation included, but only for the calculator itself, not for the emulator.

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Not even a table with the keyboard mapping?

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You can find the keyboard mapping in the files *.skin. It is the block with 'key=...' which defines the assignments.

The structure is as follows:

key=n,x1,y1,x2,y2,{keycode-list}

'n' is the key-number (0-39) and the following 4 number define the rectangle position of the key.

For the key assignment the last list is important - here you can enter the scancodes of the PC-key which you want to use for this emulator key.

Example: key=0,68,221,132,274,{78,112}

This is key 0 (the top left 'sqrt(x)' key), and the numbers 78 and 112 stand for the PC-keys [N] and [F1].

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While Ctrl seems to do a blue/g-shift on both emulators, I could not find out how to get a f-shift in the 15C-emulator.

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This assignment is the line

key=31,158,513,226,571,{16}

and although the scancode 16 is correct for the PC-Shift-key, it doesn't work. I guess there is a bug in the emulator which prevents using the Shift-key as a single key (e.g. for the [f] prefix). Maybe the reason is that you can also assign shifted PC-keys to any emulator key (in that case you have to add 1000 to the scancode), and so the Shift-key alone can't be used as assignable key.

Maybe a good other choice for [f] would be the Tab-key on the PC, this key has the scancode 9, so just replace 16 in the list above with 9.

Franz

[Kiyoshi Akima]

On the 30b emulator, how do I hold down the shift key so I can get to the programming functions?

[Tim Wessman]

I think right click, then left click with both buttons. Could be wrong though...been a while.

TW

[Dieter]

Thanks - at least this means you can get an individual keyboard mapping.

I made some changes to the .skin file - [f] and [g] now are simply f and g on the PC keyboard. #-)

Dieter

[fhub]

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Thanks - at least this means you can get an individual keyboard mapping.

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Yes, but in the meantime I've found another bug: the use of shifted PC keys (by adding 1000 to their code) does also not work. :-(

And the predefined key assignment are simply copied from the 12c emulator, and so they make no sense here at all.

Well, with these graphical glitches and now also the key problems I really must say that this is the worst calculator emulator I've ever seen. :-(

BTW, [f] and [g] can also be simulated with a middle and right mouseclick.

Franz

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

Tim, thanks for mentioning the 34s. The emulator was a direct descendant of the SDK released by HP (mostly Cyrille, I suspect). My contribution was mainly to separate the code from the calculator engine and move it to a DLL. Some 34s specific additions were made but they are minor compared to the work put into the emulator from your side.

[Reth]

I hate emulators. I thought this site was about the "real thing".
There are "emulator fans"?
I feel sorrow for them.

[Eddie W. Shore]

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I hate emulators. I thought this site was about the "real thing".
There are "emulator fans"?
I feel sorrow for them.

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This forum is about calculators and mathematics, including the "real thing", apps, and emulators.

[Mike (Stgt)]

Emulators are the poor man's hardware. I can not afford an IBM 9121 and the needed peripherals and if you feel sorrow for that, well, frankly, it does not help me in no way. But the Hercules emulator does. This and most emulators/simulators of pocket calculators are great fun. My personal joy. :)

Regarding the technology, 'Virtual Machine', what you may translate to 'simulate or emulate hardware' (still up to date in z/VM), is a common tool to set up server clusters. So if you hate emulators, it is your private joy. ;)

Ciao.....Mike

BTW, I could imagine that new calculators are engineered with the help of virtual hardware. So next time you have a real HP at hand, remember, it is the fruit of an emulator - if you hate it or not.

[Thomas Klemm]

So you hate the HP-50g, HP-15C LE and the newest HP-12C? Because all of them are emulators. Contrary to you I'm glad that there are emulators. It makes writing programs so much easier. And it makes it possible to use different models on the same device like a smart phone. Still I'm fond of the "real thing". But I don't want to cary them with me all the time.

And then I'm amazed that I can boot a Linux System in the browser of my iPhone: Javascript PC Emulator . Now I'm going to download Nonpareil and run the HP-41C emulator in it.

Cheers

Thomas

[Reth]

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So you hate the HP-50g, HP-15C LE and the newest HP-12C?

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Yes, I "hate" them all, but not because they are emulators. HP50 is a joke, 15C LE is buggy and mine had faulty keyboard which I had to fix, 12C is of no use to me.

[Neil Hamilton (Ottawa)]

Hi Reth,

I happened to be reading some past comments about other emulators while looking up an unrelated topic. Oddly, I think there seems to be some drift in the tone of your comments over time (posted 9 May 2008, 7:01 a.m.):

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Hi Thomas, first of all I'd like to thank you big time for your brilliant work, absolutely impressive! And please do port your emulator for the iphone/ipod touch (they are identical in that respect as you guessed). I just can't wait to see how your beautiful implementation of one of the greatest calculators ever runs on one of the greatest contemporary platforms. Be good and keep up the good work,
cheers,
reth

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Possibly this is another person using the handle Reth. If not, then 1) you have commented on emulators in this forum in the past, and 2) you seem to have a soft spot for at least some of them.

Perhaps since that time you have felt wronged or personally let down by an emulator or two and have come to resent and be bitter about them all. Understandable, I once ate a fish that disagreed with me and to this day I cannot look at the ocean the same way. The counselling and therapy are going well, however, I can now at least resume showers again!

I, for one, quite enjoy having emulators available, and though they don't replace the sensual tactile encounter of a real machine, can be quite pleasurable and useful in their own right -- as a previous Reth seems to have also noted.

All the best...

[Reth]

Free42 is not an emulator but a simulator. I stand behind all my words about Thomas Okken's work! And 42S by Byron Foster is my number one choice for iPhone.

Cheers,

[Nick_S]

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I'm glad that there are emulators. It makes writing programs so much easier.

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I agree, I would rather have a bit-perfect emulation running on a virtual machine, which ensures portability of code and reproducibility of results, rather than an optimized simulation that departs in substantial ways from the original such as the precision, solving algorithms etc.

Nick

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

As long as the emulator is based on the same code base as the original, precision and results should exactly match. No need to emulate on the hardware level. OTH, if only the (old) binary code is available but the original processor no longer is, hardware emulation is the way to go.

HP went both ways: 12C, 15C use hardware emulation; 20b, 30b use the identical code C++ base, compiled for different targets.

[Harald]

Now, how do I flash the 30b to become a WP34S? ;)

And why is there such a significant difference in size between the 20b and 30b?

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

Harald, I know your 'flashing' question is a joke, but nevertheless I can give a serious answer. :)

2nd question first, with the small skin loaded I can see no noticeable difference in size between the 30b and 20b emulators. It should even be possible to transplant the skin(s) of one emulator to the other by copying the *.skin and *.bmp files.

Now back to 'flashing' either emulator to become a 34S. In fact, that's the first thing I did (using the 20b SDK as the target 'machine') when taking my first steps in the 34S project. The GUI part of the original 34S emulator is still mostly HP code...

To make flashing a target ROM image possible would require a totally different emulator architecture than we have now: a complete and faithful ARM/Atmel hardware emulation layer (including write access to flash, and all the peripherals). What we have now is more of a simulator or something between the two extremes: The very same C/C++ code base is compiled for different targets, either by MS Visual Studio or an ARM cross compiler (IAR for HP, GCC for 34S).

[fhub]

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2nd question first, with the small skin loaded I can see no noticeable difference in size between the 30b and 20b emulators.

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I guess Harald means the sizes of the package-files.

The reason why the 30b package is bigger: it contains twice as many skins as the 20b - for each skin there's also a 'devel' version (development?) for the 30b.

Franz

[Harald]

Yes, that is what I meant. Thanks Franz!

[Harald]

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Now back to 'flashing' either emulator to become a 34S. In fact, that's the first thing I did (using the 20b SDK as the target 'machine') when taking my first steps in the 34S project. The GUI part of the original 34S emulator is still mostly HP code...

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I see.

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To make flashing a target ROM image possible would require a totally different emulator architecture than we have now: a complete and faithful ARM/Atmel hardware emulation layer (including write access to flash, and all the peripherals). What we have now is more of a simulator or something between the two extremes: The very same C/C++ code base is compiled for different targets, either by MS Visual Studio or an ARM cross compiler (IAR for HP, GCC for 34S).

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Thats interesting. So potentially the emulator could behave differently from the real machine because the different compilers were used.
I wonder if the 15c emulator does it the other way and emulates the ARM processor. I guess that would make sense in a way, because there won't be any C sources for the original 15C code. On the other hand it might be an emulation of the original 15C processor.

Thanks for the info!
Harald

[Thomas Radtke]

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I wonder if the 15c emulator does it the other way and emulates the ARM processor.

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To the best of my knowledge, it's a simulator of the emulating ARM code, i.e., contained are the original ROM as well as x86 compiled emulating code.

I was previously (probably also) hoping there's the original 30b firmware in the emulator so we have a chance to get a recent firmware with the latest bugfixes. Not so :-/.

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

There is an emulation layer built into the 15C LE which maps the Nut processor to the ARM hardware. In the Windows version this emulation layer exists too, this time mapping the Nut processor to the Windows PC. There is no ARM layer in the PC version.

It should be possible to extract the original 15C (Nut) ROM code out of the Windows version.

[Eddie W. Shore]

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Hi,

HP has released new versions for (almost all) their emulators on their usual emulator sites:

(only a few older financial emulators like the 12c/10bII/17bII are missing)

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/scientific-calculator-emulator.html

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/graphic-calculator-emulators.html

http://www.hp.com/sbso/product/calculators-emulators/finance-calculator-emulators.html

And the good news: these new emulator versions don't need an activation code anymore! :-)

Thanks to HP (and also to Tim Wessman, because I guess it was he who convinced HP to remove this activation code) for making these emulators available.

Franz

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We should be able to use the graphing calculator emulators straight away (without ROMs), correct?

[fhub]

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We should be able to use the graphing calculator emulators straight away (without ROMs), correct?

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Yes, all ROMs are either included or even integrated in the emulators.

Franz

[Eddie W. Shore]

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Yes, all ROMs are either included or even integrated in the emulators.

Franz

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Thanks Franz!

[michael steinmann]

why does the blinking stop?

99! ---> 9.9999E99 blinking

f x2 ---> BLANK SCREEN !?

it's not always, but if the keys are pressed fast enough it happens.

The calculator forensic from http://www.rskey.org/~mwsebastian/miscprj/forensics.htm suggest that the original ROM is used or at least the same algorithm as in the HP-15C.

Except the ugly misaligned pressed keys, I like the graphics of the emulation ... but are there some bumps in the bezel??

[Thomas Radtke]

Some dents and lots of dust indicate perfect emulation of age, too ;-).

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

The 15C emulator shares the bugs of the 15C LE. The (in)famous PSE bug and other display anomalies have been introduced by a less than perfect optimization of the Nut emulation (to be precise the R2D2 emulation) that is shared by the emulator and the LE.

You did better... :-)