This is not the yellow press ...

[Walter B]

... thus it's not sufficient to read the headline ;-)

Hi all,

Up to now, we asked you for your kind opinion about four topics: you voted for the color of the keyplate, the order of the arithmetic operators, the format of menu labels, and (at the very beginning) for the location of the arithmetic operators.

There are, however, some forum members who keep claiming that first poll was not fair - opinions deviate about why they do so. Meanwhile, a number of good reasons were posted for putting the arithmetic keys on either side. Anyway, to settle that dispute, I want to call you for your vote once more. Sorry for the repetition, but it’s apparently the easiest way.

The boundary conditions (per your votes as potential customers and per our decisions as developers) are as follow:

• The keyplate will be black.
  
• The arithmetic operators will be / * - + top down.
  
• The menu labels will be printed underlined.
  
• The fourth row of keys (counted from top) will contain ENTER, x<>y, +/-, EEX, and <- from left to right. ENTER will be double width.
  

These conditions are non-negotiable. Don’t participate in this poll if you don’t accept them.

Now, do you want the primary labels on the bottom four rows of keys look like

Please vote! This poll will close on Monday, December 17th, at 12:12 UTC.

d:-)

Edit: P.S.: Watch it! There's an additional option c specified further below in this thread you should consider.

Edited: 12 Dec 2012, 4:58 p.m. after one or more responses were posted

[Andreas Grund]

Walter,

Version "b" please!

Andreas

[fhub]

I vote for "b"!

And I would recommend to change the message header so that it's clearly recognizable as a poll, else you'll certainly get some complaints again. ;-)

Edit: I see a few other differences between layouts "a" and "b", e.g. there's a yellow 'STATUS' in "b" which is missing in "a"!?

And the yellow 'SHOW' at the multiplication is misplaced IMO, you should better put the factorial (!) there (as in layout "a").

Franz

Edited: 12 Dec 2012, 11:08 a.m. after one or more responses were posted

[Walter B]

Quote:

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... there's a yellow 'STATUS' in "b" which is missing in "a"!?

---

There's a blue 'STATUS' in "a" :-)

Quote:

---

And the yellow 'SHOW' at the multiplication is misplaced IMO, you should better put the factorial (!) there (as in layout "a").

---

IMO the factorial shall be placed next to 'PROB'. But be assured, this layout will change more than once until a 43S will see you.

d:-)

[fhub]

Quote:

---

IMO the factorial shall be placed next to 'PROB'. But be assured, this layout will change more than once until a 43S will see you.

d:-)

---

Well, my main concern was not about factorial but rather about the SHOW, such a command just doesn't fit to an arithmetic key.

But as you said, this will change dozens of times, because everyone has his own layout preferences. ;-)

Franz

[Thomas Radtke]

:a

;^)

[Andrés C. Rodríguez (Argentina)]

Option b.

Thanks for opening the poll again, I missed the previous poll deadline due to a >100% workload in the last month.

A domestic note: the blue label under the "8" key in option "a" or under the "9" key in option b is kind of a "four letter word" here and possibly in other spanish-speaking countries. Yes, there have been endless (and boring) jokes with orthogonality and also about some chemical compounds. It may be good if an alternative name could be considered, or at least another abbreviation (something like ORTH or ORTHG, which will be slighty better). By the way, what functions will belong to that menu?

Best regards

Andrés

PS: The "boundary conditions" for the poll are excellent choices in my opinion.

[Walter B]

Ola Andrés,

Thanks for your information. The menu you mentioned shall contain the orthogonal polynomials (as they are shown on p. 207 of the WP 34S manual). Any better choice for naming the menu is appreciated. I guess a reverted T will not be a good alternative ;-)

d:-)

[Andrés C. Rodríguez (Argentina)]

An inverted "T" looks fine enough for me and, as we already have a "paralell" symbol in the WP34S, seems rather natural in the end. A 3D perspective of the intersection of three orthogonal lines may also be quite intriguing for newcomers but clear enough for the people "in the know".

[M. Joury]

A

[Neil Hamilton (Ottawa)]

B

Every time I pick up my -25 I have to 'relearn' the left side keys. I guess I have moved on...

Cheers...

[Namir]

I vote for:

A

[Mark Storkamp]

Option B

[Thomas Ritschel]

I vote for option "b".

Thomas

[René Franquinet]

B would be my favourite.

[Harald]

Option b, arithmetic keys on the right in the order / * - + from top to bottom please.

[Walter B]

Reading must be difficult :-?

[Harald]

I just thought it would be my turn to add to the confusion now ;)

Option B please!

Better? :)

[Alex Mark (Greece)]

B

[Miguel Toro]

Hello Walter,

I missed the other polls.

I vote for B.

Thanks and regards,

Miguel

[Hans Holzach]

B, please!

[Lyuka]

Hi Walter,

I am afraid that 'On' key probably is not relocatable since it is physically connected to the 'FWUP' pin.

Regards,

Lyuka

[Harald]

This isn't about the HP30B hardware. This is for a completely new hardware.

[Lyuka]

Thanks Harald.
Then, I'll vote for 'B' :-)

[Walter B]

Quote:

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Then, I'll vote for 'B' :-)

---

That is unsurpassed logic! ;-) (emphasis added)

[BruceH]

Quote:

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This isn't about the HP30B hardware. This is for a completely new hardware.

---

In that case:

• Why have the digits in the middle of the keypad?
  An option C would be to have XEQ etc in column 1, the arithmetic operators in column 2 and the digits all shifted one column to the right of where they are now.
  
• Change the ON/OFF key so it is [shift]+[ON] to turn on; [OFF] to turn off. That way there is less chance of the calculator being accidentally turned on and draining the batteries whilst in a backpack or bag

[Walter B]

Quote:

---

An option C would be to have XEQ etc in column 1, the arithmetic operators in column 2 and the digits all shifted one column to the right of where they are now.

---

Thanks for bringing in that idea. Can be done as well. The poll is young enough to let this option C compete.

Whoever wants to change his vote, please don't forget to delete your old vote in this course. Thanks in advance.

d:-)

[Walter B]

Quote:

---

Change the ON/OFF key so it is [shift]+[ON] to turn on; [OFF] to turn off. That way there is less chance of the calculator being accidentally turned on and draining the batteries whilst in a backpack or bag

---

Thankyou also for that idea. We'll think about a shifted ON. An unshifted OFF, however, would cost one primary location - I don't think that pays. We can easily have both functions shifted IMO.

d:-)

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

Quote:

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That way there is less chance of the calculator being accidentally turned on and draining the batteries whilst in a backpack or bag

---

Absolutely not necessary, IMHO. In most calculators the ON key has a lower profile, exactly to avoid such situation. Furthermore, in the unlikely event of the calculator being accidentally turned on the auto shut-off feature will handle that pretty well. A shifted ON key is a needless inconvenience, again IMHO. (I am a bit Uriah-Heepish today :-)

[BruceH]

I like the idea of shift+on / shift+off as a toggle on the same key.

If so then its profile should be the same as other keys so that the its primary function is not interfered with.

[Egan Ford]

"B"

OTOH, my vote is also for sale, contact me privately before the 17th. :-)

[Richard Ottosen]

Would a free calculator with the keys, where they belong, on the left be sufficient? ;-)

-- Richard

Oops. This was supposed to be private...

[Mark Hardman]

Option B please.

[Basil]

B

[Raymond Del Tondo]

Here again for title-unawares: Option b: Arith. keys on the right

Edited: 12 Dec 2012, 1:32 p.m.

[Silvio A. Bensi]

B

[Ethan Conner]

B please

[Juergen Keller]

:b

[David Hayden]

"A" because I think the ENTER key and arithmetic keys should be together.

Dave

[Mike Morrow]

Quote:

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"A" because I think the ENTER key and arithmetic keys should be together.

---

That's the only logical arrangement, so I also agree that only option A makes sense. I don't need to look at or consider any other aspects of these two selections.

Edited: 12 Dec 2012, 3:01 p.m.

[Michael Kussmaul]

b please

Looks great so far!

[Cristian Arezzini]

I'll vote for option B... thanks for reopening the poll.

Cristian

[Jim Creybohm]

Option A please. (Although there seem to be valid arguments for both!)

[Geoff Quickfall]

"B"

So there!

[Ethan Conner]

I laugh when i see people who voted with some statement of emphasis,reason,logic(in their eyes),italics or exclamation point. As if this makes their vote count for more. Lol Never saw a ballot in my life that contained any of these things.

[Geoff Quickfall]

Ethan

I think some are just adding a smile to the poll. It does not seem that the designers want an essay on the reason, just an A or B pick.

I have reasons, but the exclamation mark suffices!

Geoff ! :-)

Edited: 12 Dec 2012, 5:32 p.m.

[Ángel Martin]

still the same as last time:

¨¨ A ¨¨

cheers,
ÁM

[Maximilian Hohmann]

b

[Richard Ottosen]

Version _A_.

-- Richard

[Mark Scheuern]

My vote: A

[Quan]

Option B

[Monte Dalrymple]

A

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

B

[Paul Dale]

B here.

I didn't vote deliberately last time due to not having a strong opinion either way. Since I've been looking more about how I use my 34S and 41CL. The number of times I've gone lower left for on on the CL is embarrassing.

- Pauli

[Dave Johnson]

AAAAAAAAA Please!

[David Griffith]

B

[Jim P]

B please

[Calum Tait]

Option B.

[Forrest Switzer]

No Vote.

[cdtmbu]

I am used to it, so I vote for

B

[Eric Smith]

A

[Morten Nygaard Åsnes]

Option B

[sjthomas]

B

[Derek Walker (UK)]

Option B.

I voted for 'same side as [enter]' in the original poll, but I've realised that all my regular use HPs (15CLE, 35s, 50g) have operators on the right.

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

Welcome to the bright side! :-)

[Derek Walker (UK)]

It's not just the HPs either - all the algebraics in my desk have operators on the right side too, some in a line, some in a square.

I think probably the only left-side calc I have is a 41CV inherited from a retiring colleague but sadly not in working order.

So, too hard to readjust now, despite the logic of left-side keys being close to [enter]!

[Herman T]

B

[Reth]

b of course, b

and thank you for following my suggestion to put them next to each other

Edited: 13 Dec 2012, 5:49 a.m.

[Bill Carter]

B

[Dave Shaffer (Arizona)]

A

(but I fear us A types are being outvoted by the B types)

[Walter B]

Don't be afraid. The only option I guess is really outvoted by now is option C. But this poll runs less than half a day now, and there are four to come.

d:-)

[brian di]

I vote for A.

[james summers]

Option B for me!

[Bernd Grubert]

Walter,

I vote for option A

as on the HP 41 CV.

Regards

Bernd

[Ivan Nejgebauer]

I've never had a problem with arithmetic-keys-on-the-left models, but still prefer

B

[Walter B]

There are

• 15 votes for option a,
  
• 37 votes for option b, and
  
• 1 vote for option c
  

so far if I counted correctly. So let the poll continue.

d:-)

[deleted]

This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted. If all followups have been removed, the original poster may delete this post again to make this placeholder disappear.

[Ethan Conner]

Now we have people "stuffing" the ballot box.

[Thomas Radtke]

That would have happened on most other lists, but not on this :-).

[Walter B]

One man, one vote, please! Thomas, please delete your excess vote - which ever you prefer ;-)

d:-)

[Thomas Radtke]

Quote:

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One man, one vote, please!

---

I impossibly could have known this!

Quote:

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Thomas, please delete your excess vote - which ever you prefer ;-)

---

I did, and it was a hard decision you talked me into.

;^)

[Walter B]

Quote:

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I did, and it was a hard decision you talked me into.

---

But you made it! We are all proud of you.

d;-)

[Steve Perkins]

Option B.

[Mike Hein]

b

[Bruno Férard]

B without hesitation

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

My vote goes to B

A remark to ENTER being close to the arithmetic keys: In a chain calculation, due to automatic stack lift, ENTER isn't used very often. At least on the 34S, Enter has more uses then lifting the stack, so having it standing out is still a good idea, but the proximity to the arithmetic operators is of less importance to me.

Shifted ON might be a serious problem for the hardware developers because ON is typically wired to a special input and not to the keyboard matrix. Thus, the shift key would need to trigger the hardware ON function and the software would wake up in a stealth state waiting for a timely press of the ON key.

Edited: 15 Dec 2012, 11:09 a.m.

[JDonley]

B please.

[Walter B]

d:-)

[Luiz C. Vieira (Brazil)]

Hi.

For the sake of the existing, successful handheld calculators:

B

And for the sake of the outstanding efforts of yours and Paul's in giving us a second choice for a custom handheld calculator: THANKS!

Cheers.

Luiz (Brazil)

[Bart (UK)]

Voting boycotted due to the deliberate use of a non-descriptive subject heading.

[Walter B]

Nice excuse for being late ;-)

[Bart (UK)]

Quote:

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Nice excuse for being late ;-)

---

By 1 minute? Could I not have typed one letter faster and been on time?

[Walter B]

Quote:

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Could I not have typed one letter faster and been on time?

---

Fore sure you could (irrealis) but you didn't. You can use your sentence for teaching grammar ;-)

[Bart (UK)]

Hmmm, the curtness of my reply may cause it to loose it's intended meaning: i.e. if I was answering the poll in the last minute, then had I typed a single letter answer (a, b or c) I could have been on time.

Quote:

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...but you didn't.

---

Good word choice and emphasis, exactly right as it denotes an act of will. I wanted to be not on time. I typed my sentence and waited until 1 minute after the poll closed.

Your smilies do not amuse me in this instance. There are times to be joking and times to be serious. It is obvious you expected serious consideration and answers to your poll. Then you should have seriously considered previous requests to make the subject of the poll clear in the subject heading of the thread.

Further:

• your headline was exactly designed for attention grabbing - yet so non-specific that those not interested in the polls would be obliged to read it to see if it contained anything of interest. So actually it is exactly yellow journalism after all. You possibly intended it that way, which leads to my next point...
• People from all over the world visit here, you cannot expect them to understand the expressions associated with particular cultures. They may see it as a rogue posting or something completely OT to calculators and give it a miss altogether.

Edited: 17 Dec 2012, 10:03 a.m.

[Walter B]

Oh come on! Last thread somebody was complaining because the subject was mentioning it's a poll, now you're complaining because it's not mentioning it. I simply can't please everybody :-/

[Raymond Del Tondo]

Quote:

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Last thread somebody was complaining because the subject was mentioning it's a poll,

---

That sound rather unbelievable. Could you post a link to that complaint?

Quote:

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now you're complaining because it's not mentioning it. I simply can't please everybody :-/

---

What's wrong with descriptive titles?

[Bart (UK)]

As far as I recall the complaint was that it only mentioned that it was a poll, and that it was not clear what the poll was about.

There have been numerous requests to make the subject heading clearer, i.e. that it is a poll and as to what the poll is about. Your poll on the most popular functions is an example of a better subject line. We now know what it's about, but when considering a new project you could add a statement like "new calculator" to that subject line.

And last but not least - thank you for re-polling the arithmetic operator key issue.

[Reth]

So you couldn't figure out what was the poll about? If that's the case you should not vote anyway. And stop teaching us english, please.

[Bart (UK)]

Quote:

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So you couldn't figure out what was the poll about? If that's the case you should not vote anyway. And stop teaching us english, please.

---

You obviously didn't get my drift. It seems like you need those English lessons.

[Reth]

Quote:

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It seems like you need those English lessons.

---

From you? No, thanks.

[Walter B]

There are

• 15 votes for option a,
  
• 43 votes for option b, and
  
• 1 vote for option c
  

if I counted correctly.

That's a clear vote for option b.
Now let's see if the "lefties" are fairer loosers than the "brown right wing".

d:-)

[Maximilian Hohmann]

Quote:

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Now let's see if the "lefties" are fairer loosers than the "brown right wing".

---

Fairer losers? We righties never lost anything, so you can't know what kind of losers we might be ;-) (but I strongly feel that I am going to lose my unshifted H.MS+ in a prominent position :-( )

Edited: 17 Dec 2012, 10:20 a.m.