A poll until next Wednesday, 12.12.12, 12:12 UTC



#84

Hi all,

Since

  1. the keyplate color is now specified to become black and
  2. the four basic arithmetic operators will go to the left
(see the polls in the other thread), there is more we want to ask you for your opinion. Next one is this:

What shall be the order of the arithmetic operators:
/ x - +
or - + x / (top down)?

Please participate!

d:-)

Edited to add the closing time.

Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 7:27 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#85

/ * - +

- Pauli

#86

/ * - +

But honestly, now that they are on the left, I don't really care. So count my vote only if it suits your preference ;-)

#87

- + * /

to be consistent with the HP calculators who have the operators on the left.

Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 7:24 a.m.

#88

- + * / please

And thanks for asking! :)

#89

/ x - + top-down

Herman

#90

/ x - +

Thanks

#91

[XEQ] [^] [v] [EXIT] ;-)

#92

My vote:

-

+

*

/

not surprisingly like the 41 :)

#93

No need for * and / any more. What leaves one key left for something different, BEEP would be nice. :)

Ciao.....Mike


#94

Sorry, is that "- + MOD BEEP" or "BEEP MOD - +"? ;)


#95

The poll asked for *top down*, but the PRN approach for a mod of the beep would be BEEP MOD. So we should re-think.

Ciao.....Mike

#96

/ * - + and please move them on the right side as on 42 and 48, the first poll was corrupted by the hidden question for something already decided and having nothing to do with the main one. Most people are right handed and one's finger should not travel over the keyboard and covering it while triggering action and waiting for result.


#97

I bet most people were right-handed in 1980 as well. Nevertheless all HP pocket calculators had the four elementary operators on their left side then - even the famous 41C. Anyway, we'll ponder on your request though I don't see the previous poll corrupted by anything but a possible lack of attention - which made me wishing 'good morning' to those complaining now in the previous thread. Personally, I'm almost neutral in this matter; i.e. I think I understand both sides - and why shouldn't we try the other way after the WP 34S?


#98

Quote:
Nevertheless all HP pocket calculators had the four elementary operators on their left side then - even the famous 41C.

And that's the reason for using this prehistoric layout in the new calculator, although in fact every modern calculator has them on the right side???

#99

Apparently, the majority prefered that what you call prehistoric. And the minority seems unable to accept that fact. Though we all - with our love for RPN - may look a bit prehistoric, don't we?


Quote:
Apparently, the majority prefered that what you call prehistoric.
No, as some others already mentioned this poll was 'confused' by your a-priori stipulation of "ENTER is left".

Franz, do you really want us to start another poll about putting ENTER to the right??


Quote:
Franz, do you really want us to start another poll about putting ENTER to the right??

Why not, Walter! ;-)

If you want to take other calculators as an example for your new baby, then why not take modern calcs (e.g. the HP-50G, HP-39gII or all TIs) instead of pre-historic machines like the HP-41C.

So the most used place for ENTER (or '=') on modern calculators (and even on computer keyboards) is at the right bottom (near the arithmetic keys) - of course it should still be double-sized!

Franz

Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 9:56 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


I never thought about Enter moving, but now that I think of it, a vertical double-size Enter (like the one in the 15C) at the lower right, doesn't sound bad to me!!

Cristian


Edit: what I mean is this: I really would like operator keys to be on the right. If the community decides that ENTER and operators must be on the same side, then ENTER on the right wouldn't look bad to me...


Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 11:53 a.m.

I think there is reason for a re-vote on the "which side to put the arithmetic operator keys" poll.

Looking at opinions expressed since the poll closed:

Reth                     Right
Silvio A. Bensi Right
Katie Wasserman Right
Ethan Connor Right
Michael Kussmaul Right
David Griffith Right
Cristian Arezzini Right
Raymond Del Tondo Right
Mark Hardman Right
Morten Nygaard Åsnes Right

Dave Shaffer Left
Richard Ottosen Left
Dale Reed Left (or "blanknut" so we can do whatever we want)

Same side as ENTER or Don't Care: none

These are names that I did not see in Gerson's summary of the original poll (sorry if I missed any one). Many are regular contributors to the forum, and it seems they missed out as the poll was only open for about 3 days. The fact that you are now running polls for a week (even if by request of others) you are essentially admitting too that 3 days is too short.

So please re-consider.

Edited: 6 Dec 2012, 4:12 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


Please add me as a left handed user that would prefer the arithmetic operator keys on the right.

If I had known that the original poll was related to Eric's hardware, I would have voted.

Mark Hardman

You missed me. I said "Right" after the poll closed.
I also think the poll was badly worded. Why have two different voting options that mean the same thing (left)? It was all rigged I tell you ;-)

Edited: 6 Dec 2012, 1:16 a.m.

HP41 was great back in the day because of it's cappabilities, not for it's looks or ergonomics. HP improved the latter with the following models like 42 and 48 which remain the most popular even today. As we all know 42 lacked IO, had no enough memory, had bad display, did not have decent alpha keyboard, 48 is too big, shared cursor keys with alpha chars. All of the above taken into consideration and after the success of the WP34S we'd have a winner staying close to the three mentioned above as far as keyboard arrangement is concerned.

---

In addition - forgot to say that HP48 is annoyingly slow comparing it to HP42S.

Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 6:14 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


Quote:
HP41 was great back in the day because of it's cappabilities, not for it's looks or ergonomics.

Well, this is just your opinion.


Of course it is mine. The first time I saw it I thought "what a brick" and that was the impression just about everyone was under. Then I fell in love with it and the rest is history. I still like it more than anything else - nostalgia.

Quote:
great back in the day because of it's cappabilities, not for it's looks or ergonomics

nothing could be more wrong than that statemet, the innovation and usability achieved on the 41 are unmatched to date. For starters, the most uncluttered keyboard for the most complex ever system; but I needn´t go on, this is all subjective after all and there is no telling to taste - not even to bad taste ...


You are also getting me wrong on this - see above. Most of the calculators from that era were slim and small and no so capable of coarse.

FYI I still keep my first HP41C on my desk just because I love to watch it and play with it's lovely keyboard - nothing has come closer to it yet. But other people not necessarily share my passion.


Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 6:12 p.m.

Quote:
In addition - forgot to say that HP48 is annoyingly slow comparing it to HP42S.
Just slightlyOT, but anyway: Here I have to disagree. The 42S OS kernel is a subset of the 48S Series kernel. The 42S kernel would run much faster on the 48S Series hardware. But the native display routines in the 48 are relatively slow, 48 LCD is much bigger, and the 48 OS has to handle many more things (events, data types) than the stripped-down and optimized OS in the 42S. If you want an impression of the real speed of an HP-48, please try SpeedUI, which includes the fastest complete stack environment and display of any real Saturn-based HP 48 ;-)

Quote:
Just slightlyOT, but anyway: Here I have to disagree.

No matter what the reason - the fact stands, HP48 is obviously slower and I'm no talking program run times, but keyboard - display / input - output things. I noticed that at the first moment I played with the then new out of the box HP48. HP42 reacts almost instantly comparing the two.

I've also tried your SpeedUI, but IMO it doesn't fix the issue. I may give it another go some of these days.

Cheers,

- + * /

I fully agree.


On what? Please specify what you vote for. Grazie!


On /*-+ (top-down) at the right side and the comments.

Quote:
first poll was corrupted

Corrupted, "from Latin com-, intensive prefix (see com-), + rup-, pp. stem of rumpere "to break", according to the online
Online Etymology Dictionary. That is the word I was trying to avoid. Great to see someone with guts to use it.


Gerson,

  1. por favor veja a minha mensagem em cima;
  2. my Latin dictionary tells me: corrumpo 1a) vernichten ...; 1b) ungenutzt lassen; 2a) verderben ...; 2b) beschädigen ...; 2c) (ver)fälschen; 3a) untergraben; 3b) bestechen; 3c) verführen. Now what didn't you have the guts to tell us?
([:-)

Walter,

I know a corrupt process when I see one, and I do know what the word means. If you sincerely believe the first poll was fair, perhaps you should have used the same criteria on all subsequent polls.
Well I won't make any further comment on this subject anymore neither will I participate in any other poll.

Anyway, I wish you all good luck in this project and hope the final product meets most people's expectations.

Regards,

Gerson.


For me, as I stated on another thread, the main problem was the lack of "honesty" (forgive me the word, I can't find a better one) about the purpose of the poll.
Sometimes I don't have much time, and I just "skim" through the posts, and I honestly don't care about many "pointless" polls. Had I known this was serious - i.e. had the poll been named "We're building a new calculator, tell us how you want it" - I would surely have deemed it worth the time.
And it should have run for a longer time.

Cristian

Quote:
I know a corrupt process when I see one, and I do know what the word means. If you sincerely believe the first poll was fair, perhaps you should have used the same criteria on all subsequent polls.
If the subsequent polls were like the first (corrupted and interrupted) one, I'd certainly back out and ignore all following so-called polls.
Fortunately there seems to be kinda evolution regarding the poll definition. So if the next poll also featured a meaningful title (instead of "Another poll"), it would help many people keeping an overview of the various polls.

For the records:

Best solution: /*-+ on the right side

2nd best solution: -+*/ on the left side

And I'd like to suggest a new poll about the side for the arithmetic keys, since it should now be clear that the 1st poll was problematic at least.


Quote:
...

And I'd like to suggest a new poll about the side for the arithmetic keys, since it should now be clear that the 1st poll was problematic at least.


I second that, what's the problem having another one at the end of the day? Nothing is carved in stone yet.

Or let's do a poll if to have another poll :)


Quote:
Or let's do a poll if to have another poll :)

Great! I do love that. Let's do a poll if we'd have a poll if we'll have a poll if to have another poll about ... ummh ... I forgot the question :-? Sounds like MBPA (management by polling around) ;-)

So which poll we'll do first?
Would you put together the alternative arrangement?

Edited: 6 Dec 2012, 3:52 a.m.


Quote:
So which poll we'll do first?

I dunno. If you want to do a poll, do it whenever you want. We do the polls we want to whenever we want. That's called the freedom of the poll ;-)

And there will be one last poll, the most important one, make sure nobody misses it ;)

I have to second that too.
(When am I the second one to second something, it that correct that I third it ? )


1st best solution: /*-+ on the right side (fast entry - new calculator design)

2nd best solution: +-*/ on the left side (just like the classic - jurassic - design)

Edited: 6 Dec 2012, 5:04 a.m.

I agree right-side, / * - +.

/ * - +


/ * - + right side

- + x /

left, of course.


I'm with Massimo:

- + x /

left, of course

/*-+

/ * - + Right side

-+*/ on the left of course just like my beloved prehistoric Hp-80

/*-+ on the right of course just like my beloved prehistoric Hp-81

Both in daily use...

...so I guess it's a tie :-)

Cheers to all !

Etienne


Quote:

-+*/ on the left of course just like my beloved prehistoric Hp-80

/*-+ on the right of course just like my beloved prehistoric Hp-81

Both in daily use...

...so I guess it's a tie :-)


Well, then let's make it on both sides, left and right! ;-)

Franz

I'll start with my response to the poll:

/ x - +

Now, the justification, and comments that have been stewing in my head related to all the recent polls and layout discussions.

Firstly, I'm right-handed.

Secondly, I received an HP-25 for my 18th birthday in 1975.

So you know the biases and preconceived notions I'm working from...

I believe that the first, and maybe only, part of any calculator people work by touch alone, without looking, would be the number keys and the decimal point. Unless they use the calculator very frequently, they will LOOK when they do anything else, with the possible exceptions of ADD (+) and SUMMATION (Sigma +) (or, maybe R/S, for people who use programs extensively). I believe those items should be corner keys if you want to do them by touch.

Based on that reasoning, and assuming a right-handed operator, if you are resting your right hand on the number keys, EVERYTHING else should be visible. The number keys should be on the farthest bottom right.

I believe all the number entry stuff should be together: digits, decimal point, +/- (CHS), E (EE, EEX), backspace (<-), and, for complex numbers, i (j) and/or angle (theta). I also believe the stack manipulation keys should be near the ENTER^ key -- in a block or in the same row or column.

The four basic arithmetic operators should be together, and, as I stated above, + should be a corner key.

Doing those things, I would argue for a keyboard with this layout (assuming five colums of keys in all rows below the ENTER key):

     ENTER^         Rv       x<>y       <-

/ Theta 7 8 9

* i 4 5 6

- CHS 1 2 3

+ EEX 0 . Sigma+ <--(or R/S)

I guess I'm a key short in the ENTER^ key row... Sorry. We can discuss what else should be in this row that "works well" with stack manipulation. (But I don't think I'd make roll-up a primary key.) Hmmmm.... Would RCL count as related to stack manipulation / number entry (with STO -- which should be primary -- immediately above it)?

Walter, I really DON'T like turning polls of "select A or B" into messy flame wars. But in this case, I HAD to point out some of the flaws I've seen in the arguments, especially about what gets "covered" by your hand (assuming most users are right-handed).

The above layout:

1. Puts + and Sigma+ in the corners, easiest to find by touch.

2. Puts all the number entry stuff, inclding for complex numbers, in one block, as far to the bottom right as possible so as not to have any function keys (except Sigma+ per item 1) "covered" when your right hand is resting on the digit keys.

3. Puts the arithmetic operators in a reasonable order, based on locating + per item 1.

4. Puts the backspace in a convenient "little-finger" place, similar to its location in a typing keyboard.

5. Puts the double-wide ENTER key (WITH the upward pointing arrow, please!) in a familiar location for the vast majority of RPM calculator users.

6. Little things -- CHS next to MINUS, THETA next to / (for angle) or % (division symbol, not percent) is just "prettier"... I'm weird that way.

I'm sure I'll be told why I'm wrong...

Dale


Please take the following as tongue-in-cheek and not as rant. Thanks!

Or we could make it an "Option 001" ("blankie"?) and include an overlay kit. Make whatever the heck you want and have an easy tool to assign whatever you want to whatever key you want. Work in octal a lot? Make 8 and 9 shifted.

Whatever you pick based on polling, experience here in the states with recent polls shows that at least 48% (and probably more) won't like it. Make them ALL put in the work to make it their own -- then all they can complain about is the work.

Then the only decision becomes where to put the double-wide button.
Good luck with that, my friend.....

(I'm doing a PCB layout now for one of my own design. It's a landscape layout with the ENTER^ key double-wide in the center of the bottom row. Makes a great space bar in Alpha mode.)

Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 11:10 p.m.


Hmmmh, that reminds me of -

wait a bit -

I've to dig really deeper -

ooh ...

oh ...

uh ...

I've got it!

Something like this

of 2008?

d;-)


Just stop all the polls and do that one. :)


Seconded :-) This is a class above the rest, though you need to keep the enter key vertical, surely. I'm not sure how you would type in all the letters in the example string?

Nick


Edited: 6 Dec 2012, 2:16 a.m.


Thirded! That looks near perfect. Definitely /*-+ in any case.

Walter, that's frighteningly close to what I had in mind. However, I'm going to have to steal some of that design for mine! I hope you don't mind.

I especially like the way you handled the A B C D E F for hex entry by the engraving on the surround for the display. I hadn't solved that problem.

However, I'm going to put the four cursor keys in a diamond instead of a square. I'll have room because I'm using a 4-line 20-character display, a bit narrower and taller than what you've shown.

I appreciate that MOD found its way to a shift of the Divide key. Little things like that, putting "related" functions on the same key... nice. Also, interesting that the keys have no alpha labels. Of course, if one were a touch typist, the locations of Q W E R T Y U I O P, A S D F G H J K L ;, and Z X C V B N M , . might not need to be shown. (A Z E R T Y or Q W E R T Z for some of you...) But if the keyboard can be used for alpha mode, you'll need labels for some of the other punctuation if they can be used in programming.

In my experience, I like Rv (Roll Down) as a primary key. So I'm curious what the right-arrow key below SIN does in your design.

Perhaps you and I should chat directly via e-mail and share thoughts...

THANKS VERY MUCH for sharing! I'll have to find a site where I can post the Visio drawing of what I have in mind so I can share with everybody and learn what all is TOTALLY WRONG in my design! ;-)

Dale


Dale,

Look what the -> does in our WP 34S, it's the successor of what you see here. Just drop me an email and I'll send you another design of 2008 showing a cursor diamond - you'll find this and other design drafts searching the forum archives (well, I don't have to search, I know where I find my drafts).

d:-)

/, x, -, +

And I agree with others that they should be on the right side.

Mark Hardman


Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 2:42 p.m.

/*-+ from the top down along the right side.

/
*
-
+

- + x /

- + * /

/ * - +

d:-)


I was taught at school of the acronym BODMAS.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-bodmas.html

therefore the order should be

/

x

+

-


The order that you carry out operations when performing a calculation doesn't have any obvious relation to where the keys are located on the keyboard.

Quote:
/ * - +

d:-)


... on the right hand side

Quote:
/ * - +
d:-)


... on the right hand side




No, please: top row!

- + * /

- + x /, all the time!

- + x ÷

(- + x / in case it doesn't show right)

Purging all the extra statements, ambiguous and spoiled votes, the following is what remains so far:

  • 16 votes for / x - + (Pauli, Maximilian, Herman, Bart, Reth, Silvio, Katie, Ethan, Hans, Quan, Dale, Calum, Mark H., David G., Morten, Walter)
  • 11 votes for - + x / (Didier, Harald, Ángel, Mark S., Massimo, Dave, Eddie, Eric, David H., aurelio, Pete)
If anybody feels being misunderstood, there's still time to answer the question unambiguously.

The last vote so far was dropped four days ago. The next poll will probably cover a shorter time interval than a full week, to accelerate the decision process a bit.

d:-)


Quote:
Purging all the extra statements, ambiguous and spoiled votes, the following is what remains so far:
  • 16 votes for / x - + (Pauli, Maximilian, Herman, Bart, Reth, Silvio, Katie, Ethan, Hans, Quan, Dale, Calum, Mark H., David G., Morten, Walter)
  • 11 votes for - + x / (Didier, Harald, Ángel, Mark S., Massimo, Dave, Eddie, Eric, David H., aurelio, Pete)
If anybody feels being misunderstood, there's still time to answer the question unambiguously.

And this post is a good example why the polls should have a cleaner structure, including a meaningful title.

Where is my vote? I made clear statements regarding the order, incl. my favourite order for each side, although a clean "poll" about the side of the operator keys is still missing. This thread here relies on the (false) assumption that the first (corrupted) "poll" would have resulted in left-side order, which it doesn't, if you counted the expressed votes again.

This mess could have been avoided easily...

Quote:
The last vote so far was dropped four days ago. The next poll will probably cover a shorter time interval than a full week, to accelerate the decision process a bit.
Again not really a good idea. Did you read the various comments about the first (corrupted) "poll"?


Fortunately these polls are not for something one is obligued to buy...


Let me see. The poll is about:

Quote:
What shall be the order of the arithmetic operators:
/ x - +
or - + x / (top down)?

Your vote was and is so far:
Quote:
For the records:

Best solution: /*-+ on the right side

2nd best solution: -+*/ on the left side

Now, where shall I put your vote? Please tell me: / x - + or - + x /. Tertium non datur.

d:-)


Quote:
Let me see. The poll is about:

Now, where shall I put your vote? Please tell me: / x - + or - + x /. Tertium non datur.

d:-)


Well, I am obviously biased, but given that you clearly stated the keys go to the left, I would count that as a -+x/.

I would have voted for /*-+ on the right, given that option, too.

At least Raymond understood that this was not an option in this poll. I recon there still are a lot of people who said /*-x, but actually meant /*-+ on the RIGHT. Weather they did not read the question properly, or chose too ignore it, I do not know.

Edit:
I'll read through this in more detail when I get home, but for example Katie and Silvio definitely voted for /*-+ on the RIGHT. I don't think you can count that as /*-+ on the LEFT. In my opinion these votes are void.

Cheers,
Harald

Edited: 10 Dec 2012, 9:04 a.m.


Thanks, Harald, for your interpretation. I think, however, every voter is old enough to speak for himself/herself. OTOH I did also assume every voter is able to read and understand the question, but ... :-/

d:-)


There were no problems in the subsequent "polls" if the 1st one had been clearly defined, which wasn't the case, as can be seen by the responses of various posters.

The 1st "poll" was simply void at the time you abruptly closed it.
Even this "poll" was problematic at least, since it predefined a result of the 1st non-valid "poll", and thus had a non-valid startup condition.

Edited: 11 Dec 2012, 12:10 a.m.

Quoting you (maybe not exactly, but from the meaning) "Who is able to read, read."

The first "poll" and this one are depending on each other. Just carefully re-count the votes in the 1st "poll" , and you'll automatically have my vote for this one.

My answer in that "poll" ("A new product of Spee Dee Sign d;-)") was reply #73, and my answer in this "poll" (top-down order) was given in reply #77 already.

Now that I took a look into that thread, which already moved into the site archive, I wonder why the so-called "polls" were not broken out of the thread in the first place. It could have been so easy...

(Edited to add the reply number from the other thread)

Edited: 11 Dec 2012, 7:20 a.m.

Thanks for your voting. It sums up to:

  • 16 votes for / x - + (Pauli, Maximilian, Herman, Bart, Reth, Silvio, Katie, Ethan, Hans, Quan, Dale, Calum, Mark H., David G., Morten, Walter)
  • 11 votes for - + x / (Didier, Harald, Ángel, Mark S., Massimo, Dave, Eddie, Eric, David H., aurelio, Pete)
One person was complaining, but the difference is large enough that one vote is not crucial. The obvious winner is / x - +!

d:-)


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