HP-39g II Acquistion



#56

Hi all,

Correct me if need be. Since the 39g II is already available outside the US, and presuming it has been set to English localization, is it possible to purchase one for use in and shipment to the US?


#57

+1


#58

What does that mean?


#59

I think it means "me too" or "I'd like that info as well, thank you very much" or some such thing.


#60

Thanks for the clarification.

#61

While +1 is recognized just about everywhere online I would think that in this forum 1+ would be more applicable. :-)


#62

I've noticed this RPN version being used by Raymond Del Tondo in a couple of occasions:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv020.cgi?read=189684 (Message #113)

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv020.cgi?read=207695 (Message #2)

#63

1 ST+

#64

I ordered on from Spain (http://www.thecalculatorstore.com/). It is a bit expensive. They will take out the sales tax when you check out.

Namir

Edited: 20 July 2012, 4:50 p.m.


#65

Presuming you have one, is it an English language unit or is it localized for Spain?


#66

I just ordered the unit last night. I will certainly share here when the unit arrives.

Namir


#67

Thanks. I thought that your post was made in light of already owning the 39g II.

#68

Quote:
is it an English language unit or is it localized for Spain?

If the calculator is identical to the emulator, then you can chose between different languages.

But you can try it yourself, the emulator is available here:

http://www.sesco.ch/db/daten/dokumente/hp39gII_emulator.zip

Edited: 20 July 2012, 5:38 p.m.


#69

Hmm. That one was not supposed to be put up for download anywhere. Wonder which distributor did it. It doesn't have the manuals, languages and so on. Nor will it ever prompt for an update when there is one available. The emulator will be up shortly on the teacher emulator site.

In the meantime, download and install here to get the correct one.

Anyone finiding any issues, bugs, having rants, and so on please send directly to me. Thanks!

TW

Edited: 21 July 2012, 2:35 a.m.


#70

Quote:
Hmm. That one was not supposed to be put up for download anywhere. Wonder which distributor did it.

It's on the website of a Swiss HP distributor:

http://www.hp4calc.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=2&lang=de
Quote:
Anyone finiding any issues, bugs, having rants, and so on please send directly to me.

Well, I've already reported twice the problem of strange filenames with unreadable names which are created again and again (usually 5 new ones) with every emulator start (after using the emulator 100 times you'll have about 500 such useless files in %APPDATA%\HP39gII), but all I got as an answer from you was "I have never seen this issue" (and it's not fixed even in the last version).

But I can definitely reproduce it everytime in both of my computers (with WinXP and Win7).

Franz

Edited: 21 July 2012, 6:55 a.m.


#71

Quote:

Well, I've already reported twice the problem of strange filenames with unreadable names which are created again and again


I can confirm this behaviour.

Günter

Edit: Behaviour of the emulator :-)


Edited: 21 July 2012, 4:32 p.m.

#72

I had never seen the issue before then. I have since seen it.

The important thing is though that it doesn't cause any sort of issue or problem and hence no need to hold up releasing it to go through more testing cycles.

TW


#73

Quote:
The important thing is though that it doesn't cause any sort of issue or problem and hence no need to hold up releasing it to go through more testing cycles.

Creating hundreds of unnecessary files is no issue or problem???

Ok, then release a program with a known bug (which could certainly be fixed in just a few minutes) ... :-(

Franz


#74

Yes, it does not matter. The average user will not be poking around in %APPDATA%. The files are not read into the emulator. They can cause no possible harm other then making some tiny files appear in 1 folder. The next version that is put out will remove them either during the install or when a reset happens. By definition I believe that meets the standard of a bug that does not count as critical.

I seem to recall many people here who were very anxious to have the software...

TW


#75

Quote:
The files are not read into the emulator.

So what's then the purpose of these *.hpappprgm files?

Franz


#76

That type of file is loaded, but the specific ones you are talking about never will be since they are orphaned files.

Basically, each application consists of 3 files. One is a data file, then a note file, and then a program file. So when you send an application, the associated note and program file are sent along with it. This allows you to have functions that are run when the application starts, or customize views, or provide new capability in the application.


TW

#77

Quote:
Anyone finiding any issues, bugs, having rants, and so on please send directly to me.

Be aware that I've already sent Tim a list of typos in the built-in help before anyone else spends time on it.

#78

And.....fixed! Thanks so much for the list.

TW

#79

Thank you for the emulator. The shifted EEX just baffles me. Watching HP trying to update the TI-86 is strange. Apart from that, units handling and unicode support look nice.


#80

I agree.The Shifted EEX and his position is a curious idea.
I regret also that the position of the 'letters' (A..Z) are not as it is on the 50G : this allows to write letters AND numbers with Alpha lock.


#81

Which makes me wonder...If we can spot these quirks, what was going on (or not) in the HP R&D area that they missed these points?


#82

Nothing was missed. Rather, I have noticed that most the complaints in keyboard layout I've heard come from people who are not familiar with the 39 style of operation (view switching, app structure and high school level machine) and are expecting a 50g type machine.

TW


#83

I understand. And the choice to have only one shift key allows a more readable keyboard but with some compromises...

I like very much the 50G keyboard but I know that some people found it too complex. The learning curve is long.

The fact is that the 39GII is very easy to use.

About the EEX key, it is not use a lot for math, but a lot in physics. imo the EEX key must be near the digits keys : For example on the 50G, the EEX at the place of the SPC would be perfect. (and switch the SPC with the EEX so it could be use like a ENTER bis with the left thumb (in RPL SPACE is many time as ENTER)


Edited: 21 July 2012, 6:56 p.m.


#84

Yeah. You don't have any argument from me. I tried to figure out every possible way to get it down where I'd prefer too. :-)

TW

#85

It is essentially the same keyboard layout as the 39gs which it replaces. EEX is not very frequently used in most high school level courses and is much less important then for an engineering type machine. Given this, what is wrong with it being where it is?

I would have liked to change the alpha keys, but since we were trying to stay as close as possible to the 39gs that was deemed to much of a change. It also means that you lose the ability to have always available access to the 3 view buttons (SYMB, PLOT, NUM) which is key to the operating methodology of the calculator.

TW

Edited: 21 July 2012, 6:00 p.m.

#86

Please explain the TI-86 comment?

The 39gs was always much more capable in most areas then the 82/83/84 and so even though it was the cheapest compared to any TI offering it fit capability wise more in the middle.

TW


#87

In terms of math capabilities and operation it just reminds me of a TI 85/86, and I find that strange, but what do I know. In terms of hardware it beats them all of course. The unicode support is revolutionary, congratulations. The ability to define a function is very nice, and the units handling too. I'm not familiar with the 39gs. Maybe the shifted position of EEX is fine for high school, but for a number crunching workhorse it's not. And maybe it's just an emulator thing, but I don't think it's a good idea (specially for high school) to allow that any number can be converted to fraction (e.g. Pi, e, Sqrt(2)).


#88

Ok, makes sense re the TI-86 thing now. Thanks.

Yeah, I tried to get EEX somewhere nice. Just couldn't manage it though. Would a shifted EEX down by the numbers be acceptable in your mind? Or would it have to be a primary key.

I think not many people were familiar with the 38/39 series. Kind of unfortunate because they do have some really nice features.

Regarding the fraction thing, I assume that is in reference to the "a b/c" key that flips between decimal, fraction and mixed fraction? If so, that is actually nearly the #1 requested item for all the HP graphing calculators. Short on the heels of that is the ability to do o ' " in numbers.

The algorithm (PDQ) behind that decimal fraction thing actually comes from none other then Joe Horn and is much more capable then any other implementation of which we are aware. Maybe someone has a link to the talk he gave at HHC?

TW


#89

EEX as a primary key makes a lot of sense, as you will probably be using it much more than the Ln key for instance. It's difficult though in this layout: I assume you had to keep the 2nd and 3rd rows that way. If that's the case there might be a chance if you would remove the (-) keystroke and use the - key for the minus sign. You could put the EEX there as Casio does, it is quite useful.

It's about time that calculators with an (algebraic) equation input system unify the (-) sign and the - operation. Maybe there would be a problem with the parser, I don't know... I've used only two calculators that treat the - (operation) as a sign: the Casios Fx 5500L(A), which strangely has a pointless separate (-) key too, and the Fx 850p/880p, which uses just a - key for everything.

If you could transfer the contents of "Views" into additional Modes (or even better move it to the soft menus, just like Sto), then you could move "Math" to the 3rd row, and you would have room for the (-) sign and EEX as primary keys. In that case leaving EEX just above the numbers (like hp 50g, TI 8x, even Sharp) would be good enough IMHO.

If none of the above options are available and EEX has to be shifted whether you like it or not *sigh*, the closer to the numbers the better.

"a b/c" key works great, and the algorithm is outstanding. The problem I see is that it is too good :). I mean, when you are able to find a rational approximation to the whole precision of the machine (I've used the default settings in the emulator), then every number seems to be a rational indeed to the student. In an educational tool like this one, I see a pedagogical trouble: You tell the students that there are (very) different kinds of numbers and then your calculator is able to make all them rational without further explanation.

Anyway, you have some done some impressive things with the OS. Congratulations again.

Edited: 22 July 2012, 2:48 a.m.


#90

The popular TI-84 series also has the exponent (EE) function as a secondary function. I don't think the HP calculator team has done anything wrong with its EEX function in HP-39gII.

Edited: 22 July 2012, 3:17 a.m.


#91

True, the TI 82, 83, 84 do have a shifted EE above the numbers (the 81 doesn't). I don't think that's one of their strong points however, and that's why I prefer the 85/86, 89, or any modern graphing Casio over them (we're talking about algebraic ones). It just makes more sense, and you can use the calculator as a serious tool beyond high school. No one would get a scientific calculator without a dedicated EEX.

The fact that TI can make such poor choices and get away with it doesn't make them good. They probably did that because they ran out of keys with the TI 82: they wanted a primary (,) because they were introducing lists and didn't dare to remove the TI 81 inverse key. As the 82 didn't have soft menus they had to put everything on the layout. Then they used the same wildly popular layout on the 83 and the 84.

Well, the HP 39gII has soft menus, just like the TI 85/86, and in that case TI could afford to do the sensible thing (they sold a lot of them too). The TI 89 keeps an EE key (and shifts the transcendental functions instead!). The NSpire CX has a dedicated EE key too... It is arguable at least, isn't it?


Edited: 22 July 2012, 4:40 a.m.


#92

It's a matter of personal preference. To me, it's no big deal whether the EEX function is designed as a primary or secondary function on the keyboard.

#93

I don't mind the shifted EE key as much. Perhaps in my profession and practice I don't use the EE as much, that could be it.

#94

Thanks for the detailed post!

There was actually lots of discussion regarding the negative vs minus thing. Unfortunately, the educators and testing people reacted very, very negatively to it. :-(

TW


#95

Quote:
There was actually lots of discussion regarding the negative vs minus thing.

I'd trade the (-) key for a GOTO key! :-)

#96

We will need a RPN calc app to have a real usage of the (-) key :)

Patrice

#97

Quote:
...
It's about time that calculators with an (algebraic) equation input system unify the (-) sign and the - operation. Maybe there would be a problem with the parser, I don't know... I've used only two calculators that treat the - (operation) as a sign: the Casios Fx 5500L(A), which strangely has a pointless separate (-) key too, and the Fx 850p/880p, which uses just a - key for everything.
...

If none of the above options are available and EEX has to be
Anyway, you have some done some impressive things with the OS. Congratulations again.


Manolo,

It would make things easier and maybe more practical to have a "unified" subtraction/negation sign.

I also echo your compliments.

Eddie


#98

Tim Wessman's comments made me realise the implementation might be there... So I checked: the HP 39gII (at least the emulator) already does exactly this! you can use the - (subtraction) as (-) sign and depending on the context it will be parsed accordingly. The only difference is that if you start a new calculation with a -(subtraction) you will get Ans- , instead of a (-).

The nice thing is that if you enter 2-----2 the answer is zero, (the unary operators turn into shorter -'s after that's been evaluated). As expected you can use the same - everywhere... The (-) sign key can be almost ignored.

Too bad that there are such strong prejudices against removing the (-) sign. When you have an equation input system it is pointless: in handwritten math and computer algebra there's not such a thing. In my experience kids understand the difference between both operators, and find awkward that their calculators don't.

Edited: 22 July 2012, 11:17 p.m.


#99

I agree

the (-) key would be the perfect place for a non shifted EEX !

The "a b/c" key does a great job on Pi!


Indeed!

Also on this newly found approximation:

This is kind of a belated Pi Day celebration. Hopefully not too belated considering yesterday was 22/07, as we write here (in Brazil) :-)

Quick comment: could you make one of the soft keys in the Home screen into an EEX key? As a physics teacher I use EEX all the time; obviously I can press the shift key, but I'd rather not have to!

Apart from this, the calculator is great. It's far simpler to use than the TI offerings and a lot nicer than the Casio equivalents (and I really like Casio machines). Best of all, in the UK at least, it's cheap! Please, HP, market it well. It deserves to succeed.

Nigel (UK)


Quote:
Quick comment: could you make one of the soft keys in the Home screen into an EEX key?

As far I know, this seems not possible.
If the keyboard would be configurable like on the 50G, it would be very easy because the EEX is nothing else that the "E" character. (you can type 1 ALPHA E 25 instead of 1 shift EEX 25)

Edited: 24 July 2012, 6:08 a.m.

The calculator from Europe will probably have multiple language quick start guides. There is only 1 firmware worldwide and all languages are included in it. The only difference would be packaging and manual content.

TW


Now...all we need is for the 39gii to be officially released in the USA! My money's burning a hole in my pocket.


Quote:
Now...all we need is for the 39gii to be officially released in the USA! My money's burning a hole in my pocket.

I second this comment - if not to buy it so I can finally blog about it! :)

I'm looking forward to this one. By the way, would this be a top-of-the-line algebraic model? If so, how does it compare with the 40G
and TI's 89, 92 and Voyage 200 models?


Edited: 21 July 2012, 4:37 p.m.


It is a non-CAS machine. It is more capable then the 83/84 in general, but not quite as powerful capability wise then the 89/92.

The 40gs is not as good, but has a CAS.

TW

Don't worry. I bought the retail package in May in Hong Kong. It's the same package that has been sold in China since late October 2011. When you turn the calculator on in the first time, you've to set a language that is defaulted to English. However, the user's guide is in Simplified Chinese! If you want the English version, you've to read it from the CD-ROM that comes with the package. Here are the photos I took shortly after the purchase:




Edited: 20 July 2012, 10:55 p.m.


I received mine in a package with a "started guide"(or something like that) in many language (included french).

The integrated help is very well done, and the french translation perfect.

The calc is easy to use with the "apps" and "contextuel menus"


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