ENTER^ is your friend



#28

Hello all.

As a longtime RPN enthusiast and HP user I'd hate to see our beloved ENTER^ key relegated to fingernail-sized status. Although the 32SII and 35S retain the trademark length (unfortunately dropping the up arrow), I still would like to see future HP calculators incorporate the legendary ENTER^ key in its original glory.

Perhaps for starters, RPN should be recampaigned. Yes, although this new generation of kids would rather play with a cool TI or Casio with its neato Algebraic entry but, I firmly believe that RPN and the trademark ENTER^ key can be marketed as a much more natural problem solving ideology. In addition, the approach of 'solving the problem naturally as you would on paper,' should be the campaign strategy rather than the 'forced to restructure the problem to fit the calculator' approach.

Yes, in a sense, the problem is being restructured, rearranged to fit the RPN way BUT, it's in synch with how to logically think the problem through. In addition, if users can see the ambiguity and peculiarity of having to use extra parentheses and other punctuations to avoid the misinterpretation of an algebraic statement, I'm certain this would make the case for RPN much stronger.

So, HP, please restore our beloved ENTER^ back to its former glory.
Any thoughts?

Edited: 25 May 2012, 3:52 p.m.


#29

Yup. Agreed.


Let's start with the 50G makeover :

- Big ENTER^ key in the right place

- Backlit display (Like CASIO Prizm), maybe backlit keyboard, too
(Tiny LEDs)

- Better tactility on keyboard

- Classier key design (HP.48G series a good start point)


My $0.02

John Stark


#30

Quote:
Yup. Agreed.

Let's start with the 50G makeover :

- Big ENTER^ key in the right place


And NO SKIMPING, the up arrow is MANDATORY!

Quote:
- Backlit display (Like CASIO Prizm), maybe backlit keyboard, too
(Tiny LEDs)

I met a lady with an older Kindle the other day. Inasmuch as she puts the Kindle away when it's bedtime because of the lack of a backlight, that makes a backlight diode on a calculator all that much more crucial.

Quote:
- Better tactility on keyboard

- Classier key design (HP.48G series a good start point)


Hey, HP! Bring back the double-shot tactile slanted keys of the HP-67, Woodstocks and Spices!!!

Quote:
My $0.02

John Stark


Well, they're worth a million to me!

Edited: 25 May 2012, 4:38 p.m.


#31

Quote:
I met a lady with an older Kindle the other day. Inasmuch as she puts the Kindle away when it's bedtime because of the lack of a backlight, that makes a backlight diode on a calculator all that much more crucial.

That's a bit silly - the major benefit of the e-ink display is that it's not back-lit and is therefore much easier on the eyes, as well as less disruptive to sleep patterns. For that reason, both Amazon and numerous third parties sell a range of clip-on reading lights and cases with integrated lights, including some which run off the Kindle's internal battery, thereby minimizing weight.

Best,

--- Les

[http://www.lesbell.com.au]

#32

No need for a backlit display with .......

RED LEDDDS! ;D


#33

Which makes me wonder...would OLEDs bridge the gap between LEDs and LCDs? Perhaps red LCD displays would be another option.

Edited: 26 May 2012, 12:00 a.m.

#34

Quote:

Any thoughts?



Yeah, I hear this all the time, and I don't get why it's a big deal.

When you use a calculator, are you using it such that about 50% of the time you're hitting half of it, and otherwise the other half, so it NEEDS to be that big for that reason?

Does it need to be that big just to make it easier to find?

To help visually organize the keyboard?

What?


I've defended the smaller Enter key on the HP50g before: The enter key is next to the space key. This makes a lot of sense for a symbolic calculator like this. When you're entering a symbolic expression in the matrix writer, for instance, Space acts like a "pseudo-Enter" that enters each part of the expression. Then, when you're done, Enter enters it into the matrix.

Other times, they effectively work the same. Eg., 2 Space 3 + puts 5 on the stack.


#35

Good points.

But we are old-time diehards! We *LIKE* our big enter key! Stop trying to confuse the discussion with logic and get with the program! <g>

Cheers,

-Marwan

Edited: 25 May 2012, 5:39 p.m.


#36

I like the large ENTER key AND the quality key construction and feel of old. I'd love to have a completely backlit calc so I can not only see the display but also all the buttons in dimly-lit situations. I'm resisting the temptation to buy a 50g even as the prices drop because I'm waiting for the next gen with hi-res color display and hopefully a return to the quality look and feel of the past. Too much to hope for?

LHH


#37

Too much to hope for? I think not.

I miss my HP-25. Great keys, easy to read display.

I do love my WP-34S even though the donor HP-30b has a keyboard that misses keystrokes once and a while.

Now combine the two....

I hope that the hardware projects like OpenRPN and Eric Smith's DIY will bring back the high quality standards like the keys of the old HPs and the durability.

I've seen HP-25s dropped on concrete, slammed into brick walls (tripping over that power cord can induce rapid acceleration) and even dropped out of a window of a moving car. The worst that happened was a slight scratch on the case. Try that with an HP-50.

I too would like to see a back-lit display. The old LEDs were easy to read in low light or at any angle. I certainly would trade a bigger form factor to accommodate larger batteries, and even having to charge them daily.

Let's just keep hoping...

#38

Quote:
I still would like to see future HP calculators incorporate the legendary ENTER^ key in its original glory.

I firmly believe that RPN and the trademark ENTER^ key can be marketed as a much more natural problem solving ideology.


Do you really want to sell to the younger generation? If you do you need to give up touting the "good old days". The younger generation not only doesn't care, but they will find the attachment to the old double width ENTER key to be curious at best, but more probably idiosyncratic.

#39

Well, I would ultimately request that HP still adhere to marketing RPN calcs to and for its original longtime loyal users. Okay, if they must abandon RPN/RPL to market other calcs to and for a younger audience, please HP, market a second tier line to appeal to the original veterans and supporters of RPN AND return the Enter^ key to its original look, style and size.


Edited: 25 May 2012, 11:57 p.m.


#40

You have already received your concessionary product for longtime HP users in the form of the 15c-LE. For further satisfaction you may purchase the credit card size -10 series from our friend in europe. Thank you for your interest in HP calculators. My name is Ethan Conner and i have approved this message.

#41

The large enter key is a waste of space.


#42

flippant response: But it's OUR wast of space.

real response: someone here once said that the big enter key in the middle of the keyboard ups the value of all the real estate around it by making it findable (my addition: literally findable in the dark)

hank williams jr. response: why do you have a wide enter key? "It's a family tradition"

#43

I'm surprised that these responses miss the key point that HP ignored when more than 30 years ago they started separating the ENTER key from the side of the keyboard on which the /x-+ keys are positioned. All five of these keys should always be on the same side, no matter what side that is. That was true in the early days, and that is true now with the current HP 50G, even if the 50G ENTER key is below the /x-+ keys instead of the preferable position of above them.

The size of the ENTER key is merely cosmetic and stylistic, so it doesn't matter. Its position with respect to the /x-+ keys does.

Edited: 27 May 2012, 2:47 a.m.


#44

ENTER^ and its partners are the essential and trademark tools for RPN and keyboard design should regarded it as. Cases in point: in every lineage prior to the Voyagers,) ENTER^, x<>y and Rv have been in a consistent grouping. As for R^--since a triplicate of RVs can facilitate a single R^, I don't mind that R^ is a bonus feature which the higher-end models enjoy as standard. Yes, LASTx has been relegated to a shifted function but, in the philosophy that at least those former three have been kept in proximity to each other does solidify the point that the RPN toolit is based on these three essential keys and should remain closely tied to each other and their locations should reflect and retain that idea.


Edited: 29 May 2012, 1:32 a.m.


#45

Just crossed my mind: with the WP 34S, we have the opportunity to swap the arithmetic operators to the left again, for the first time after some thirty years. I should mention, however, there'll be an annoyance with '+' being put on that crippled ON/CE key. Food for thoughts?

#46

Yes, your fundamental analysis makes sense.

#47

Quote:
Cases in point: in every lineage prior to the Voyagers,) ENTER^, x<>y and Rv have been in a consistent grouping.
[/quote]
The "consistent grouping" that I recognize is the one where the x<>y and Roll down keys are placed immediaely above the ENTER key. But, with the HP-55 the f and g keys are immediately above the ENTER key, and the x<>y and Roll down keys are one level further up and shifted one key to the right. Where are those keys on the HP-65? Other machines which don't have the consistent grouping are the HP-35, the HP-67 and the HP-41.

#48

Thanks for the clarification. Funny, as I have all of those, I feel silly for overlooking those variations.

#49

Quote:
The size of the ENTER key is merely cosmetic and stylistic, so it doesn't matter.

When I look at the layout of the HP-35 I see that there are no second function keys. Even if ENTER had been a single width key there was no function to be assigned to the extra key which would have become available. So Why was the ENTER key a double width key starting with the HP-35? Does the idea trace back to desktop models, or were they simply trying fill the space?

#50

The 9100A has a double-high ENTER key. But the ENTER key on the 9100B is the same size as all the other keys.

The first desktop model with a double-wide ENTER key is the 9815A/S. This model was in production well after the introduction of the HP 35.

Your question is historically important.

"Why was the [HP 35's] ENTER key a double width key?"

Mark Hardman


#51

It's closer to being triple-width. Compared to the -+x/ keys below it on the Classics, with which the ENTER key is most associated, it's quadruple-width. Style...and nothing else.

#52

I've always found it helpful for orientation (along with the "5" bump). It's width makes it easy to find and hit correctly too. And besides that, you couldn't spell "ENTER" on a short key anyway! :)


LHH


#53

Quote:
And besides that, you couldn't spell "ENTER" on a short key anyway!
They couldn't spell "CLEAR" on a short key so they used "CLR" instead.
#54

Quote:
I'm surprised that these responses miss the key point that HP ignored when more than 30 years ago they started separating the ENTER key from the side of the keyboard on which the /x-+ keys are positioned. All five of these keys should always be on the same side, no matter what side that is. That was true in the early days, and that is true now with the current HP 50G, even if the 50G ENTER key is below the /x-+ keys instead of the preferable position of above them.

The curious thing that happened when the arithmetic keys were moved from the left side to the right side was that the order of the keys was changed; i.e., reading from the top to the bottom of the keyboard, from - + x / when on the left to / x - + when on the right. Even more curious was that the order of the keys on the right mimicked the order on all the TI machines after the TI-2550.

Of course, the earliest TI machines such as the TI-2500 had a truly curious arrangement of the arithmetic keys. The / and x keys were in the top row above the number keys, and the - and + keys were on the right hand side.


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