OT: Jörg is auctioning a TI-88



#2

I'm bidding on it (nickname: mvcube). I'm seriously interested and I don't like bidding wars so I kindly ask the fellows here to disclose who is interested so that we can discuss a strategy, at least amongst us.

Link: TI-88 on eBay


#3

Quote:
I'm seriously interested and I don't like bidding wars so I kindly ask the fellows here to disclose who is interested so that we can discuss a strategy, at least amongst us.

You're statement confuses me. What strategy can there be that won't imply some sort of agreement among the bidders that will result in Jorg being paid less that he might have received. While I'm not interested in bidding on it; If I was, I would not participate in "strategy" with another bidder. Just my opinion.

Bill


#4

I'm just asking the people here not to fiercely bid against me without prior notice. I'm willing to pay a fair price, but it should well stay below the value of a small car. Bidding wars tend to increase prices beyond reasonable limits.


#5

Quote:
Bidding wars tend to increase prices beyond reasonable limits.

Not necessarily - they only increase the price past your reasonable limits. I recommend you stop at your resonable limit and let the other bidders bid to their reasonable limit which may well be higher than yours.

I'm sure Jorg is auctioning it to receive maximum value to him. Otherwise, he should just sell it to you for your reasonable limit and save himself the hassle of auctioning it.

Bill

#6

Just snipe it with your maximum bid 10-30 seconds from the end. If you get it you get it, if not you don't. JBidwatcher is what I use but there are others.

Completely avoids any chance of a bidding war. Well, one involving you.


- Pauli

#7

Marcus;

Looks like an interesting acquisition. From what i remember of what Joerg told me about it; it was a very capable, versatile and expandable machine - with a bad keyboard and begun at a time when TI didn't have the money to fix it. So they gave up. Good thing too because it would have taken a bite out of 41 sales, and they'd be harder to come by now.

One comment on your request: i was almost ready to post a similar request today because there's an hp-70 manual which i know isn't on the museum dvd yet. I was going to buy it and have it shipped to dave to do a good scan but the feeding frenzy has started already and i can see it's going to go crazy. I thought about it and figured that maybe it's not cricket, even to that scotter guy who is clearly just in this for the money (or the glory?). So i think that it's really unfair to Joerg, who's a member here.

I do hope that if you don't get it for that fabled fair price, your neighbor gets it and you get to play with it all you want and tell us what you find out. - db

and - whoever gets that hp-70 applications book: share it with the museum, OK?


#8

My hopes for a reasonable price are sinking. :-( I contacted Jörg who answered that he had already refused to accept an offer which is close to my personal limit.


#9

I would not be surprised if this bids exceed $2,000.

#10

Marcus,

Thanks for your honest comment!

Regards,
Joerg

#11

I do not believe you to be so stupid to advertise an auction where you want to win
You know that this forum has only collector who wants rarities.
You think for a calculator rare they will think of you?
I do not believe it
Or you're helping Joerg :-) or you're too stupid :-)


#12

Robert: You, Marcus, me, and everyone here are guests. Calling people offensive names is against "the terms of use" on the site. More to the point, it's also as rude in English as it would be in Portuguese. Joerg doesn't need shills; every one who wants a TI 88 has already saved that search on ebaby. No one of the 200 or so people that use the wp 34 think Marcus is stupid.

I don't think that his proposal was cool, but that's where it ends - for me anyway. Me, and others here have overstepped the bounds at times too. Lots of forgiveness around here. Just be nice, ok? :-) is only :-) if it's :-)


#13

I don't mind Roberto's post. I was aware that my query would trigger discussions. My only hope was that those in the forum who are seriously interested would not start a fight against each other because they were not aware who is 'the evil other bidder'. My limit is in the vicinity of 2000 € and I'm pretty sure it will go for a lot more. :-(

I understand that Jörg wants to get the most out of the auction. Otherwise he would have offered the calculator outside eBay first.


#14

Save the 2k and come visit here instead ;)


- Pauli


#15

Deal!


#16

Great, Paul, wise advice!

#17

Quote:
Save the 2k and come visit here instead ;)

Even better: let's make a TI-88 emulator! :-)

Franz


#18

Franz,

This is the best comment I have heard about the TI-88. Using an emulator allows us ALL to enjoy it!

Namir


#19

Quote:
This is the best comment I have heard about the TI-88. Using an emulator allows us ALL to enjoy it!

Yes Namir, I'm really a big fan of emulators. :)

Although I do have a few real calculators (HP/TI/Sharp, very few compared to the collectors here), emulators have many advantages:

They cost nothing, need no batteries, no hardware that gets older and may fail, usually running much faster, ...

Franz


#20

And many emulators allow you to read/write programs to the hard disk, OR save the machine's state (memory contents and program).


Namir

#21

I believe that Marcus is extremely intelligent
But do you think a rarity will not have a war to buy?
And Jörg already sent emails offering it to buyers.
I'm sure Jörg deserves an extremely high value because it really is a rarity.
He always helped the community maintain a site without asking for help.
He is one good friend I'll bid on any amount that I can.
If I win it's okay if not I'm happy to help a good friend.
What makes a war but rather to make a calculator extremely rare.
Jörg has sort of a rarity these and be able to deliver it to a happy collector.
I hope you get someone who knows how to appreciate this calculator.
Let's see the last 10 seconds what will happen.
Brazil vs Germany who will win? :-)

#22

It's not soccer ;-))

Right now 4 bidders from the US and one each from Canada, Brazil, France and Germany.

Cheers,

Joerg

#23

Well said, db!

#24

I couldn't justify bidding enough on it to have any realistic hope of winning it.

If I did somehow manage to buy a TI-88, it would be to dump the firmware and try to write an accurate simulation.


#25

Thumbs up!

#26

If no shills are present, the final price will be a fair market price although it may far exceed your own fair price.


#27

If by shills you mean rigged bidding, I say that is not the case because Joerg is very honest.

Edited: 29 Apr 2012, 8:51 a.m.


#28

Namir, Thanks!

I turned down yesterday evening multiple "Buy-It-Now" offers.

Regards,
Joerg


#29

By-the-way, Jörg, VERY nice pictures and advert for the TI-88. Can I ask what sort of camera and lens were used to photograph the calculator? Good luck in selling this fine piece of history.


#30

Jim,

Thanks for the kudos!

Believe it or not - I use a ten year old Sony DSC-S85. When my original DSC-S75 broke a few years ago, I looked into more recent DSC's and they simply don't compare. Luckily I found a "New-In-Box" DSC-S85 on Amazon for about $200. Zeiss lens and huge pixels (only 4 M of them) is the answer...

Regards,
Joerg

#31

Marcus, I'm a little confused.


#32

I think I've changed my mind and will save the cash for a trip to Pauli. He deserves it. :-)


#33

if people are really keen for marcus to obtain this calculator (with a view to him writing an emulator) why not start pledging donations towards his bidding, on condition that he extracts the ROM images and contributes whatever else is required to allow the writing of an emulator?

after all, the physical calculator is just a chunk of plastic and metal - the soul of the machine lies in its code.

cheers,
rob :-)

Edited: 29 Apr 2012, 10:18 a.m.


#34

That's more a job for Eric than for me. He did it in the past for many HP machines with success.

I'm still watching the TI-88. If I should win it (which I seriously doubt), I'll ask Jörg to send it to Eric first. If he manages to find out more about the machine without destroying it, that would be an advantage for the hole group here.


#35

Friends of the TI-88..

Are you aware about this project:


A fellow collector was able to read out the ROM's of the TI-59 (after he tried to decipher the bit pattern under the microscope) and it matches the readable part of the well known patent application.

He understands the CPU and has all the tools you would need:

382 CC 0a01 PCH 222f 0445 Wait Zero Idle

383 CC 1804 ... 0000 0000 BRANCH-C +2

384 CC 1804 PCH 0007 0000 BRANCH-C +2

385 CC 0a01 ... 0000 0000 Wait Zero Idle

386 CC 0a01 PCH 2237 0446 Wait Zero Idle

387 CC 0948 ... 0000 0000 SHIFTR A MANT S -> A

etc etc etc

He prepares right now a 100% perfect emulator, I tested a few early releases and even the RPN module will work!

He could be your man!

Have a great weekend and happy bidding.

Cheers,
Joerg


#36

Hi!

Is it the sourcecode.ino available to us, mortals?

I see five optocouplers, a secondary protoboard with two TI IC's (whatelse is new...) followed by some pull-up resistors and a DB-25 connector (?), and the obvious TI59 (with some plate capacitors in the card reader's head buffer quad amplifier -LM324-, indicating some hacking and teasing my braincells...) plus an Arduino Duemilanove, but I could not identify any further. If this is the TI-59-SMALL.jpg, can we get the BIG/LARGE version? Please?

Cheers!

Luiz (Brazil)


#37

Just remove the "-SMALL" part of the file name.

Beware, it's 2 MByte, you don't want to open it with your smart phone roaming in Europe. Just paid AT&T an cell phone bill of $359 for last month. Every email with attachment I opened in Germany was about $5 :-(

Cheers,
Joerg


#38

Danke Schöen!

I have tried this earlier, did not work... Now it is here!

Based on what I see, it seems that the four plate capacitors are connected to the four coils of the card reader's magnetic head and the analog ground of the LM324. Chances are they are noise suppressors, is that correct?

Ahn... would it be too much asking for the Arduino source code? I teach my students how to develop some simple stuff with Arduino - they are mostly going to be ITechies, and some of them are actually too curious about these 'hands on' devices. I thought about showing them a working TI59 and the picture in order to illustrate what can be done with Arduino. Will not disclose the source code if you could share, just my own research on how to hack vintage digital devices with new platforms.

If the code has any copyright intrinsic routines or portions, that's OK not to share, I'll totally understand.

Thanks again!

Luiz (Brazil)

Edited: 30 Apr 2012, 9:46 p.m.

#39

Quote:
I tested a few early releases and even the RPN module will work!

Hello,

Does TI-59 RPN Simulator module use some undocumented TI-59 features like fast mode, hex codes, HIR registers, printer graphics mode, etc.?

Did you try something of the above on this emulator?

I am interested very much to know if such things work because it will enable us to finally understand some of TI-59 secrets (explanation of HIR 20 "Conditional Return" is the first on the list) in the same way as, for example, Claus Buchholz revealed the complete TI-57 memory map (http://www.rskey.org/CMS/index.php/the-library/100) using my TI-57 emulator, etc.


#40

Please send me your email address - joreg@datamath.org


#41

Done ... Incorrect address, BTW ;-)

#42

Hi,

I could be also interested, could I send you my email address ?

Olivier


#43

Yes, please contact me under my real email address joerg@datamath.org

Thanks and Regards,
Joerg

#44

Quote:
I think I've changed my mind and will save the cash for a trip to Pauli. He deserves it. :-)

But take care, it may be quite dangerous!

The most poisonous animals live in Australia:

The box jellyfish, Inland Taipan, funnel-web spider - and not to forget: Pauli! ;-)

Franz


#45

Quote:
The box jellyfish, Inland Taipan, funnel-web spider

You've only got a fraction of the dangerous ones here: a dozen or more extra snakes, a couple more spiders, another jellyfish or two, the stone fish, crocs, blue ringed octopus, ....


- Pauli


#46

Quote:
You've only got a fraction of the dangerous ones here: a dozen or more extra snakes, a couple more spiders, another jellyfish or two, the stone fish, crocs, blue ringed octopus, ....

Yes I know, a really dangerous continent.

Should I ever don't want to live anymore and think about suicide, then I'll certainly spend my last holidays in Australia. :-)

#47

Despite the preponderance of dangerous animals, most are essentially harmless. If you leave them alone, they leave you alone. If you start chasing and poking them, you get what you deserve.

Of all the snakes, only one doesn't immediately run (slither) away and even that one (the Eastern brown) usually does. A pity really because some of these reptiles are beautiful.

The spiders aren't a problem here, we've only the least dangerous of the bad ones (the red back) which doesn't have a fatal bite or even one requiring hospitalisation most of the time. The funnel web is a problem down South but even then, it doesn't cause much, if any, harm.

The dangerous jellyfish are all tropical and the beaches there have plenty of warning signs and often bottles of vinegar to provide instant pain relief.


- Pauli

#48

Quote:
You've only got a fraction of the dangerous ones here: a dozen or more extra snakes, a couple more spiders, another jellyfish or two, the stone fish, crocs, blue ringed octopus, ....

And worse of all - the drop bears.

Best,

--- Les

[http://www.lesbell.com.au]


#49

Gee, spoil everything. You shouldn't mention the drop bears until the visitors are already here....


- Pauli


#50

At least drop bears are not real. "They are an example of local lore intended to frighten and confuse outsiders" :-)

Gerson.


#51

Of course drop bears are real! They have them in Boulder, Colorado.


#52

Quote:
Of course drop bears are real! They have them in Boulder, Colorado.

Indeed, each year there is usually at least one bear dropping out of a tree per year around here along the Colorado Front Range. Most of the time there is a small crowd watching, and no one is caught unaware that there is a bear lurking up in the tree.


#53

Silly me, I thought it was about a "beer dropping from a tree".

d;-D


Edited: 30 Apr 2012, 10:35 p.m.

#54

Quote:
Gee, spoil everything. You shouldn't mention the drop bears until the visitors are already here....

I was keeping the hoop snakes up my sleeve for that very reason . . .

Best,

--- Les

[http://www.lesbell.com.au]


#55

...and the bunyips...?

#56

The fact that the seller and a bidder have come together here, in a public place, and exchanged words does not imply, but defines collusion.

IMO, this is very foolish and risky behavior, if you like to use eBay.

Edited: 29 Apr 2012, 12:32 p.m.


#57

Should I end the auction and sell it directly to the highest offer or what is your point?

I sold Marcus on eBay on March 9, 2006 a TI Programmer, a TI-55 and a Business Analyst for EUR 31.40.

Three weeks later he bought a Canon F-300P on eBay for EUR 64.24 from me.

August 8, 2008 a PC-200 printer for EUR 35 (Marcus, that was a bargain, they sell no for $100...) and July 13, 2009 a TI-74 Math Cartridge and CI-7 interface for $57.19, together.

February 2010 a Casio CFX-9860G ;-)) and nothing in 2011 and 2012 :-(

Yes, it is a small world and I know some of my eBay "Customers" and some of the HP Forum members. But I don't think that I would risk my reputation here and on eBay (look at my feedback) for what was called earlier in this thread "is just a chunk of plastic and metal"!

Sincerely,
Joerg Woerner


#58

And I once (Jörg still lived in Germany) exchanged a TI-25(?) for another (less rare) sample just because he owns the museum while I'm just interested in technology so it was no question he got the sample he was interested in without any discussion.
Even if we never met I count Jörg to my friends and I'm hoping he sees this similarly.

If I ever get the TI-88, it will go first to someone being able to create an emulator, for the sake of the community.

Pauli, the trip to Brisbane is on schedule anyway. :-)


#59

Quote:
If I ever get the TI-88, it will go first to someone being able to create an emulator, for the sake of the community.

Thumbs up! I sincerely hope it won't get into hands of some collector (sic!) who will just lock it into a cabinet and forget about it ...

#60

I have no horse in the race, I don't care about the auction. I was only trying to point out the foolish nature of what was taking place, if you see that as "hurt", I am sorry for that, it was not intended.

That "just a chunk of plastic and metal" represents revenue to eBay. You entered into a contract with them to have them sell it at auction. Public discussions of setting an agreed upon maximum price is illegal, at least here in the US.

Sell it privately here on the Museum, discuss it all you want. Contract with eBay and then do it, it becomes a legal matter of interest to them.


#61

Quote:
Public discussions of setting an agreed upon maximum price is illegal, at least here in the US.

Sorry, but I don't understand. I was just asking people here *not* to engage themselves in a bidding war. This can't be illegal. Neither can it be that I'm disclosing my interest in the auction. I remember that eBay used to publish the nicknames of bidders and only recently changed their policy.

Jörg has never stepped into the discussion offering an "agreed upon" maximum price. So what's the problem?

#62

I am not a lawyer but as I read it eBay policy does not allow members to use eBay to contact each other to make offers to buy or sell items outside of eBay, i.e. avoiding paying eBay commission. It does not say you can not contact members outside eBay. I am sure they do not care how you publicized your item as long as they get the commission.

It is perfectly legal:
1) for sellers to end a listing early in order to sell an item at the current bid price to the high bidder, 2) for bidders to ask sellers to end a listing early and sell at the current bid price.

I do not see anything wrong we what is going on here, as long as in the end eBay gets its (big) cut. If I were the seller I would let the auction run to the end (or he could donate the chunk of plastic/metal to me and avoid paying a commission).

Regards, HAL

#63

Quote:
Should I end the auction and sell it directly to the highest offer or what is your point?
...
Yes, it is a small world and I know some of my eBay "Customers" and some of the HP Forum members. But I don't think that I would risk my reputation here and on eBay (look at my feedback) for what was called earlier in this thread "is just a chunk of plastic and metal"!

Alternatively you may consider the unique opportunity before
you for an act of "community service" at essentially minimal
cost to youself. Why not defer the auction and offer to
loan the unit to someone here who has expressed interest in
extracting the rom image for the benefit of all?
I'm quite sure EEEbay will still be there tomorrow..


#64

I bet the TI-88 won't survive...

Look what they did with the TI-59 on the picture above ;-))

Cheers,
Joerg


#65

Quote:
I bet the TI-88 won't survive...

Look what they did with the TI-59 on the picture above ;-))


No idea what the handiwork in that picture is trying to accomplish.

But concerning the TI-88, passively capturing a rom image should
be trivial and wouldn't modify the unit in any way.

Even if the internal bus needed to be driven to scan the rom it
appears the CPU has a "test" pin strapped to GND which likely
disables its bus drive. Assuming so (and except for the need to
finesse the test pin) driving the bus could essentially be
accomplished largely through a probe fixture. Even simpler,
a length of flat flexible cable (FFC) could be slipped in
between a module and socket to bring out most needed signals.


#66

The separate ROM chip is certainly easy enough to read. The ROMs and PLAs of the three microcontrollers are a different story. The test mode probably does provide some means for ROM verification, but not (easily) for the PLAs. The behavior of test mode varies considerably across different generations of TI chips. In this generation it appears to provide a way to jam instructions into the internal bus. It may take a lot of experimentation to get anything useful out of it.


#67

Quote:
The test mode probably does provide some means for ROM verification, but not (easily) for the PLAs.

I'd assumed the architecture was functionally documented.
But if the patent is the only available tool for deciphering its
behaviour, I'd agree it may be a non-trivial effort.

Personally I couldn't quite get past its resemblance to
the TI LCD Programmer I have collecting dust somewhere.
Regrettably the value of that abomination isn't found on the
same lunacy curve enjoyed by the ti-88 -- at least as evidenced
by the current Evilbay bid.

#68

No, you should end the auction and sell it to Marcus. :-)

#69

Hello!

Quote:
The fact that the seller and a bidder have come together here, in a public place, and exchanged words does not imply, but defines collusion.
IMO, this is very foolish and risky behavior, if you like to use eBay.

Sorry, but this makes no sense at all. They could have come together publicly directly on eBay as well, because there is always the option to answer openly to questions asked about the auction.

If there had been any "collusion" here, why on earth would they do it on a public forum and not simply by private mail?

Regards,
max


#70

Quote:
...Sorry, but this makes no sense at all. They could have come together publicly directly on eBay as well, because there is always the option to answer openly to questions asked about the auction...

Have you ever seen this kind of "question" on eBay?

Quote:
I'm bidding on it. I'm seriously interested and I don't like bidding wars so I kindly ask the fellows here to disclose who is interested so that we can discuss a strategy, at least amongst us.

That is bid rigging, plain and simple. If eBay finds it here and so decides, both seller and bidder(s) would and should be banned from doing further business there. Read their rules and then you decide if it makes sense to post such discussions on the Internet.

I think the difference in the way we see this issue is caused by the significantly higher number of lawyers here in the US ;-)


#71

I don't think eBay cares. I'm sure these discussions are widespread on the Net in many special interest groups whenever a rare item shows up. Does eBay forbid public discussions between bidders and sellers? I guess they simply can't legally do so.

#72

Hello!

Quote:
Have you ever seen this kind of "question" on eBay?

I have seen all kinds of questions on eBay. My most favorite as a seller (I don't sell a lot, so don't get asked many questions) was: "Could you please cancel this auction and re-list it for 1 Euro so that I have a chance at winning the auction?" Really! No kidding!

Quote:
If eBay finds it here and so decides, both seller and bidder(s) would and should be banned from doing further business there.

Haha! Have you ever been cheated by someone on eBay? Never gotten your merchandise or got something completely different, and complained? They couldn't care less. Sorry, you didn't use PayPal, we can't help you. Sorry, your four weeks period for complaints has just expired, we can't help you. Sorry, the seller dosen't answer our emails either, we can't help you...

Anyway, the original post was not addressed to the seller in any way, nor was it addressed to the eBay-community. Just to his collector friends on this specific forum (who are generally not interested in Ti-products anyway.) I can see no violation of eBay rules here!

Regards,
Max

Edited: 29 Apr 2012, 3:47 p.m.


#73

Quote:
I can see no violation of eBay rules here!

Wow. The great and mighty Oz has spoken.

I have once again been shown why I should simply keep my mouth shut about anything eBay.


#74

Hello!

Quote:
Wow. The great and mighty Oz has spoken.

????? I have a different opinion than you. Where's the problem? Why answer like that?

Quote:
... I should simply keep my mouth shut ....

Maybe.

Best regards,
The mighty Oz

#75

Marcus, it seems to me you haven't bid on this yet, right? I don't see your ID masked out on the bidder list, in any event. I see the current price is about $900 with 5 days left.

If you just want to avoid a bidding war by posting here, I don't think you can reasonably achieve that. I would say it is rather unlikely that members of this forum would bid huge amounts for any item, especially a TI item. If there is a bidding war on this auction, I'd say it's about a 99% chance it will involve someone not on this forum, and you are powerless to stop it.

In general, if you really want an item on Ebay it is counter-productive to advertise that fact before the auction closes. Your best bet, as others have suggested, is to bid in the final seconds with your absolute highest-possible price, and you either win or lose. That's what I always do, and I win some and I lose some but I never pay more than what I think something is worth, to me anyhow.


#76

Quote:
Marcus, it seems to me you haven't bid on this yet, right? I don't see your ID masked out on the bidder list, in any event. I see the current price is about $900 with 5 days left.

If you see carefully you can find all the ID of the bidders though their scores..........check it better....but, does it matter?

#77

Marcus, if I may ask...Since the 88 is a very significant part of TI's calculator history, and it's even more rare since it was never introduced, I'd think Jörg would want to keep that in his museum. Just wondering, shouldn't he have kept it in his museum?

Edited: 2 May 2012, 10:52 p.m.


#78

Maybe he found a second one :-)

- Pauli


#79

Hope so. Be a shame if the museum had only pics of it to show on the web.

#80

Hey for those that miss out, my TI-81 is still on ebay for only $0.99 with 12 hours to go!! It's Fully boxed with everything!! Well aren't all TI's the same? ;)


#81

Just an ordinary TI-81? It's the details that make the difference:

Enjoy,

Joerg


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