Re: 33s, 35s or 15cLE--which to buy?

[Eddie W. Shore]

Once you get used to the keyboard codes, it gets easier. The SST key in Run mode is the debug key.

[Jan]

I know. I had not been using my old 15C for years but when I started with the 15C LE for daily use right after purchase it all came back very easily: 36 => ENTER, 44 => STO, 45 =>RCL, 11 => sqrt, 12 => exp(x), 42.21.xx => f LBL xx, 43 32 => RTN etc. No problem.

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

Acceptable in the Seventies, unbearable in 2012.

[Don Shepherd]

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Acceptable in the Seventies, unbearable in 2012.

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Similar to how we corrected errors in our BASIC programs on the old ASR-33 teletypes: retype the entire line, including line number, correctly, this time.

[Bart (UK)]

Ugh, now I had a horrible flash-back of EDLIN in the early DOS days :-)

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

Eheheh... I was tempted to bring out EDLIN myself! :)
I found out that there exist a 64bit version of it, nevertheless! :)

[Jan]

Unless, you have the skills to deal with it.

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

This has nothing to do with skills, you simply can't hope to issue such a calculator interface *today* and hope it to be a hit. 12C users don't count since very few of them program it anyway.

Since the invention of alfanumeric LCD displays there's no excuse not to use a better mnemonic paradigm... especially given the 15C LE price.

You can find it second nature, revive fond memories, use your "finger memory" and the like (and I understand that) but supporting it _today_, well...

Of course we can always adapt to it, if we need to, but it is not my first choice.


Greetings,
Massimo

[Jan]

Of course we can always adapt to it, if we need to, but it is not my first choice.

Well, the 15C LE is my 1st choice over the mush keys of the 35S and it's ridiculously low speed (this is 2012 after all), it's minussign moved upwards (who "invents" something like that anyway?), the need to specify not only the label but also the line-numbers when calling or writing a program, the absence of complex capabilities deserving to be called such, the cluttered keyboard due to the presence of functions one never uses, the clumsy menus, the discomfort of the form-factor, the poor (alphanumeric) display.

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

Actually the only choice today, given the current offer, is DIY: buy a 30B and turn it into a 34S.

Inexpensive, *fast*, excellent support, no landscape form factor, lotsa functions... yes the display is not so brilliant, but not limited to only 7 segments.

Massimo

P.S. I wouldn't mention superior key action regarding the re-release of 15C... many had to dismantle their units to help some keys to register.

Edited: 27 Feb 2012, 3:21 p.m.

[Jan]

P.S. I wouldn't mention superior key action regarding the re-release of 15C... many had to dismantle their units to help some keys to register.

Those problems seem to have been fixed now. The keyboard of the 15C LE is actually quite fine. Keypresses feel even better than on the original 15C (materials used are a bit cheeper though but are far less giving an aura of cheepness than on the 35S). Btw, the 35S had massive key-issues as well shortly after it had been released.

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

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Keypresses feel even better than on the original 15C

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Personal taste: I prefer the original, shorter - softer keypress action vs the harder LE one.

Massimo

[Bart (UK)]

Hi Jan,

I disagree with some points you made:

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the mush keys of the 35S

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Still better than Casio & Sharp counterparts

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it's ridiculously low speed

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OK, I agree on this point - they should have used a better processor

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the need to specify not only the label but also the line-numbers when calling or writing a program

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No,

• a program can be called just by it's label, e.g. XEQ A ENTER will start at A001
  
• being able to specify specific line numbers is useful when you want to start at a specific point in a program (e.g. this POL<>RECT program) and allows for more compact programming
  
• When writing you just specify the label, the numbering occurs automatically
  
• being able to GTO specific line numbers again allows for more compact programming and calls to sub-routines of programs with different labels

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the absence of complex capabilities

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to flog a dead horse (i.e. it has been repeatedly mentioned on this forum) - this calculator comes from the 32S lineage which has never purported to have advanced complex functions. That said it's complex functions still rival many of it's more advanced competitors (see my rant on the EL-9900) and I find entering complex numbers more intuitive than on the 42S and 15C. It has enough complex capability to easily expand on using programs.

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the cluttered keyboard due to the presence of functions one never uses

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You may not use them, but others might. It was designed for a wider audience than just yourself.

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the clumsy menus

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I like the fact that I can access menu items using the shotcut of the item numbers (e.g. clear stack -> RS CLEAR 5) instead of scrolling for items not on the fist menu page (as on the 42S).

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the discomfort of the form-factor, the poor (alphanumeric) display.

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Here my opinion disagrees with your opinion.


Note: this is just my defense of (an admittedly somewhat buggy) but in my opinion a quite capable calculator.

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

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the need to specify not only the label but also the line-numbers when calling or writing a program

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No,

a program can be called just by it's label, e.g. XEQ A ENTER will start at A001

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Cumbersome still. Three keystrokes to invoke a program? Since XEQ stands for "execute", XEQ A is a complete sentence already. That's something like adding a fourth command to the classical sequence "Ready, aim, fire!"

[Bart (UK)]

What's an extra ENTER? (Actually it is "Ready, aim, fire" whereas you've been spoilt by the "aim, fire" being one keystroke ;-)
I think this is an acceptable compromise to be able to start anywhere in a program, particularly with 30k RAM and only 26 labaels.

In contrast to this the 35s menu's are "quickfire" where if you know the menu item number, you can access it without it being on the displayed "page" (e.g. rectangular co-ordinate display: LeftShift DISPLAY 9, and polar co-ordinate display: LeftShift DISPLAY .0). On the 42s and RPL calculators you have to scroll to access menu items not in the first 6 - no such shortcuts.

Win some, loose some...

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

You may not agree, but I would have thought of including a prefix to avoid immediate execution, like [XEQ] [.] [A] [1] [2] [3]. This requires one extra keystroke, but since it is used mostly in programs, no problem. Thus the 26 more convenient 2-keystroke sequence for invoking programs would have been preserved. BTW, what happened to the HP-35s development team? Have all been fired? :-) (Searching for an explanation why easy-to-fix bugs haven't been addressed yet).

[Marcus von Cube, Germany]

Programming was outsourced. The specification of several 100 pages had been created by HP beforehand. The result is what can be expected from an "designed by committee, made by an uninspired workforce" approach. No one is really committed to the project, everybody is barely doing his job.

[Gerson W. Barbosa]

Reminds me the story of the three bricklayers.

[Jan]

Cumbersome still. Three keystrokes to invoke a program

That's exactly my point.

[Jan]

Still better than Casio & Sharp counterparts

Bart, this forum is about HP-calculators and intended for HP-calculator enthousiasts (like yourself I guess). Did we ever in the past take Casio or Sharp as a reference? It's almost blasphemous (joking).

With repsect to the complex capabilities of the 35S: I know the 35S is actually a descendant of the 32S. But having a 32SII myself I was never satisfied with the complex capabilities of that machine either. And for those who really need complex capabilities the choice between the 15C LE and the 35S (which is what this thread is about) is not a difficult one: the 15C LE.

Anyway, the 15C LE is my personal choice.

[Bart (UK)]

Casio and Sharp keys have been mentioned here. OK, shall I say better than the frozen-hamster-butt-blue 49g?

I must say that as far as complex number capabilities go, the higher end HP's are much better than their japanese counterparts. The 15C and 42S are definitely better equipped (not to mention the RPL series). E.g. Sharp's top-of-the-range EL-9900, if I may be as blasphemous to mention it :-), has complex number abilities comparable to the HP-35s, and their "high end" non-graphing calc (EL-W506 or EL-W516 depending on country) can only do four banger type stuff with complex numbers.

The 15C might be better with complex numbers, but it does not have base conversion (as far as I recall).

So, again, it is dependent on personal choice and personal requirement. I sometimes think the 35s in unduly criticized more because it doesn't meet someone's wish list, rather than the actual bugs (many of which I agree HP should have fixed by now).

By the way, whereabouts in the Netherlands do you live? I sometimes visit family near Hoogeveen.

[Jan]

Well, with the 49G as a reference I would indeed prefer the 35S. Btw, I live in the south of The Netherlands, Hoogeveen is quite a distance from here.

[Bart (UK)]

I drive through there when I go via the Eurotunnel (other times I take the ferry to Hoek-van-Holland).

[Paulo MO]

Keep in mind, however, that codes are not random, but simply the "matrix indices" of the key in the keyboard. You said you wanted a mnemonic, right? What could be better for a scientific calculator than the row/column index of the key? :-)

Paulo

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

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Keep in mind, however, that codes are not random, but simply the "matrix indices" of the key in the keyboard. You said you wanted a mnemonic, right? What could be better for a scientific calculator than the row/column index of the key? :-)

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WOW! Really?!? Thanks for pointing that out. ;)

Again: plain lame as of today.

Massimo

[Paulo MO]

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WOW! Really?!? Thanks for pointing that out. ;)

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Just a small piece of wisdom: a smile at the end of a phrase does not transform "unpolite" into "funny and totally ok".

Sorry for presuming that you might be overlooking the relevance of some fact. My bad, of course.

Paulo

[Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)]

Hey, cool down Paulo: I can't see anything unpolite or offensive in my reply. However I'm sorry if I've hurted you. I beg your pardon.

Just thought that the keycode mapping was common knowledge.
Then I answered your smiley with mine...

Greetings,
Massimo