How many HP-15C will we buy?



#2

I mean, the forum. I only "got" one, as I promised a few years back to "bring it back" petition.


#3

I just preordered 2. I think I said I'd buy three on the petition. Oops! Keith

#4

None or one.

Edit: Just preordered one.

Edited: 26 July 2011, 7:27 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#5

One pre-ordered at this time.
Joel Setton


#6

Where are you pre-ordering from? HP or a third party?

I was wondering if these were available for pre-order in the UK but haven't seen any sign of them yet.


#7

Samson Cables are taking pre-orders and ship to the UK:
http://www.samsoncables.com/catalog/prodDetail.cfm?Prod_ID=434&Sku=HP15C

It'll cost you ~£90.50 in total to get to the UK via the cheapest shipping option (breakdown using current pricing and exchange rates which will likely be different by the time it ships and is charged to your account/card).

Edited: 26 July 2011, 8:12 a.m.

#8

I'll buy one for sure (and I didn't sign the petition so I'll even out Keith :)
If it turns out to be a really limited run, I'll buy two immediately, and keep one "safe and clean" while using the other. If it's a longer run, maybe one will do for now.
When will we know the actual number of units produced?

Cristian


#9

Quote:
I'll buy one for sure (and I didn't sign the petition so I'll even out Keith :)
If it turns out to be a really limited run, I'll buy two immediately, and keep one "safe and clean" while using the other. If it's a longer run, maybe one will do for now.
When will we know the actual number of units produced?

We already know, it's in another thread.
10,000 units are being produced, so claims an official dealer.

Dave.


#10

I wonder if the serial # will be engraved :-) or paste-on bits of paper :-(

it does matter to me that it should be the former.


#11

Laser-etched, I read somewhere. Pre-ordered two units as signed on the petition.

#12

Quote:


We already know, it's in another thread.
10,000 units are being produced, so claims an official dealer.


Hi Dave,
I had seen that quote, but I didn't know it was official. It sounded to me more like speculation.
If it's 10.000, well then I'll buy two immediately! :)
Incidentally, this would also mean that they're unlikely to be found used on TAS for $20...

Cristian


#13

In fact I was thinking quite the opposite. I was thinking that with only 10,000 units some TAS sellers may hoard if they are tracking this and try to make a killing when all supply is gone.

Cheers.

#14

One pre-ordered - will see how it stands up against the 41CL :-)

#15

Hello!

None for now. Later, when they can be found on eBay for less than 20 Euros, one for the sake of collecting. Same as with with the real 15C. Real calculators have red displays and glow in the dark.

Regards, max

#16

3 as I said in the petition many tears ago.

#17

A while back, I was looking at the petition and I was surprised by the ~6/person average. I wrote to the webmaster, Chris W, asking if he could send the counts from his database, and he replied very quickly with the result as of that date (May 11, 2011). I've posted the table from him on google docs, if you'd like to take a look.

-Jonathan


#18

Very interesting. Some of these are obviously dealers since I can't think of anyone that would want 5,000 for personal use. This of course means that the web site results are skewed since many of these will be resold (presumably).


#19

Quote:
Very interesting. Some of these are obviously dealers since I can't think of anyone that would want 5,000 for personal use.

And the 18 people who wanted exactly 997? That's why I made a cumulative column, as eventually the numbers might not be reliable. Personally, past 5 I'm not so sure, but that still makes for >20000.

-Jonathan

Edited: 26 July 2011, 11:47 p.m.

#20

Just one pre-ordered at Sampson. I expect HP will be handing them out to HHC attendees...well, I hope they will.

#21

I ordered 10,000 of them last year directly from HP. I will be selling them at 200 USd each. Contact me at hoax.st.com for details!

;-)

okay, just one!

Geoff


#22

LOL, great posting! :-)


#23

;-)

#24

I just ordered one.


#25

why is it being produced with the thin li batteries rather than the older button type which last for a longer time- my 11c is still is still goingstong on 3 yr old batteries, Howard


#26

Quote:
why is it being produced with the thin li batteries rather than the older button type which last for a longer time- my 11c is still is still goingstong on 3 yr old batteries, Howard

Because it's a completely new processor architecture that uses an ARM processing running an emulator.

This means it has to run at a higher frequency than the old processor, and hence consumes more power.

And if it's still like the original 20B design then the processor runs in bursts of 30MHz when it does something (e.g. key press, processing or whatever).

This makes it MUCH faster than the original 15C, at the expense of a drastic reduction in battery life.

If the new 15C does that, then it would be a very poor design decision IMO.

I talked about this way back in an old blog:

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/04/16/eevblog-4-low-power-calculator-design-and-fpgas/

Cyrille (the HP calc designer) said at the time:

Quote:
I will try to make things better to only going to high speed when doing calculations that I know are likely to be slow in the future…

They probably could have used button cells if they really optimised the power consumption, but CR2032 cells are a much more sensible choice IMO.

Dave.


#27

The way it works on the 20/30b (currently), and the 10bII+ is that certain keys and operations kick the speed up high when intense calculations are possible, while it normally cruises along at a minimal speed.

In the case of the 10bII+, this means the best fit stat operation, inverse student, the IRR key, the NPV key, and the I key. If the operation takes more than 200 iterations to complete, the speed is also dropped again from the high speed.

Other than this, it cruises along at 2mhz normally when running, and shuts everything down except the screen and a keyboard interrupt between calculations. However, the power usage between 1, 2, and 15mhz really is not hugely significant (32mHz will definitely take a bite out of things though as above a certain level the chip loses efficiency quickly) . The screen, with the accompanying LCD driver, is the biggest consumer of power by far.

The biggest power saving is if you can drive the LCD without a regulator. The 12c and 10bII+ can use this (which is why there is no contrast adjustment, it is running directly from batteries) while on the 20/30 you can adjust the contrast. To support the higher pixel density it has to be regulated.

You will never get the same battery life as the original nuts. Chip designers just don't care much about super efficient battery life anymore. The biggest drain in devices now is the screen. This includes the atmel based calculators.

TW

Edited: 27 July 2011, 12:40 p.m.


#28

Quote:
Chip designers just don't care much about super efficient battery life anymore.

It's not so much that they don't care, but that it's not possible. With the much smaller lithography they are using in all fabs now, there is a lot more leakage of current that you just can't get around.

Eric


#29

Don't say it's not possible, it is possible, get machines with larger lithography for battery efficient chips. Apparently there exists an older technology that has an advantage in one parameter over the current ones, so why completely drop it?


#30

Quote:
Don't say it's not possible, it is possible, get machines with larger lithography for battery efficient chips. Apparently there exists an older technology that has an advantage in one parameter over the current ones, so why completely drop it?

It's not possible unless you want to front a billion dollars to build a fab. Sure, everything is technically possible, but from an engineer's perspective something can be impossible if you can't find someone to build it.

Eric


#31

If you want larger process geometry (lithography), you certainly don't need to spend a billion dollars building a fab. There are still plenty of 350, 250, and 180 nm fabs in operation churning out chips that don't need to be in sub-100 nm. There are even some 500 nm (0.5 micron) fabs running. The mask costs at 250 nm or larger are MUCH less than at 180 nm and smaller, so it is actually quite cost-effective to get chips made on a larger, low-leakage process.

You only have to spend billions of dollars when you're building new bleeding-edge fabs, which you obviously don't do when you want to make low-power chips for calculators and other low-end consumer electronics.

The tradeoff of using an older, larger process is that they don't run as fast, and you don't get as much on-chip memory. For any calculator other than a high-end graphing, that's not a problem.

I'm not sure what process geometry is used for the Atmel AT91SAM7L128 (used in the 10bii+, 12c, 20b, 30b), but it is almost certainly NOT being made in a sub-90nm process.

The Energy Micro EFM32G "Gecko" microcontrollers Richard Ottosen and I are using for our latest prototypes use an ARM Cortex-M3 core in a TSMC 180nm ULP (ultra-low-power) process, and can achieve under 1uA current in a low-power sleep mode with a 32kHz timer running, with 16KB of battery-backed internal SRAM (unlike the Atmel part, which only battery-backs 2KB).

In our prototype, my firmware is waking up at 100 Hz running on a 40kHz crystal, and we're seeing sleep current of around 10.1 uA. When we having it running at roughly 14 MHz (on an internal RC oscillator), we have a total current of around 7.2 mA, of which about 1.5 mA is from a character LCD module, so the microcontroller is only consuming about 5.5 mA. At that clock rate, we're seeing performance about 14x that of the HP-41C (or about 25x that of the original 12C/15C), and that is on a very unoptimized code base in debug mode, so I expect that we will eventually have much higher performance for the same clock frequency and current.


#32

Eric, these are interesting figures. I was thinking, the Atmel would consume only little power but having an active timer at such a low power rate is stunning. Would you mind measuring the current draw of an original 20b or 30b in different situations and likewise the 34S. I'm unable to measure to great accuracy what you have obviously done with your design.

#33

Quote:
You will never get the same battery life as the original nuts.

How would battery drain compare if the 10bII+ was to run at the same clock speed as the nuts?
#34

One - as promised in the "bring back the 15C" petition, but haven't ordered one, yet. I intend support a dedicated HP dealer as local to UK as possible - TheCalculatorStore (that's in the EU anyway - will we ever become the USE (United States of Europe)?).


#35

José from thecalulatorstore has already put me on the list for one. :-)

Edited: 27 July 2011, 10:04 a.m.


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