'New' HP10bii+



#2

Not sure if I missed something - quickly scanned forum and did not pick up any threads in recent posts - I noticed a new 10bii+ with added math capability and Breakeven and Probability :

http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/215348-215348-64232-20036-215349-5034296.html

I am sure I haven't seen this before- the keyboard layout is exact as latest model 10bii but with many more blue key functions including math. Can someone point me to thread where forum experts discussed this model - when was it launched?


#3

That's nice to see trig functions, Pi, etc in the revision!

How, if you don't mind revealing, did you discover this new revision? That link doesn't show a current part number, manual, or even that you can purchase it (quote: The product you selected is not available in HP's online store.)

Under the "old"/current HP10bii it says, "Out of stock / Please check back soon" so I bet they are cleared of stock and going to put that new one in it's place soon.


#4

Quote:
That's nice to see trig functions, Pi, etc in the revision!

I've always wondered why these have not been included in the HP-12C Platinum, since its code has been rewritten from scratch. The only trouble I see is backward compatibility with old 12C programs. For instance,

01-    42 9  f 9

would have to be replaced with

01-42, X, 9  f FIX 9

This would occur very rarely however to be a problem.

#5

Jim, please send me an email.

TW

#6

What do you want to know? Ask away.

A full review will be in the next HP Solve, due out shortly.

Great unit.

For 25 years, I have begged, pleaded, harassed, and begged some more for a financial calculator with at least trig and some other scientific features to allow college students to have one calculator that handled all of their classes.

The new 10bII+ is SO MUCH more than I ever dreamed would be available in an entry level machine. It is marvelous.

But, before anyone asks... No, it does not have RPN. :-(


#7

How about when will it be available to purchase? And how do you know this?

My birthday's coming up and this could be hint to my wife. ;-)

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 2:55 p.m.


#8

Should be available around May. Units are shipping, but takes that long to get places.

TW

#9

Jim,

Quote:
And how do you know this?

Gene is a contributor to the HP Solve newsletter. See his post above yours.
Quote:
A full review will be in the next HP Solve, due out shortly.

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 3:42 p.m.

#10

Which new unit? Do you mean this one?

Or perhaps the manual would be of more interest. Surely someone will recognize where most of the content for the sections on probability and advanced distributions came from. . . they were pulled from another HP manual.

TW

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 3:17 p.m.


#11

So, this does everything the existing / previous HP 10bII will do PLUS...

Depreciation

Bonds

Breakeven

Date calculations

6 regression models

Data editing abilities for cash flow and statistics. Data does not disappear into register sums like the 10bII or 12c approach does.

Trig and inverse in degrees or radians.

Hyperbolics (heh)

Single key permutations and combinations

Normal and inverse normal distribution. Students t distribution and inverse.

Selective clearing of just the bond, breakeven, TVM or cash flow data rather than having to clear the entire machine.

Algebraic hierarchy or chain calculation mode.

Parentheses!

As I said this is a really great machine.


#12

Almost seems like HP is competing with itself. If the keyboard is good, why do we need the 20b?

I still can't believe that with all this recent activity in financial, there is no new scientific on the horizon.


#13

Couple of thoughts.

!) The HP 10bII+ uses a different approach to the solution than the 20b/30b/TIBAII+ models. The HP 10bII+ is much more a function-per-key and uses few menus. The 20b/30b/TIBAII+ use menus/worksheets. Each have their advantages and disadvantages.

I know those tradeoffs well, having taught business math and stats to college students for 20 years.

2) The HP 20b has RPN. HP 10bII+ does not. The 20b function set is broader as well. More features on the 20b.


That said, the 10bII+ is a great little machine.


#14

Gene,

Quote:
I know those tradeoffs well, having taught business math and stats to college students for 20 years.

Are any of your course materials available online/download (besides all of your fabulous learning modules)? I wouldn't mind taking a bus. math or stats class that focuses on an HP calc. Or is that the cart before the horse?

Quote:
The HP 20b has RPN. HP 10bII+ does not. The 20b function set is broader as well. More features on the 20b.

Just curious. Why did you mention the 20b three times, and not the 30b? Is the 20b somehow superior to the 30b? I thought the 30b superseded the 20b. (I own neither, but would like to buy one or the other, if recommended).


Thanks.


#15

1) the materials are in my business math book still available :-) on amazon or Eric's hpcalc.org website.

2) The 30b is more expensive and in a somewhat different league with programming, etc. The real competitors for the college student $30-ish market are the 10bII, 10bII+ now, the 20b, and the TI BAII+ calculators.

#16

Quote:
Are any of your course materials available online/download (besides all of your fabulous learning modules)?

Not free, but here's a book.


#17

Hey Gene ... are you going to update "Quantitative Analysis for Business" as a fourth edition to include the fuller 10bii+ functionality? :-D

#18

Quote:
The HP 20b has RPN. HP 10bII+ does not.

Right. When I said "we," I meant "the world," not the members of this Forum. [;-)
#19

Gene,

Any idea why the 20b is only on the Business section of HP's "wonderful" website and not on the Home and Home Office part?

Surprisingly I had to google into the Business section to catch the 10bii+ and 20b - starting with hp.com didn't work out for me.

Cheers,

Joerg


#20

The HP website is riddle wrapped in an enigma carried by a black cat at midnight in a coal mine.

Seriously, it is often really messed up. What else can explain why the HP 17bII+ learning modules are the ones done back in 2003 and not the updated ones including several using the solver that were done in 2007.

Bizarre. Really. :-)

#21

Actually it is competing against TI. But, that is a good question about the 20b. I think it has a weird spot to fill between the 10bII+ and the 30b that may seem unnecessary. I wouldn't be surprised if the 20b is eventually discontinued. Then again, the 20b is still a good unit with an excellent function set. Additionally, it is the lowest priced RPN unit from HP.

Financial calculators are a huge business, also. My inkling is that HP is releasing this unit to be super competitive in the collegiate arena.

On another note, I've had a prerelease version of one of these for a while now and I will have to say that it is the nicest entry level financial calculator I have ever used. It is ridiculously feature-packed for its price (I think it is starting at $29.99). Given my experience with TI's - their products don't hold a candle to this amazing machine. It is extremely competitive with their offerings.

It is amazingly fast, as it uses the same ARM7 chip that the 30b uses.

The keys on the unit I received are absolutely fantastic. The aesthetics are really nice. It FEELS like a quality device. It is nice and light without feeling insubstantial. Ergonomics are good, too. Of course, anyone with the most recent version of the 10bII will have experienced that, as well. Really, this machine is just a function-extended version of the prior model.

Function-wise, it has a really strong set of statistical functions with two probability models and their inverses. It has 6 regressions and best fit. When I saw that this calculator had these things, my eyes almost popped out of my head.

There are some features it lacks, such as RPN, MIRR, and DUR, that I would have appreciated. However, not having these features is far from being a deal breaker. I will certainly recommend it to people who are going through business programs who don't have the need for something as advanced as the 30b.

All-in-all, either this or the 30b are the calculators I wish I had when I was going through my undergrad program. I think if the device is well marketed, it would result in A LOT of lost sales for TI in the financial calculator segment.

Like Gene, I am also happy to answer any questions regarding the 10bII+. Of course, the link to the manual that Tim posted should leave the reader fairly well informed.

Regards,

Mark

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 3:57 p.m.


#22

And, HP added all this functionality to the 10bII and did not break ANYTHING from the original 10bII.

All keystroke sequences that perform a valid function on the 10bII model still work. Nothing was broken.

That is a tremendous help to teachers and authors. Everything that worked last week on the 10bII still works perfectly on the new HP 10bII+.


#23

Exactly. They really did a superb job in designing this upgrade.

Mark

#24

Quote:
Given my experience with TI's - their products don't hold a candle to this amazing machine. It is extremely competitive with their offerings.

...

When I saw that this calculator had these things, my eyes almost popped out of my head.

...

I think if the device is well marketed, it would result in A LOT of lost sales for TI in the financial calculator segment.

Therein lies the problem, IMO. Does HP do any marketing, other than on their own websites?

#25

There are many marketing avenues. Word of mouth has been, in my experience, the best method of selling product.

However, I am pretty sure HP does do marketing by engaging educators and professionals that are likely to use calculators - and also subsequently have influence over their students' and peers' buying decisions. If they can get accounting, finance, and other business professors on board with these devices, I think they will see a huge upswing in sales.

Mark

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 4:54 p.m.

#26

Quote:
...I think it is starting at $29.99...

For only $20 more the excellent and grossly more capable HP 30b could be purchased. And that's assuming HP's non-discounted MSRP is the price to be paid. It's hard to understand the appeal or the point of the HP 10BII+ under that circumstance. I'd have thought that HP should be trying to thin the "b" herd.


#27

Mike,

You won't get an argument from me regarding the value of the 30b. I honestly think it is the best financial calculator ever made. I only paid $39 for mine from a dealer on Amazon. I got a great deal and it was essentially free to me since I used a gift card I got from a brother.

The 10bII+, on the other hand, doesn't just have a lower price. It also has a different operating paradigm. I can imagine that with discounts, it will go for a bit less than the MSRP from other retailers. The appeal of the 10bII+ is that it will work for any business major without having a lot of complication added. It hits a sweet spot for functionality and price that positions it much better than the TI BA II Plus. I would have loved to have had a calculator like the 10bII+ during my collegiate courses - especially stats, where I used a 20s.

Regards,

Mark

#28

Yippee!

Congratulations to HP, the calculator team, and Tim specifically for this new machine.

#29

What's under the hood? I haven't seen specs on CPU model, CPU speed, memory, etc..

The "Specifications" tab on its webpage at HP is inoperable.

Since it is coined a "+", is it as fast or faster than the "12c+"?

Will it soon be on the benchmark list?


#30

Since it is not programmable, there wont' be any loop of addition program tests to benchmark. :-)

Solving any pre-programmed function on the unit is essentially instantaneous with the exception of some tough inverse Students t distribution problems where it can take a second or two.

#31

What's under the hood is the same ARM processor used in the 20b, 30b and 12C+. It's extremely fast, same speed as the HP20b/HP30b as far as I can tell. Unless the final product has changed, it also has the same 6-pin programming port so this calculator too can be re-purposed. However, I don't know if HP is planning on making an SDK available so it might take some playing around to figure out the keyboard and LCD mapping.

-Katie


#32

No changes. It still has the serial connecter (no internal JTAG).

Basically, the keyboard/screen works the same on all the units. Same memory position for the screen buffer and the same calls for the keyboard reading. Once there is one project working on the platform, putting in others is actually quite simple.

TW

#33

How is the Keyboard feel? Smooshy like the HP 20b? or "clicker" like the 30b?

It looks like a great calculator, if it only offered RPN as an option......


#34

Clicky, like the existing 10bII and 30b.

Want RPN? there's the 30b which is more capable with programming and clicky keys or the 12c, etc. :-)


#35

Thanks Gene! I have the 30b.... I don't use it very much because of the Menus. I really don't like menu driven functions...

I prefer a one-key function type calculator. The size of the 10bii is great! That's why I find this one so attractive. I only wish it offered RPN.

I like to use the HP 12C and HP 35S at work....the 35S is little too big to carry around, so I end up using the 12C most of the time.

This is my collection: www.rinconcentral.com

I'll be adding this one to the collection... great looking calculator! Great job!

Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 6:42 p.m.


#36

Quote:
I have the 30b.... I don't use it very much because of the Menus. I really don't like menu driven functions...

That's the same reason I rarely am using my 30b as well, though I recognize it's power and appreciate what I can do with it, but I too like "one-key" functions and think this revised 10bii+ will be the one I settle into for financial and other work. (Though I may change my mind as I "fight" with it since it's not RPN)

I wish it had engineering notation instead of scientific ... ;-)


#37

Jim, remember that any function in a 30b menu can be assigned to any key (or shift+key or shift+hold+key, with a few exceptions), so you won't need to go through the menu to get it.

Don


#38

Exactly. Plus, if you want customized features that work a certain way, the 30b can do that too with key assignments. I have programmed quite a few features into my 30b that take advantage of the key assignments. They include a mod function, a combinatorial with repetition function, and a percentage change function that doesn't require a menu, amongst other things.

Regards,

Mark

#39

The 10bii+ is really excellent. It's easy to get used to with good key clicks, display visibility and function layout. While it's not RPN some of the function allow both algebraic and RPN-ish function entry. For example, you can use the date difference function as either:

date1
delta-days
date2
=

or

date1
INPUT
date2
delta-days

This won't work for basic arithmetic.

Gene left out that the factorial function is also gamma (x+1).
There's also a useful feature that allows you to recall the last result after press the '=' key, something like LASTx. The CF and Stat Data editor is unique and at first blush seems quirky but it works well.

-Katie


#40

Katie is correct, but I WAS trying to leave some things to be surprises in the review. :-)

Assuming HP Solve gets published any time soon.


#41

Sorry about that!

#42

Gerardo

You know, I seem to recall you having a complaint about this in a previous post. Your biggest problem was that the 30b didn't have a top level percentage change function. I am pretty sure I wrote a program for you that did this. In fact, I thought it was a really good program as it behaves exactly like top-level percentage change functions on other RPN models and takes very few lines.

Please look back in the old posts for my response. I really thought I was being helpful to you. Please don't hold it against me if I am a bit frustrated by your response.

Regards,

Mark


#43

Mark,

You are correct on the % change. You and Katie both wrote a program for % change. I entered it and it works wonderfuly. I have the program saved in case I have to re-enter it in the future.

I am not much of a programmer, so I am really thankful to you for it. I use it al the time.


#44

I'm glad you like it. For some reason, I was under the impression that it was overlooked or something since I didn't get a response to my original post.

You can also save 4 bytes of memory on my % change program by eliminating the message at the end. It will make the program 9 bytes with a checksum of 003. I just like adding the messages because it actually tells you what the function does when they are executed.

I was looking at Katie's program that you posted and I was a little confused by the entry. Something must have gotten lost in the copy and paste, or something.

The great thing about the programming function on the 30b is that you don't even have to be an adept programmer to use it. If you have a series of keystrokes that you follow to perform an operation, you just record those as you would enter them and then you can execute it later. I wasn't much of a programmer when I got the 30b. However, I love its customizability.

If you would like, I can post my combinatorial with repetition function (nCr Rept) and mod function programs here, too.

Regards,

Mark

#45

Mark: This is the solutions you gave me for % change for the 30b

Quote:
Here is a program I whipped up really quick to add a straight %Change function to the 30b.
I have it assigned as a Shift-hold to the percentage key. Use a high-numbered program space so you can keep the low numbered ones for processor-intensive programs.

When programming it, scroll up to start at line zero so you can assign the key. Press Shift-hold %

SH%

Swap

-

Ans (this is the same as Lastx)

/

1

0

0

*

You can enter a message on line 9 so your function is represented. I entered in [delta symbol] %

It takes 13 bytes and your checksum should be 050

To get it to work. Just enter in your old number first and the number it is changing to second, then hit shift-hold % to execute this function.

For example, what is the percentage change from 80 to 200?

80 Input 200 shift-hold %

Nine lines is all it takes - and now you can bring your 30b with you to work!

Cheers,

Mark


Edited: 8 Apr 2011, 11:33 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#46

Here is Katie’s solution for programming % change on the 30b:

%-change is really an interactive menu on the 30b. If you want the good old RPN way of doing it you need to write a little program and assign that program to the '%' key.

I do this (assuming you're in RPN mode)


Enter program mode by pressing SHIFT Keypad. Choose a program slot (0 is the default) and press INPUT. Then enter the following steps. (You'll need to press the up arrow to get to line 0.)

0 % ; line zero is the (optional) key assignment location

1 ) Swap ; this is just swap but shows the ')' too

2 -

3 ANS ; same as LASTx in RPN mode

4 /

5 1

6 0

7 0

8 x

9 Stop ; (This is SHIFT-HOLD RCL)

Press SHIFT Keypad again and you'll see: 10.126 (10 bytes used, checksum = 126)


Use the above program like you would %-change on most HP RPN calculators:


4 INPUT 5 %


and you'll see: 25


-Katie

#47

OMG, another calculator to spend money on.

Hello, I'm a calcuholic.

erturk

#48

This calculator looks like a winner, and in my opinion, it looks way better than the TI BAII+ Professional. Is there any chance we can order the new 10bII+ online now? (why not the HP 11b?). If not, office stores and my university bookstore will be getting some visits from me.


#49

HP 11b?


#50

Well, if it were RPN, 10b2+ would result in a 12b. [;-)


#51

I get '10b+2' :-)

#52

Is the meaning of the "C" designation one that originated with the HP-25C for "continuous memory" (CMOS) or was it because of the whole landscape "compact" calculator series (10, 11, 12, 15, 16)?

I can see the "B" designation meaning "business", the "S" meaning scientific, and maybe the "E" for engineering (?) but even that would have been used inconsistently.

I know this is somewhat unrelated to mathematically converting a '10b2+' <--looks RPNish or '10b+2' <--looks algebraic into a 12B.


#53

Jim,

Quote:
Is the meaning of the "C" designation one that originated with the HP-25C for "continuous memory" (CMOS) or was it because of the whole landscape "compact" calculator series (10, 11, 12, 15, 16)?

The first is correct. You can verify this looking at the pairs 33E/33C and 38E/38C. The rule of 'C' began with the 25C and ended with the 28C IIRC - the 12C is just a continuation of the old one. No idea what 'E' should mean then, maybe 'electronic'?

'S' and 'B' came up with the launch of the Pioneers. Before, there wasn't any easy separation of scientific and business models.

Walter

#54

It was suggested that 'E' stood for "economy" ;-)

Greetings,
Massimo


#55

Quote:
It was suggested that 'E' stood for "economy"

I distinctly remember hearing someone say at the time that the HP folks thought the "E" was "sexy". I am still scratching my head :-)

Jake

#56

Quote:
It was suggested that 'E' stood for "economy" ;-)

To all: If you haven't yet followed Massimo's link, do it. It's hilarious!

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