Voyager hp-15c logo gone missing..



#38

I just purchased a 15c which appears to have lost the
logo button somewhere between the seller and I..

Anyway I thought to create an aluminum replacement,
either cast or CNC engraved. To that end I'd really
like to work from a high resolution scan of a 15c
logo in pristine condition. A scan is preferable to
a digicam from an image linearity perspective, but
getting a reflective surface to render on a scanner
can be involved and beggars can't be choosy.

I did find this in the archives:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv016.cgi?read=108478

Which is certainly helpful but it is easier to work from
a image taken normal to the surface.

Alternatively I can create a mold from a "spare" 15c logo
to cast a replacement if anyone has suggestions where/how
to find one in reasonable shape. But that doesn't scale
too well for others who may also be in need of the same.
Assuming the replacement aluminum logo doesn't wander off
to the land of no return, it shouldn't suffer the wear out
of the chrome (painted) original. Sort of makes one wonder
why somebody hasn't surfaced selling these yet on EEEbay..


#39

If you do manage to reproduce the logo, I'd be interested in one for my 15c.

- Pauli

#40

Quote:
I'd really like to work from a high resolution scan of a 15c
logo in pristine condition. A scan is preferable to
a digicam..

Maybe not necessarily. Here is a 16c logo jpeg captured via
canon a630 digicam. The image barrelling lessens considerably
by backing off a bit. This was just a quick handheld attempt
so I needed to rotate the cockeyed image a tad in gimp which
resulted in some minor aliasing:

The relief on the surface of the icon recesses is enough
to catch the incident light and form a usable outline which
should work well -- assuming the prospective 15c logo is
pristine enough to still have a complete reflective surface.

Anyone with a museum quality 15c who would be willing to offer
a jpeg to the less fortunate? ;)

Thanks!


#41





#42

See:
http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/09/14/new-makerbot-cyclops-3d-scanner/
They make the scanners and printers. I assume that you have an unlimited toy budget.


#43

Quote:
See:
http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/09/14/new-makerbot-cyclops-3d-scanner/
They make the scanners and printers. I assume that you have an unlimited toy budget.

Sadly it isn't the budget which I hit as a limitation but
rather available time.

I know this thread must sound trite to some but the
glaring omission of the logo looks like hell against
the balance of the 15c which is in surprising good
condition.

#44

wow, if this is something easy for you to do, I would like to get a custom one done for a highly modded voyager project that I am doing.

anyway, looks like you got your photos

If you don't already know, the original badge is a hollow injection moulded piece, affixed with a piece of double-sided foam tape.


#45

Quote:
wow, if this is something easy for you to do, I would like to get a custom one done for a highly modded voyager project that I am doing.

It is essentially straightforward to do. Being "easy" is more
subjective but after rattling around with this for about a day
I can see three approaches:

1. Directly mill it from Al sheet. This can be via CNC or even
a one-off dremel in a pantograph following a hand cut template
fabricated in more relaxed dimensions.

2. Create a mold from an existing logo in either plaster or
thinned joint compound. Getting the master logo is likely the
rub but one could also be created from a softer material such
as delrin or even machinable wax. I think this has some merit
as the engraving operation potentially needs to be performed
only once and assuming the finished logo external perimeter is
also part of the casting the remaining work can be limited to
some minor dimensioning with a simple sand paper jig.

3. Chemically etch the pattern/relief. The familiar laser
toner transfer may work here. I'm concerned about undercut
etching particularly given a deep 0.2mm relief but some
simple experimentation might be worthwhile. FeCl eats Al
with spectacular aggression so it may be entertaining as well.
The artwork can be created with any suitable CAD/drawing tool.

Note you don't need particularly pristine cast/milled surfaces
initially in the logo. The relief is painted in flat black,
and when finishing the logo, its display surface will likely
be cut in abrasively to remove the surface paint overspray and
true it flat and parallel to the base. You can likely get a
mirror surface if that's what you're after. I'd probably leave
some brushed texture on it to hide the inevitable wear as it
projects beyond the bezel and is a magnet for scuffs and dings.
Then again the solid Al body isn't going to have anywhere near
the fragility of the original painted/plated ABS gem.

I'll get around to it at some point. I'll certainly create
a mechanical drawing and post it here. If others are inclined
to poke at it before I, please do share your results.

Quote:
If you don't already know, the original badge is a hollow injection moulded piece, affixed with a piece of double-sided foam tape.

Interesting. The new 15c casualty and my existing pristine 16c
seem to have remains of an RTV type compound on the body in the
perimeter of the logo. Would have dismissed it on the 15c alone
as a repair attempt. Dunno.

I still cannot understand why HP didn't put a little more thought
into this cosmetic Achilles Heel of the voyager series, given it
carries their logo. Even an Al die stamped version would have
been routine manufacturing back then IIRC.

BTW your mention of a "highly modded voyager" up there caught my
curiosity. Might you have a pointer or otherwise mind describing
what you've done?

Thanks!

Edited: 21 Sept 2010, 1:17 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#46

Quote:
BTW your mention of a "highly modded voyager" up there caught my curiosity. Might you have a pointer or otherwise mind describing what you've done?

Sure; a couple projects glommed together about a month back. I had often thought of making a 'cryptographic calculator', and since I always loved the Voyager's physical design, I decided to take a 12C, and re-brain it.

Its for fun mostly, but it will probably have 15 and 16 emulations in addition to my cryptographic functions. To add some baroqueness, I will probably put in a hardware RNG, an Atalla 8150 emulation, and a DUKPT PIN Pad.

Physically, I would like to anodize the bezel purple or blue, but I don't really know any local platers here. And I would love to have a logo, which I intended to be a 'dl' stylized like the 'hp', and the number 13C since there was never an HP13. A friend of mine will embroider the slip case, and another buddy should be able to silkscreen the plates and hopefully the keys too.

I'll be happy to send you my extracted 12C badge so you can do measurements, especially if you think you can produce about 5 of the 'dl 13C' badges ;). I can provide artwork for the logo.

I have been chronicling the project with a journal and photos, however I haven't made a web page for it. At this point I have totally broken down the unit (removed all the plates, etc), found a new display (which is non-ideal, alas, but I'll have to come back to finding a better one later), and am about ready to take the Dremel to the PCB to make room for the new LCD.


#47

Quote:
Sure; a couple projects glommed together about a month back. I had often thought of making a 'cryptographic calculator', and since I always loved the Voyager's physical design, I decided to take a 12C, and re-brain it.

That's generally how I wound up here. Having admired the
voyager's footprint but wanting to add features of personal
interest. The other dimension of insanity, considering to
manufacture a near form factor voyager replica, grew out of
my early shock, awe, and disgust of the auction prices for a 15c
specimen on EEEbay.

Quote:
I'll be happy to send you my extracted 12C badge so you can do measurements..

I have a 16c, a recent version 12c, and the sad void where
a logo used to be on the 15c. I've drawn preliminary
measurements for 15c artwork but it isn't yet complete. Note
the bezel void which accepts the logo measures a square 9.4mm
on the old voyagers but about 9.32mm on the new 12c.

Quote:
At this point I have totally broken down the unit (removed all the plates, etc), found a new display (which is non-ideal, alas, but I'll have to come back to finding a better one later), and am about ready to take the Dremel to the PCB to make room for the new LCD.

The display is the royal PITA here. While the dumbed-down
7 segment voyager display seems a little dated, it does the job
and the lower multiplex ratio yields superior contrast compared
even to the 4:1 ratio of later voyager lcds. But you won't
find anything close to a usable numeric lcd off the shelf.

So I looked at matrix character displays (yawn) as well as lower
resolution graphic modules (122x32) which conceptually should
work for main numeric + annunciators. But the contrast isn't
anywhere near equivalent due to the higher multiplex rate.
The power consumption is horrid due to use of relatively high
current resistive dividers in the voltage ladder, and most are
transreflective to accommodate backlighting which isn't needed
here and further worsens contrast.

The best compromise I found was a 16 character x 2 line character
reflective display, where I removed the low impedance resistive
divider, replacing it with a 1000x higher impedance divider
buffered by ultra low current opamps. Doing so I was able to
tame the display on+idle current under 100uA IIRC. The modern
12c has an entire system idle current (which admittedly is mostly
due to lcd scan) somewhere around 20uA (again IIRC).

Still in the end it is a character display and the UI needs
some massaging as interdigit "." and "," now consume a full
character position. And annunciators are going to be big and
ugly. Mechanically though it happens to bond the glass to
driver via a conductive heat seal tape connector which
minimizes z-axis bulk. Most off the shelf lcd modules with
integral driver use an elastomeric zebra strip to connect the
glass and driver pcb which requires a compression frame to
make the shebang work. That's likely why you wont find anything
resembling a commercial display module in any mass produced
calculator.


#48

Haha, well, you clearly know your stuff. My approach in this project is to make it work at the expense of making it be the thing I would ultimately dream it to be. You will puke when you see my LCD compromise. I think I know of the driver-on-glass unit you mention -- works great for thickness but will cut into the keyboard according to my measurements.

Anyway, you inspired me to stick what I have done on the web here:
daves ridiculous calculator
This is essentially cut-and-paste from my Word file with which I am journaling. Up to this point I have merely disassembled and selected components. Now I am getting into the real surgery... And codeing... (codeine?)


#49

Quote:
You will puke when you see my LCD compromise.

There really isn't any happy compromise between off the
shelf stuff which was never designed for the requirements
of a calculator or paying for cu$tom lcd glass. I'll bet
if one located the manufacturer producing the display glass
used in the new voyager 12c it might be pretty cheap to
acquire a small sample lot. Well, unless HP has their head
in a vise contractually which it may.

You mention interest in a 24 character display. There is a
24 char x 1 line Wintek lcd which has been around in surplus
for quite some time and although wider than the voyager display
aperture can be made to fit. The downside it the controller
drive is configured to operate from 5V only (yet the controller
logic is characterized down to 2.4v). The good news is you
can talk to it via i2c.

Quote:
Anyway, you inspired me to stick what I have done on the web here:

Huh. I didn't realize the displays of old 12c models used a
zebra + compression frame. The new 12c uses a 30 conductor heat seal tape with the funky anisotropic conductive compound.

Quote:
daves ridiculous calculator

This is very useful information. Thanks for sharing it.

There seems to be a common need between restoration/repurposing
(here) voyager key legend and bottom panel bezels, and simply
making legend bezels for completely original work.

Given the level of commodity color inkjet and laser printing
the technology is certainly in place. What is needed is a
durable means to wrap it up for use generating legend bezels.
Printable plastic film exists which could be overlaid with
a second protective lamination layer. The result could be
machined in whatever form is needed. The only issue is how
well the resulting lamination joint would be such that it was
sealed against contamination, moisture, delamination, etc..

Restoration purists may scorn the notion of replacing an
original Al bezel with a plastic laminate. But it would
certainly be far more abrasion resistant than the original
and the fact one can print/machine replacements as needed
makes me get over that real quick.


#50

Quote:
Restoration purists may scorn the notion of replacing an original Al bezel with a plastic laminate. But it would certainly be far more abrasion resistant than the original and the fact one can print/machine replacements as needed makes me get over that real quick.

Yes, and since I'm not restoring, it doesn't matter to me. The brushed Al faceplate is also the bane of the unit's cosmetics over time. Steel would probably have stood up better.

Will have to look at the Wintek display; if it fits, that might be even better than the Hantronix I found.

#51

Quote:
Anyway, you inspired me to stick what I have done on the
web here:
daves ridiculous calculator

If you still have access to the innards, could you put a
caliper on the upper case body heat stake posts and get a
diameter measurement? I believe they are 1.6mm (62.5mils
for those of us still stuck in the stone age). Unsure
about the diameter of the mating holes in the PCB but they
appear to give a healthy clearance (~84mils) and are
probably easiest to measure using a drill bit shank as a
gauge. I'm thinking to cobble together a jig for restoring
the stake length after pcb extraction such that they can be
(re)set similar to that used during manufacture.

Thanks!


#52

confirmed on stakes.
My PCB has holes approx 70 mil -- tighter than yours.


#53

Quote:
confirmed on stakes.
My PCB has holes approx 70 mil -- tighter than yours.

That was my estimate of eyeballing the one odd stake which
appears unset during fabrication of every legacy voyager
I've seen thus far. It is in the north-east corner of the PCB
(as viewed from the bottom) and I took a guess at the PCB hole
with a caliper and jeweler's loupe. Could be manufacturing
variation or I may certainly be off. From that, it seems the
unseated stakes sat proud of the PCB by about 108mils to provide
the bulk of the head which were seated thermally AFAICT by a
concave spherical cap die.

One other question if you have the patient handy is the
diameter and vertical height of the snap domes at rest?
I've measured the actuation forces of the 15/16/12C units
here which average ~150gm. The latest ARM7 12Cs have a more
distinct tactile action by comparison. Circular snap domes
were used in the legacy voyagers which tend to have a softer
threshold action compared to the legged domes in the current
ARM7 12Cs. I believe the actuation force itself however was
comparable.

[Edited for clarity]


Edited: 6 Oct 2010, 12:33 p.m.


#54

fascinating on the 'unset stake'. all of mine were set fer shur (oh fur shur, I had to carve them all). this is a 1994 unit. If curious I can also check a 1988 12c and a 1984 11c.

Anyway, snapdisks.
d = 0.3590
h = 0.0170 (w/film)

unsolicited info:
PCB pad dia 0.3825
film thickness ~ 2.5mil (hard to measure and then there's glue)

Interesting about the newer 12c snapdisk design. I don't have any way of measuring the force.


#55

Quote:
fascinating on the 'unset stake'. all of mine were set fer shur (oh fur shur, I had to carve them all). this is a 1994 unit. If curious I can also check a 1988 12c and a 1984 11c.

Yea that unset stake seems to exist in all voyagers I've
inspected. The most recent of which is a 12C Malaysian mfg
unit with "99.11.10.1" hand written on the PCB, and shares
only the housing configuration with the earlier units. Seems
reasonable as there probably wasn't any reason to retool
molds for the case. This incidentally is the 3x LR44 cell
transient design with a single lqfp-80 package 1RR2
CPU/ROM/RAM/LCD controller: 4.5V and keyboard scan in,
LCD drive out. No bus to sniff nor drive so it isn't very
interesting beyond mechanical spare parts.

Quote:
Anyway, snapdisks.
d = 0.3590
h = 0.0170 (w/film)

Thanks. Looks like a 9mm dome might work. I'll put a
digital/dial gauge on a dome to measure deflection when
I free the board. But I expect that isn't critical.

Quote:
unsolicited info:
PCB pad dia 0.3825
film thickness ~ 2.5mil (hard to measure and then there's glue)

Besides the domes fatiguing there also is the issue of
the hard gold plating wearing due to scrubbing from
dome actuation. That's a bit more involved to repair
but I believe nickel plate should be possible and is
commonly used as a hard PCB contract treatment for
snap domes.

Quote:
Interesting about the newer 12c snapdisk design. I don't have any way of measuring the force.

I picked up a cheap digital jewelery scale back when I
was evaluating snap domes. Not the most exact measurement
technique but it far exceeds the end use variation in
actuation force between identical snap domes.
I found +/- 10% variation to be relatively common.
I believe to a user the width of the actuation threshold
is more noticeable than the actuation force itself (within
reason).

BTW on your retrofit, did you need alphanumeric capability or
could you have lived within the numeric + annunciator segment
constraints of existing LCD?

Thanks.


#56

Quote:
BTW on your retrofit, did you need alphanumeric capability or could you have lived within the numeric + annunciator segment constraints of existing LCD?

This project is just a lark for me, and so it's not really critical either way. Ultimately for me it's a balance of fun against aesthetics. Using the original display would look authentic, but I'd have to make an LCD driver, and then too the alpha capability gives me some functional richness.


Actually that reminds me -- I'm ready to do some dremmelling of the PCB now since I have (most) parts in...
#57

I have made logos for an 11c out of silver. There are a few extremely small differences, but I am getting better at casting.

Here is a link to my caveman initial attempt. My newer attempts are much more successful.

If anyone is interested in 11c logos, I have about five left from my newer batch.

For those interested in 15C logos, please send me an email at my registered email and we can discuss the details. I will need a high-quality model to create a mould from. I don't care if it has any metal on it, all black would work just fine.

Photos from initial run from a very POOR model.

EDIT: fixed the link

Edited: 20 Sept 2010, 11:28 a.m.


#58

Quote:
I have made logos for an 11c out of silver. There are a few extremely small differences, but I am getting better at casting.

Cool. That's near exactly where I was heading with my thought
to cast an aluminum version. I figured it was close to
crossing over into jewelery making.

Quote:
For those interested in 15C logos, please send me an email at my registered email and we can discuss the details. I will need a high-quality model to create a mould from. I don't care if it has any metal on it, all black would work just fine.

I've been looking for one. Unfortunately when available they
are typically attached to the rest of a hp-15c which I suppose
in the bigger picture isn't all that bad. ;)

Even if the logo has physical (vs. cosmetic) wear, to some entent
this can be carved out of the mold with some care. As you're
going to recut the top surface anyway it shouldn't be too
terribly critical.


#59

I would like to keep any surface work as minimal as possible; i.e., polishing off the paint. That is why I would really like to get the best model possible. That said, who ever were to give up a model logo would most certainly receive a replacement in silver for free.

Edit: removed idiot statements. [insert lop-sided grin here]

Edited: 20 Sept 2010, 10:39 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#60

How I'd love to stick one of these to the HP NonStop in our server room together with:
"My other computer is an HP-15C"

Best regards

Thomas

Edited: 20 Sept 2010, 3:12 p.m.

#61

Here is the latest batch from last night:

There are a few defects, but they look decent on the whole.


#62

Okay, this is not quite how I imagined it to go.

They are all gone save one. For all those who have them on the way, I will be painting and polishing tomorrow morning and should have them posted Thursday or Friday.

I believe I need to discuss any future work with HP. For some strange reason, the "HP" trademark might be important to folks in suits. Once I get this secured - and it may take a long time - I will let folks know. Until then, I will be looking 10C, 15C, and 16C logos in good dimensional condition, though the metallic surface can be worn to any state. If you have one for donation, I will replace yours with a silver one for free.

But I will hold off any further reproduction in the hopes of avoiding a cease and desist letter arriving at my post box.

(To whom it may concern, your request for an HP 13X logo is under consideration. Since the "HP" portion is still there, I have to take care of that issue first before I get my Pro-E guru working up a model.)


#63

Quote:
I believe I need to discuss any future work with HP. For some strange reason, the "HP" trademark might be important to folks in suits.

Considering the money they've dumped into grooming that
corporate logo, and more importantly their corresponding
investment in copyright and trademark protection for it,
they probably won't take too kindly to any revenue derived
from it without license.

Then again they may not care. You could claim to be offering
a restoration service and attempt to circumvent the issue
arguing you're maintaining the conservation of voyager logos,
by not adding to the number in circulation on the planet. A
fatigued ABS casualty arrives and a new logo is sent in its
place. But I'm not sure I'd want to spin that roulette wheel
against the litigation resources of HP.

Quote:
Once I get this secured - and it may take a long time - I will let folks know.

It can't do any harm to again hear of prospective customers
for this forgotten product line. As well as the extremes some
of the loyal following are willing go to restore the old units.

Quote:
But I will hold off any further reproduction in the hopes of avoiding a cease and desist letter arriving at my post box.

IANAL but it seems to me if I have an HP calc which is in
need of logo repair, there isn't any legal prohibition for
myself as the owner to restore it cosmetically including
creation of a logo. Dunno what that might mean if I sold
the unit but I'd hazard empirically HP won't give a hoot.
Outright selling their logo is where I'd get nervous.


#64

I expect that as long as you're increasing the value of their product, they should be happy. I have, on occasion, posted quotes from various books on forums, with exact enformation on the name and author of the book, the publisher, and where to buy the book, and although it could be seen as a copyright violation, I expect the owners are glad that I'm giving people a reason to buy the book, and they have never asked me to stop.


#65

I did draft a rather nice letter with the authorization already filled and waiting for their counsel's signature. But, after talking with one of our members who has great experience with HP, it seems this simply be a waste of a postage stamp... or a data string to an email address.

Regardless my choice to back off full scale production on a one-for-one basis, I have accidentally lost loads of them so far in the post office. I think I have lost another today, in fact.

#66

Just want to say this is one of those arcane threads that is wonderful! I can practically taste the silver casting for the 11c logo. All very cool!


#67

I completely agree.

(Send me a 15C logo and you can actually lick the real thing before you expoxy it to your beloved!)


#68

New definitions:

Expoxy - glue it on the outside.

Inpoxy - glue it on the inside.


#69

Yeah, yeah *grin*... add transpoxy to the list.


#70

You might also add/define Impoxy, Empoxy, Co-poxy, and then of course - the purely pejorative one: Poxy! (An epithet, used as the Brits use the term Bloody)...... ;o)

#71

And don't forget Sispoxy and Cispoxy depending on the context

#72

This Message was deleted. This empty message preserves the threading when a post with followup(s) is deleted. If all followups have been removed, the original poster may delete this post again to make this placeholder disappear.


#73

commissurotomotxy:
For putting the ol' corpus callosum back together.

no? okay, I didn't think so either.


#74

I think I went overboard. If only I had some epoxy, that liferail wouldn't have let go. Duh. did it again!


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