How about a poll to liven things up (some more!)



#21

The recent thread innocently started by Jonathan Eisch (Hecube, move over!) about Koss headphones and manufacturer responsiveness here has been so interesting, I propose a poll to see which general viewpoint about re-introduced 15c or improved 42s is shared by the most members on here, DaveJ's or Mike Morrow's.

Keep it simple. Just state "DaveJ", "Mike Morrow" or "none of the above" in your post.

I don't mean which calculator would be your preference, I mean who is more correct about the issues raised.

Not trying to inflame, I just think it would be fun. If either of the two of you object, let me know.

Anyone game?

Edited to add third choice.


Edited: 23 Oct 2009, 12:20 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#22

Dave J.

Sadly, I'm with Dave J. on this one (I WANT to be with Michael Morrow, though!).

A point I haven't yet seen raised is that programmable calcs are virtually extinct in the NA market - how else to explain the Casio fx-5800p and Sharp EL5250 not being available here? I think this is due to TI's amazing marketing of their graphing calcs... Of course, this overlooks the fact that OUTSIDE NA non-graphing scientific programmables are still popular.

#23

Quote:
Keep it simple. Just state "DaveJ" or "Mike Morrow" in your post.

It's not that simple. You should add a 3rd option. None of the above. And there is my vote.

In January 2006 I was still using my 15C and 48GX. I used them as programmables for work, and not just simple calculators. While in a customer meeting (where no electronics could enter and then leave the building) I was forced to do calculations with pen and paper. I made a mental note to learn the abacus and find a $10 disposable RPN. I assumed that they existed--I was wrong.

I'd never visited HP's or any other calculator site until January 2006. I was shocked. RPN was clearly on the way out. And the 49g+ and 33s were abysmal and not $10.

Martin, if you had asked this 3 years ago I would have answered different, but after witnessing the evolution and convergence of many consumer electronics I feel different. The 41CX, 15C, and 48GX were all home runs in their own right. Each offered something critical and relevant and bleeding edge at the time. I'd like to see HP spend their resources on that next home run.


#24

Quote:
a customer meeting (where no electronics could enter and then leave the building)

Wow, would you care to elaborate on what kind of customer that was - without all readers being obligated to never leave this forum and the Internet afterwards? ;-) I don't want you to reveal anything secret here, just a hint on the reason behind this policy.


Edited: 24 Oct 2009, 1:40 a.m.


#25

You have never experienced this? Lucky you.

My response to your question might be: ask no questions, hear no lies.

And don't assume it's government/military, many companies are edgy about their IP. Any electronic device is seen as possibly recording/collecting data. Just think what you could store on an 8GB micro-sd...

One of the most secure places I've been was the national control centre of an electricity transmission/distribution network.


#26

Quote:
Any electronic device is seen as possibly recording/collecting data.

Yep, that's the policy.

#27

Quote:
You have never experienced this?

No, I'm not in a profession that involves the possibility of that kind of theft.

Quote:
Any electronic device is seen as possibly recording/collecting data.


Quote:
Yep, that's the policy.

Meaning you can't take your watches in? Cellphones must obviously be banned. And guys with pacemakers or even hearing aids?


#28

I don't have a hearing aid or pacemaker and haven't worn a watch for 15 years, because I use my cellphone clock anyway.

I've had to hand in my car keys with remote though.

#29

Quote:
Meaning you can't take your watches in? Cellphones must obviously be banned. And guys with pacemakers or even hearing aids?

Watches, pacemakers, etc... are fine. Consumer electronics that have the ability to record are generally not allowed (computers, phones, camera, PDAs, etc...). A scientific calculator should not be an issue, but when judge, jury, and executioner is a security guard, why take the chance?
#30

Sounds like you need to find a new customer. Then again, if the pay is good...

#31

Neither one, although if forced to choose, I would go with Dave J.

The problem with this question is that the 42S is a programmer's calculator. Too many important functions are buried in menus for it to be a successful daily-use calc. That may be why the 32SII was more successful.

OTOH, the 15C is reasonably okay for daily use since everything is there on the keyboard.

So, IMHO, those who prefer the 42S are systematically different in the way they use calculators, and the ongoing contest we see here between champions of one over the other is a question that can never be resolved. As somebody said in the earlier thread, it's comparing chalk and cheese.

Edited: 23 Oct 2009, 12:13 p.m.


#32

I'm for Mike Morrow, and I think he was arguing for a next home run:

  • shirt-pocket size,
  • maximum utility (includes ergonomics) without programming,
  • programming as a secondary option, but seriously implemented,
  • could have a better display and some graphical (don't have to be big) educational features (on-board help?), although I think 42s is great for anyone with trigonometry,
  • rudimentary I/O - although programming is secondary, the large basic feature set will always need customisation, and making this aspect more robust is just part of current practice.
Richard
#33

None of the above.

Or rather both of the above.

DaveJ is probably right that HP is closer (easier path) to bringing a HP-15C+ to market, and so they should.

Hopefully they will find out this is economically viable and THEN proceed to bring out an HP-42S+ as well! It should also sell and be profitable for HP if done correctly. Maybe that's just wishfull thinking, but there you have it.


#34

Quote:
DaveJ is probably right that HP is closer (easier path) to bringing a HP-15C+ to market, and so they should.
An emulated 15C ist more like a 15C-. After so many years of professional use without encountering a single bug, reliablility is a key feature of this calculator. A new 15C has to start from zero in this respect.

A completely new scientific programmable is even more of a problem. The 35s has shown that HP doesn't have the menpower to write such firmware anymore. They are not even able to debug it! Yep, here it is, the successor to one of the most popular RPN machines, the 32S*, and it carries severe bugs since 2007. Unbelieveable.


#35

This is why when HP needed to reengineer the 12C (not the Platinum), to use a new processor, I strongly encouraged them to do it by simulation. Any other method of doing it with their limited resources would have introduced a lot of new bugs, some of which would have been critical. As it turns out, the new 12C did introduce a few bugs, but none of them are critical or affect the numerical results of calculations.

If they introduce a new 15C, it will almost certainly be using the same simulation approach as they've used for the 12C.

Some people here in the forums have said that they won't buy a 15C unless it has a lot of new features compared to the original. HP could do that if they really wanted to, but they would have to engineer this hypothetical enhanced 15C from scratch.

#36

I see no contradicting views but guess work which one will make it to the market earlier if at all. I'd rather see both calculators on the market again soon. I'd buy both.

#37

It seemed like they were arguing over matters of fact -- Which would sell more? Which would be easier to rerelease?

But as for my personal opinion, I think I'd rather see the 15C rereleased.

The 42S would fill a narrow, almost pointless niche. It would be more powerful than the 35s. But it would not be the most powerful HP calculator. That would still be the 50g. Over the 42S, the 50g has: A CAS, virtually unlimited storage space for variables and programs (with an SD card), easy connection to PC with USB... Heck, you can even power it with an AC adapter.

If I ever would be tempted to write an ambitious program for the 42S, I'd have to think, "Well, gee, will I just lose this someday, maybe when batteries die?"

On the other hand, for a basic number-cruncher, when the HP50g would be too much or not as convenient, it seems like the 15C would be a better choice. Like other people have said, to get at the 42s's functions, you have to go through menus, while the 15C is all on the keyboard. That's something I think is important for a number cruncher. (I kind of like "cluttered" keyboards -- even aesthetically. I like being able to just look at a calculator and tell how powerful it is.)

#38

Quote:
The recent thread innocently started by Jonathan Eisch (Hecube, move over!) about Koss headphones and manufacturer responsiveness here has been so interesting, I propose a poll to see which general viewpoint about re-introduced 15c or improved 42s is shared by the most members on here, DaveJ's or Mike Morrow's.

Keep it simple. Just state "DaveJ", "Mike Morrow" or "none of the above" in your post.

I don't mean which calculator would be your preference, I mean who is more correct about the issues raised.


Dave J! :->

We are mostly talking different things though. Mike is a 42S fanboy so wants to see the 42S reintroduced because it's the most powerful RPN calc ever made. Fair enough.

I'm arguing that the 42S is impractical to bring to market due to the development involved, and therefore the 15C is the only logical choice for HP with their limited resources, like it or not.

I guess the only point on which we are really arguing is over which would be most successful in the non-fanboy consumer market. On this point my argument is the lower price point, novel form factor, and more retro appeal of the 15C would trump the 42S in terms of number of units sold.

Actual margin and actual profit is harder to know, so I'm staying away from that one.

I deliberately did not mention functionality, because I think both have their silly old-style quirks that don't make them a good choice compared to modern machines. Good luck to HP if they try to sell a super-powerful programmable RPN machine with no way to save/store your programs, or a quirky limited 10 digit display scientific landscape calc.

Dave.

#39

Why either one? I would like to see something with the form factor of a 15C, the programability of the 41C, and a megabyte or so of storage.


#40

Quote:
Why either one?

Because, realistically, with HP's dwindling calculator resources, ROM simulated machines are quite a viable option in terms of time-to-market and development costs. Not to mention that HP have done market research in this areas and have started to release machines.

The 10C series platform exists in production with the new 12C, and the 42S platform exists in LCD and case design in 17BII+, all they need is a new hardware platform.

It's possible they may release both in due course.

Dave.


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