HP releases multiple emulators for PCs, iPhone, iPod touch



#2

Today, HP announced several virtual calculators that run on PCs or Apple's iPhone and iPod Touch. Photos and more info here in my blog.

Steve


#3

The fact that they have made a 15C emulator must surely point to a re-issue of the calculator coming out at some point. If it has the speed increase the new 12C has too, that should make for a very interesting machine! I suppose that if it is a completely strict emulator, there wont be any extra memory added.

If this does happen, there are going to be an awful lot of very happy people! Wonder how it would affect prices of original 15Cs?

Mark


#4

It seems possible to upgrade the 15C memory with little modifications to the original code as discussed some time ago on this forum:
Anyone interested in HP-15C memory upgrade?.

I would definitively be interested to buy a new 15C with the new 12C speed and more memory.

Btw, I've not found the new virtual calculators on hp.com.


Edited: 24 June 2009, 9:32 a.m.


#5

here

click on windows version

#6

Well, it was there one minute and gone the next.


#7

Hi Don,


Quote:
Well, it was there one minute and gone the next


And now it's back!!

Bill

#8

New 15c - a dream that would come true.

I would like to have a backlit two-line alpha display, more speed, simple on screen menus, unlimited stack, decent solver (with real editing functions), some extra bytes of memory and multiple character labels. Oh, a good database with unit-conversions would also be great. But then it wouldn´t be a classic anymore.

If ever, I don´t think HP will come out with a simple 15c "copy". There must be some more Hi-Fi about the new thing. My main concern is keyboard quality. Will HP (Kinpo) ever come out with decent keys? (decent = work still flawlessly after 6 month)

I/O support - certainly a dream only. HP needs to keep the thing fit for professional exams. And without this option there is no need for more than 8 KB or so. Who wants to re-enter 32 KB of code if batteries should fail?


#9

Doesn't all of what you want turn it into a completely new unit rather than a 15c? Just asking. . . ;-)

I don't think there have been people complaining about the KBs on the 12Cs sold in the past 5 years, have they?

TW


#10

Quote:
I don't think there have been people complaining about the KBs on the 12Cs sold in the past 5 years, have they?
This may be your secret wish;-)

Seriously, this could be due to the fact that most 12C users don't even know that this forum exists...

Apart from that: I also have a 12cp Anniversary, and like the normal 12cp, it misses key strokes (even the ON key) in a reproducable manner. I'm sure there were related posts here in the forum.

HTH

Raymond


#11

I have a CNA746xxxx 12C (classic, not platinum), and no keyboard complaints whatsoever. I bash it every day at work - it is not treated like a "collector's treasure".
A colleague has an eight years old 12C, and the keyboard is much worse (even with less use). I am not surprised about the number of complaints on 12C from this period.
The keys on the recent 12C are not an exact replica of 80s Voyager keys, but still they have a very positive click and no missed keystrokes. 12CP is another story... it doesn't miss keystrokes because of the keyboard, but firmware. ON key is especially infuriating.

#12

My guess would be that HP would do exactly a clone of the 15C - if they do re-issue the real thing.

The basic hardware components already exist in the new version of the 12C.

The software is already done for the emulator. They could modify this of course with some extras but to start enhancing it by modifying the original emulated code would be a potentially awkward and expensive proposition. To make a super 15C with all those extras might just be simpler to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.

So if HP keep things simple and use what they already have, it makes sense to me for them to release a pure 15C clone. An enhanced version with the extras you listed could actually form the basis of a completely new calc.

Mark

Quote:
New 15c - a dream that would come true.

I would like to have a backlit two-line alpha display, more speed, simple on screen menus, unlimited stack, decent solver (with real editing functions), some extra bytes of memory and multiple character labels. Oh, a good database with unit-conversions would also be great. But then it wouldn´t be a classic anymore.

If ever, I don´t think HP will come out with a simple 15c "copy". There must be some more Hi-Fi about the new thing. My main concern is keyboard quality. Will HP (Kinpo) ever come out with decent keys? (decent = work still flawlessly after 6 month)

I/O support - certainly a dream only. HP needs to keep the thing fit for professional exams. And without this option there is no need for more than 8 KB or so. Who wants to re-enter 32 KB of code if batteries should fail?


#13

Quote:
New 15c - a dream that would come true.

I would like to have a backlit two-line alpha display, more speed, simple on screen menus, unlimited stack, decent solver (with real editing functions), some extra bytes of memory and multiple character labels. Oh, a good database with unit-conversions would also be great. But then it wouldn´t be a classic anymore.

If ever, I don´t think HP will come out with a simple 15c "copy".


Wanna bet.

All the signs point toward a direct emulated copy of the 15C, just like the new ARM based 12C.

The hardware would be identical to the current 12C, only the faceplate is different. A new different 15C would require re-engineered hardware and a massive software effort, something HP likely don't really have the resources to dedicate on what would be a niche market machine.

A new "copy" of the original 15C would however be very simple (I bet you Cyrille already has one on his desk) and a no-brainer solution for a high margin niche retro market.

Dave.


#14

OK, be sure I will also buy a "simple" 15c clone. This old lady is after all still an attractive package for daily number crunching that won´t let you (me) down in 99,9% of all mathematical problems I can imagine to face during my entire professional career. The only thing I got used to that I realy would miss is a second line. Just to have more control over what happens on the stack.


#15

Quote:
OK, be sure I will also buy a "simple" 15c clone.

If you believe this site, there are at least 50,000 guaranteed sales for HP:

http://hp15c.org/

Dave.

#16

Quote:
The original HP 12c and HP 15c calculators were based on HP’s proprietary 4-bit Saturn calculator microprocessor


Tsk, tsk... ;-)

Greetings,
Massimo
#17

On the iPhone or iPod Touch, if you orient the phone/iPod vertically, you get a 4 function RPN calculator presented for the 12c, 12cp, and 15c. The 12c and 15c vertical formats are exactly the same except for the gold/silver color differences. The 12cp is different to allow for algebraic and a few other additions.

I use these all the time for simple math.


#18

That 12c (portrait) skin hurts my eyes. Looks like someone spent 20 minutes coloring over the lower button labels with MS Paint. (I wish HP would contact someone around here with graphic skills. Most would do it for nothing, knowing their work is out there among the masses).

And what's with the brushed aluminum plastic in the hp35s simulator? It looks ridiculous and it's distracting.

Virtual HP35s with bad skin.

(Image link stolen without permission from Mr. Liebson's article. Will remove upon complaint.)

Also stealing from Steve Liebson's blog, this quote:

Quote:
“We just felt that HP calculator emulators should really come from HP,” said HP’s Director of Calculator Product Development Sam Kim.

I agree with Mr. Kim. Emulators and simulators from HP is a cool proposition. But their software, in my opinion, needs to look better than amateur. In an organization that large, the software developer should not be responsible for creating the artwork. (I hope their graphic artist did not create these. And I suspect Marketing had a hand in that hp35s simulator skin).

IMHO,

PG

ps - Sorry for being harsh. Sometimes you have to be firm with those you care about (calculator division).


#19

Given that the image I pasted is fully 2X wider and taller than the actual image on the screen, you don't notice the graphics very much.

They are fine on the iPhone and touch.


#20

Well, I saved your image to my iPhone Camera Roll and had a look at it full screen (brightness set at ~50%). I agree it's a little better, but I am still not terribly impressed.

Btw, actually seeing it on the phone I realize they could have easily added another row or two of keys. But I won't go there...


#21

Some nice, high def pictures of a 12c and 15c would go a long way for improving the look. Send them to me at my gmail account if you have one (timwessman at gmail). I am sure there are plenty around. The big issue is just having consistent lighting and correct looking shadowing, so a nice selection for me to pick for my base would be appreciated. I didn't do the graphics for those 2 models unfortunately.

I will be updating the graphics when I get some time though, so those pictures would be appreciated.

TW

Edited: 24 June 2009, 2:13 p.m.


#22

Tim,

Here is an example of what I had in mind. A 3d model rendered with an orthographic camera. No time spent in Photoshop. All four were rendered within minutes of each other. I slightly adjusted the textures/lights for each shot, for different looks.












This calc has the fictional 15cg keyboard layout and multi-line lcd, so I would need to model a 15c and 12c if you are interested.

Thanks,

PG

edit: was three images, added one more.


Edited: 25 June 2009, 2:28 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#23

Do it!

-- Antonio

#24

Just checked iTunes store and they have the HP-12C from HP for 14.99 and the HP-15C for 29.99. Be interesting to see what the relative speed of each is. Also be intersting to know if they went outside or developed the emulation inside. Pricing is on the high side. I probally won't buy them.

The real question - Now that HP has released their emulations, will they be going after other people who have developed HP emulations and try to shut them down? I hope not.

Bill


#25

Running on a first generation iPhone.

Program is a counter: + then GTO 01. Stack has 1 in Y, Z and T and 0 in X.

60 second test counts to:

387,583.

Pretty quick, eh?


#26

Just tried the same speed test with the 42s RPN Calculator app

On the 1st gen iPhone - count = 1,785,502
On the 2nd gen touch - count = 2,468,953

Approximately 5 times faster at 1/6 the cost. I also think the 42s is vastly superior to the 12c or 15c. I hope HP does not go after or scare away the other HP calc apps on the app store.

Give the 42s a try, I think you will be pleased.

Quote:
Running on a first generation iPhone.

Program is a counter: + then GTO 01. Stack has 1 in Y, Z and T and 0 in X.

60 second test counts to:

387,583.

Pretty quick, eh?



#27

Hi Don. I agree that 42s is fast. I'm getting a result of 1.5 - 1.6 million on a 1st gen iPod Touch with version 2.2.1 OS and version 2 of 42s.

I've nevered owned a 42s and am enjoying learning of it's capabilities through 42s and Free42. So far, so good but I may need to buy a copy of the owner's manual from the museum.


Regards,


John


#28

Hi John,

I would certainly recommend getting the HP-42S manual from the museum, but if you just want to find out a bit more about the 42S without spending any money, you may also want to take a look at José Lauro Strapasson's alternative manual. It's at the Free42 web site, in the Documentation section, near the bottom of the page.


José's manual is pretty brief, only 33 pages, so it's no match for the excellent 358-page original, but nonetheless, it can be helpful for getting started with the 42S' niftiest features -- complex numbers, matrices, and the numerical solver and integrator.

- Thomas


#29

Thanks Thomas. The 42s is extremely powerful. Thus far, I've only scratched the surface. This will help.


Regards,


John

#30

Quote:
Just checked iTunes store and they have the HP-12C from HP for 14.99 and the HP-15C for 29.99. ...
Bill

Am I being stupid here, but why does it cost twice as much to run the HP-15C code under emulation than the HP-12C code ?


#31

Just have a look on the ....bay prices for a 12c and a 15c. Why shouldn´t HP have its share of this 15c demand? And time will tell them. If the turn over of the 15c emulator should be to low they always can lower the price.

Or (please let me be wrong) the emulator is a test case before they decide to launch a hardware-clone to the market. So everybody please buy the emulator ;-)


#32

Quote:
Or (please let me be wrong) the emulator is a test case before they decide to launch a hardware-clone to the market. So everybody please buy the emulator ;-)

There's no 15C emulator offered at the site the above link points to. I found a 35s emulator at 22,64 Euro. If that's the price for the 15C software too, I won't consider buying it.
#33

Quote:
Or (please let me be wrong) the emulator is a test case before they decide to launch a hardware-clone to the market. So everybody please buy the emulator ;-)


That's what's really worrying me : they will deem the demand for the HP-15C (physical remake) low due to low demand for the virtual machine.
As we all know the real thing is much more desirable and tactile.

Given I've already got a real HP-15C and a virtual HP-41CX, the price would have to be low to justify a virtual HP-15C.

However I would really like a second physical HP-15C to keep at home, and would be prepared to pay much more for that.

#34

Quote:
Just checked iTunes store and they have the HP-12C from HP for 14.99 and the HP-15C for 29.99.

Why the insane price difference?

I'm not familiar with iPhones apps, but isn't that very expensive for an iPhone app?

I wonder if Eric gets a royalty fee or took a one-off payment?

Dave.


#35

Quote:
Why the insane price difference?

Maybe it is an evil plan to attempt to demonstrate that there really isn't a market for a physical 15c.

- Pauli

#36

I was not directly involved in the development of HP's iPhone applications, and don't receive any payments of any kind from HP.

#37

No Windows version of the 15c :(

And where is MacOS? Should be easy given the iPhone versions are available.


#38

15C version? I have one. . .

Going from the windows version to an OSX version isn't trivial. The iphone versions were essentially rewritten from scratch. It is probably easier to go from iphone->OSX, but there is still a lot of work to get all the same features back in that are on the windows versions.

TW


#39

Porting between OS X and iPhone is actually pretty easy. I'm in the middle of porting my iPhone version of Free42 to OS X, and it's a breeze; comparable to porting code between Windows and Pocket PC. There are the obvious differences in the UI classes, but everything else is pretty much the same.

#40

No, I do not have a windows-only version, but if you have access from your PC to a host running IBM's VM - with all this ifs and buts I may help you. See here. Well, if you realy _do_ need it.

What I am still looking for: the ROM of the HP-10C as file.

Ciao.....Mike

#41

Does anybody know if these emulators run on WINE in Linux?

Thanks.


#42

Just tested with ubuntu 9.04, latest wine and no go. Not sure why thought. I thought it would. :-(

Tim Wessman


#43

Someone needs to do a speed/feature comparison review between the HP 15C emulator and the one that is already available for the iPhone/iTouch.

How do you guys think that they compare?


#44

Sure. Send me $50US.

#45

Thanks for doing the test.

I was afraid that would happens. I hope eventually someone figure out how to make it run under WINE for the Windows version.

Quan

#46

Does anyone know if the 12c emulator honors the "c" in 12c and keeps your programs intact between executions? As an educator, I already have the 12cp emulator, from a couple of years ago, and it does not. From HPs web site there is no way to determine this information. It would be nice if they described exactly what you are buying before you buy it. I'll wait and see.


#47

All memory remains intact when you close and open the program. Same on the 12cp emulator. I have no idea what it did years ago, but it works fine now.

TW


#48

OK, thanks Tim.

#49

Tim, the 12c Windows emulator does not execute programs correctly. Prime factor finder:

01 sto 0
02 2
03 sto 1
04 1
05 sto 2
06 rcl 0
07 rcl 1
08 /
09 frac
10 x=0
11 goto 13
12 goto 17
13 rcl 1
14 pse
15 sto / 0
16 goto 06
17 rcl 2
18 sto + 1
19 2
20 sto 2
21 rcl 0
22 rcl 1
23 enter
24 x
25 x <= y
26 goto 06
27 rcl 0
28 goto 00

Put 30 on stack and R/S. Should display 2, 3, 5 after pauses.

The emulator displays this:

01 44 0
r u n n
5.00

Not exactly a great launch.

Don Shepherd


#50

It works on my iPod Touch 2G with OS 3.0. It displays 2 3 5 as it should.


#51

Hmm. . .very strange. We are investigating and it will be fixed.

TW


#52

Thanks Tim. You da man!
Don


#53

There were two issues. First was the program as posted has a problem in one of the steps. Once that was fixed, it ran fine, but the display was not updating properly.

Turns out one of the optimizations to not update the screen when under 10ms was causing it.

TW

#54

hello
your program does not seem to work on a real 12C either...
but if you remove lines 23 and 24, it does...

however, it still does not work on the emulator... however, if you send me your email, I will send you an updated version where it does work!

01 sto 0
02 2
03 sto 1
04 1
05 sto 2
06 rcl 0
07 rcl 1
08 /
09 frac
10 x=0
11 goto 13
12 goto 17
13 rcl 1
14 pse
15 sto / 0
16 goto 06
17 rcl 2
18 sto + 1
19 2
20 sto 2
21 rcl 0
22 rcl 1
23 x <= y
24 goto 06
25 rcl 0
26 goto 00

regards, cyrille


#55

Cyrille and Tim, what's going on here? The program, as written and as listed, does indeed work. It works on a 12c from 8 years ago, it works on a 12cp 25th anniversary edition, it works on the new ARM-based 12c, and it works on the 12cp emulator that educators get. It works on all those machines. And another user pointed out above that it works on the iphone. The only place it doesn't work, is your new 12c emulator.

Please fix.

Don Shepherd


#56

I concur, it works for me too on all the real 12C's I've tried.

-Katie


#57

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I also tried it on my HP-25; I had to change

21 rcl 0
22 rcl 1
23 enter
24 x
25 x <= y

to

21 rcl 1
22 enter
23 x
24 rcl 0
25 x >= y

for obvious reasons.


The algorithm and the program are fine. Sounds like the emulator is not.

- Thomas


#58

Thanks Katie and Thomas. Waiting for HP response.....


#59

We've sent you private messages and emails to get you a working version but have received no response. . . :-(

TW

ps - I have never programmed a 12c. Is step 'x' in there supposed to be last x or something else?


Edited: 30 June 2009, 1:19 a.m.


#60

'x' = multiply

#61

Quote:
We've sent you private messages and emails to get you a working version but have received no response. . . :-(

Tim and Cyrille, I responded to each email you and Cyrille sent me. Tim on June 26 and Cyrille on June 29. I forwarded these to both of you just now.

Are you reading your email?

Don Shepherd

#62

OK, HP provided a new 12c emulator that fixes this problem. There were a couple of email failures, apparently, and a misunderstanding about the "x" command, but everything is OK now.

#63

You've substituted:

21 rcl 0
22 rcl 1
23 enter
24 x
25 x <= y

with:

21 rcl 0
22 rcl 1
23 x <= y

Which while still correct, removes the optimization that recognizes that all prime factors of Y, except for the final prime factor, will be less than or equal to the square root of Y, making your version less efficient.


Edited: 30 June 2009, 4:00 p.m.

#64

30 bucks for another 15C seems a bit steep. But running the same emulator both on an iPhone and a Windows or MacOS (hopefully in the future) should allow things like using the iPhone keyboard to control the emulator running on a PC, sending programs from iPhone to PC and vice-versa, saving/loading programs as source code, etc.

Otherwise, there's not much incentive for me to fork $30, apart from supporting HP's calculator division :-)


#65

Quote:
30 bucks for another 15C seems a bit steep.

It is, especially since you can get a 15C using the same ROM for $20. For $30 you can get SpaceTime and do symbolic math and plots and for free you can do symbolics and plots with Safari/Wolfram Alpha.

Heck for $20 you can get i41CX+ AND Free42. Both support program/data transfer and printers and just as calculators have a super set of the 15C features (i41CX+ will need a few modules).

I'd thought about getting the $20 15C just to support Eric, but it is unclear to me how much of that $14 (Apple gets $6) goes to Eric. I'd prefer to just send Eric $20 because he's a nice guy.


#66

Quote:
It is, especially since you can get a 15C using the same ROM for $20.

Did that. I paid the $20 already, it's a nice calculator.
Quote:
Heck for $20 you can get i41CX+ AND Free42. Both support program/data transfer and printers and just as calculators have a super set of the 15C features (i41CX+ will need a few modules).

did that too. Both very nice apps at very decent price.

Quote:
I'd thought about getting the $20 15C just to support Eric, but it is unclear to me how much of that $14 (Apple gets $6) goes to Eric. I'd prefer to just send Eric $20 because he's a nice guy.

Yep. I guess some of the remaining $14 go to HP as well for the license to the 15C ROM. I don't know what happened to the GPL code though, because my understanding is only the ROM is (c) HP, but nonpareil is GPL, right?

#67

The original Nonpareil source code is still GPL'd, though the various ROM images are not, and it was a mistake for me to not make that clear in the Nonpareil documentation and packaging.

While some of the source code for the iPhone calculator apps from Thomas Fors LLC and from AL Software is derived from Nonpareil source code, they are using it persuant to separately negotiated non-GPL licenses.

#68

Quote:
I'd thought about getting the $20 15C just to support Eric, but it is unclear to me how much of that $14 (Apple gets $6) goes to Eric. I'd prefer to just send Eric $20 because he's a nice guy.

Eric doesn't get a cent. His reply elsewhere in this thread:

"I was not directly involved in the development of HP's iPhone applications, and don't receive any payments of any kind from HP."

Dave.


#69

I only said that I don't get money from HP. Egan Ford was talking about the SCI-15C app published by Thomas Fors LLC.

#70

Quote:
I'd thought about getting the $20 15C just to support Eric, but it is unclear to me how much of that $14 (Apple gets $6) goes to Eric. I'd prefer to just send Eric $20 because he's a nice guy.

Thanks for the thought. All I should say about the iPhone apps is that I am perfectly happy for people to buy the apps from Thomas Fors LLC and AL Software. I think both of them have great apps. I'm sure everyone is aware of the cool new features that have recently been added to the i41CX and i41CX+ apps. While I can't promise anything, I think there will also be some nice new features in the SCI-11C, FIN-12C, SCI-15C, and PRG-16C apps in the future.

I have not yet used HP's iPhone calculator apps very much, but I'm sure that they must be fine quality products as well.

#71

Feedback from Gizmodo. Summary: price too high.

http://gizmodo.com/5302633/hp-invents-time-machine-converts-iphone-into-classic-calculator


#72

Quote:
Feedback from Gizmodo. Summary: price too high.

Odd. I get just the opposite out of the article: "Yes, get the iPhone version because the actual financial calculator is $80 and the 15C doesn't even exist anymore—and newer models are more expensive".

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