HP 17BII



#29

Hi,

I just bought myself a brand new HP 17BII (without the +). That's right, I found a shop who found a couple of crates with old calculator stock that never got sold, so I'm now the proud owner of a 1987 Indonesia 17BII that never got used.

Except for the fact that the original batteries were flat, it works great ! I bought it as a tool to help me find the right loan for my house and as I flip the virtual pages of the manual I downloaded, I know it's going to be more help than I expected.

Aside from that, I know there's a separate buy/sell section, but would it make sense to buy all the shop's crates and sell them off on an auction site ? The 17BII I bought was a little expensive, but he also has 32BII's and 10B's and I might get a discount if I buy everything. He actually claims he already threw away hundreds of calculators because it was just too much. The heretic !

Thanks for the great forum & website,


Peter.


#30

Hi!

Quote:
... but would it make sense to buy all the shop's crates and sell them off on an auction site ?

These brand new 17BIIs have already appeared on _the_ auction site, at least on the german part of it, so obviously somebody had the same idea than you... I have not bothered to look how much they are selling for, because I paid one Euro for my 17BII and they won't be able to beat that!

Greetins, Max

#31

Peter, enjoy your original 17bii with the knowledge that:

  1. it is much faster than the newer pluses, and
  2. its solver is great and has none of the problems of the solver in the pluses

#32

Quote:
Peter, enjoy your original 17bii with the knowledge that:
  1. it is much faster than the newer pluses, and
  2. its solver is great and has none of the problems of the solver in the pluses

Hi Don,

The solver and what I read about iterative solutions + let/get, is exactly why I got myself a second-hand-new 17bii instead of a 17bii+ ! Talking about which, I will want the Technical Applications book. After googling, I found one link to a PDF file, but it was dead. I know it's on a Museum CD, but since I just need this one file, I wonder if somebody can mail it :-S (If that's not illegal, of course... if it is, I'll order the CD).


Peter.


#33

Hello Peter,

there may be a better way to get the pdf-file: Please post the dead URL here in the forum and we may all try if the WayBackMachine has archieved it. WayBackMachine is an Internet-Archieve I often use when I come across a dead URL.

Kind regards

Karl


#34

Quote:
there may be a better way to get the pdf-file: Please post the dead URL here in the forum and we may all try if the WayBackMachine has archieved it. WayBackMachine is an Internet-Archieve I often use when I come across a dead URL.

Karl,

Thanks for reminding me of the WayBackMachine (WBM). The page with the link is http://www.thimet.de/calccollection/Calculators/HP-19BII/Contents.htm and the link itself is http://www.thimet.de/calccollection/Calculators/HP-27S/NC-2719TECH.PDF but unfortunately, the WBM doesn't recognise the latter. It probably was a file the author of the former page wanted to put online, but failed to.


Peter.

#35

Quote:
...he also has 32BII's and 10B's and I might get a discount if I buy everything. He actually claims he already threw away hundreds of calculators because it was just too much. The heretic !

But no HP42S units??? Way too bad!

HP32SII units, for reasons not at all apparent, seem to have appreciated in value on the auction market. Maybe those could turn a profit, especially if they are new, old-stock, with the original manual and all the packaging.


#36

Quote:
But no HP42S units??? Way too bad!

HP32SII units, for reasons not at all apparent (emphasis added), seem to have appreciated in value on the auction market.


Here, I'll point 'em out:

  • LARGE AND LEGIBLE DISPLAY THAT IS NOT SENSITIVE TO VIEWING ANGLE
  • Equations
  • Fractions
  • x-th root of y
  • Population standard deviation
  • Imperial <-> metric conversions
  • Conversions clearly shown and accessible by two keystrokes, instead of from a menu
  • Programming functions clearly shown and accessible by two keystrokes, instead of from a menu
  • %CHG and Roll_up clearly shown and accessible by two keystrokes, instead of from the function catalog
  • Hyperbolics clearly shown and accessible by three or four keystrokes, instead of from the function catalog

Of course, the HP-42S has numerous functions and capabilities that the HP-32SII doesn't. Many users don't really have a need for them, though.

I use an HP-32SII primarily, and an HP-42S only for calculations involving complex numbers and matrices.

-- KS


Edited: 27 Feb 2009, 3:17 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#37

In 1997 I bought an HP32SII so I could "save" my cherished 11-year old HP-15C. I immediately found the complex number handling to be very poor and incomplete. There were other things I didn't like, but that was the major issue.

I then went looking for an HP42S as a worthy replacement for the HP-15C. HP discontinued it in 1995. Fortunately, the student bookstore at the University of Alabama (Huntsville) apparently did not believe in lowering prices to clear old stock. It had two crispy new HP42S units (with dead batteries) in the display case, unsold since 1993. They cost me $114 each.

The HP42S immediately became and remains my favorite RPN calculator of all time. IMHO, the HP32SII (which I still own) ranks way below the HP42S in capability and features except for being a little faster. It is inferior to the much older HP-15C in many aspects.


#38

You are right. The reason for the inferiority is that the 32sii was a souped-up replacement for the 11c and the 42s was a souped-up replacement for the 15c--with 41c compatibility added as well (without the peripherals of course!).

I went from an 11c to a 32sii and it was basically all better than the previous--except for that voyager solid brick feeling etc.

#39

I agree with Karl, As an RPN 4-banger, nothing is faster/easier than the 32s(ii). For programming I prefer the 42s/48gx/50g. There are 2 calculators within reach at all times: The 32sii and 17bii.

Away from the desk I grab a 20b and stuff it in a coat pocket, but generally don't use it's full features.


#40

I think the main point here is that we all use more than one calculator, because it is impossible for a single calculator to serve all purposes. In my case, the "4-banger" is the HP-15c, the programmable is the HP-48SX and the business/financial is the HP-12c. Each is brilliant at performing its intended function, but falls short of the mark when used otherwise.

Regarding the HP-32SII, I do own one, but prefer the arrangement of the shifted functions on the HP-15c, which places one legend above the key and the other below on the sloped front of the key. HP has since reverted to this arrangement on the HP-35s. I only use the HP-32SII when I need to perform math with fractions.

#41

Quote:
As an RPN 4-banger, nothing is faster/easier than the 32s(ii).

Hi, Allen --

"Four-banger"? "Four-banger"??

Ah, but it's so much more than that!

It is evident from the linked program that the HP-32SII's complex-number functions -- albeit awkward and incomplete, as Mike Morrow said -- are very nice to have for programming.

-- KS

Edited: 26 Feb 2009, 1:12 a.m.


#42

Quote:
"Four-banger"? "Four-banger"??

We forum readers probably program our calculators more than 99% of most users, self included, so I did not consider it an insult to use my favorite (and first!) RPN calculator mainly for the [/ * - +]. It is certainly much more than that. :-)

#43

Yes, definitely flood the market with 32sii's, that will bring the price down to where we all can buy one!

#44

Peter --

Yes, NOS discoveries of desired older models always create a stir. A couple quibbles:

Quote:
I'm now the proud owner of a 1987 Indonesia 17BII that never got used.

The HP-17BII wasn't made until 1991, nor was any Pioneer-series model released until 1988 (US-made), to my knowledge. A serial number that begins with "ID7" is surely a 1997 model, after production switched from Singapore.

Quote:
but he also has 32BII's

I'm sure that you meant, "32SII".

-- KS


#45

Quote:
The HP-17BII wasn't made until 1991, nor was any Pioneer-series model released until 1988 (US-made), to my knowledge. A serial number that begins with "ID7" is surely a 1997 model, after production switched from Singapore.
...
I'm sure that you meant, "32SII".

Hi,

Of course it was the 32SII, my bad. Funny about the 17BII. I'm very certain the plastic of the calculator itself says 1987 on the back. But I'll check the serial number, it's probably 1997 then. Shame, I thought I got myself a 20+ year old calculator.


Peter.


#46

Quote:
I'm very certain the plastic of the calculator itself says 1987 on the back.
What you have on the back of the Pioneer models as the 17BII is a Copyright mention which is the same AFAIK for all units:
"(c) Hewlett-Packard Compagny 1987"


This is not the manufacturing date which you can approximate from the serial number: Decoding Serial Numbers


Example of the back of a Pioneer made in Indonesia in 1997:
1997 HP-32S II

#47

Hi,

My serno starts with 3610M, so it turns out it is a 1996 calculator made in Indonesia/Malaysia. I guess the others in the batch are similar in age.


Peter.

#48

Peter,

Could you pls. check & confirm if the 17bII shows "STAFF" in the finance menu as the sixth menu choice, after having set MODES to INTL & DEUT.

I suppose a yes, because they are French units - but one never knows ...

TIA

Peter A. Gebhardt


#49

Quote:
Could you pls. check & confirm if the 17bII shows "STAFF" in the finance menu as the sixth menu choice, after having set MODES to INTL & DEUT.

I suppose a yes, because they are French units - but one never knows ...


Peter,

It does. What does it mean ? :)


Peter.


#50

Peter,

This special German extension to the "Annuity" (classic TVM) menu on the HP17bII International ROM is because of the different requirements within the classical accounting used by German banks (only?).

Differently to the e.g. US way of reckognizing compounded interest (the TVM way), German banks add up linear interest per day and account for compounding effects only once a year.

Therefore the TVM method does not represent the accounts balance within a year exactly! Think of a passbook (savings account)where the STAFF method makes sense, because taking care of interest on savings/withdrawals with simple multiplication was easier in the days before the calculator revolution.

The way interest was calculated then: 10% interst per year divided by 360 (accounting) days then multiplied by the number of days a balance was bearing interest on that account.

Best regards,

Peter A. Gebhardt

PS: Look up the term "capitalized simple interest" here

http://www.margill.com/Interest-calculation-White-paper.htm


Edited: 26 Feb 2009, 7:15 a.m.

#51

STAFF is a German method for annuities and annual effective rate calculation, called "Staffelzinsmethode". I found an explanation in the 17BII+ manual.

#52

In the french MySilicium forum we did some simple calculator benchmarking: Let the machine loop for a minute and check how far it gets. Here is my "loop" for the 17BII/17bII+:

B=A+SIGMA(N:1:1E99:1:L(A:N))

Solve for B and do a RCL A after the stop.

Whatever the initial values for A or B, the 17bII+ starts looping. This is different on the 17BII: After a CLR DATA, it returns B=0 as a direct result. The solver does not take the L(A:N) into account. To make it loop, store a nonzero guess in A before solving for B. In my opinion, this is a bug in the original solver implementation.


#53

Marcus, I have noticed this same behavior on the 17bii+'s before. If you press B twice, it will execute the loop, even after a Clear Data when A has nothing in it. Strange.


#54

I'm sorry, on the 17bii's before. The plusses seem to process it as one would expect.


#55

Marcus & Don,

So what should we take as a reference now?

The venerable 17BII, the 19BII (200LX HPCALC as well)???

Is the honorable John Tirone wrong in stating, that he could no longer recommend his own book wholeheartedly, because of changes in the L() & G() handling in the newer HP17BII+ - because (as it seems from Marcus post) he was misguided in "using" the eventual bug in the HP17BII to develop his fine solver solutions for real-estate practioneers?

Will the "HP-27S/19B Technical Applications" document be of some help?

Best regards

Peter A. Gebhardt


#56

I'm not sure if this is related to the chapter "How LET and GET Change an Equation" page 14 of the "HP-27S/19B Technical Applications" and when a direct solution may be found by the solver while it would not be "correct":

After the CLR DATA we have two formal variables unknown: A and B, each appearing once for the solver and we solve for B without initializing A ...


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