My review, HP 35s



#42

I recently picked up the new HP 35s, and have spent a week or so playing with it, and thought I would post my thoughts.

Background: I went through college from '80 to '84 for my engineering degree, in the heyday of the HP 41 series, and lived and died by that thing. My first was the HP41CV, and later I replaced it with the HP41CX. I had the card reader, the printer, and a couple of the ROM pacs. I had the books on Synthetic Programming, and the ROM for it. I subscribed to the various HP journals of the day.

This was back in the day when my wife and I didn't have 2 dimes to rub together, so all those things represented a signficant investment, and I was COMMITTED to that thing, both fiscally and emotionally, heh. I was an advocate, exchanging programs with my other equally-demented HP friends, and other users across the campus. I wrote dozens of programs for it as I progressed through my courses.

In recent years my old HP41 has been used less and less, as PC's, cell phones, and Blackberries/PDA's have replaced some of the functionality we used to crowbar into the calculator. But I still use it for lots of things, and when the keyboard began to misbehave a few years ago (the "1" key would sometimes register a 1, and sometimes not, making using it a bit exciting), I began to look around for a replacement.

This was around the early 2000's, and the models at the time just left me cold, I had no desire to purchase one. I have just been limping along with my occasionally-"1"-key-challenged HP41CX and making the best of it. However, I recently ran across the new HP 35s, and thought "aaahh, finally, HP is going back in the right direction!" and bought one. After a week of playing with it, I have a few thoughts to offer:

Positives:

- Love the old-style tactile keyboard

- the Equation Editor, and how it integrates with the Solver and the Integrator, is just great.

- the Solver is a huge addition from the HP41 days, wow, nice

- the Integrator is nice too

- the ability to handle complex and vector types natively, as single entries in storage memory or on the stack, is great

- the Linear Regression functions are nice and well done

- Like the Base conversions, although I'm still a bit confused about how to use them. I'll figure it out though.

Opportunities to Improve (see, I'm being kind in my language):

- I'd like to know who decided that "STO" should be a shifted key, and that "MODE" needed to be unshifted. That one just boggles my mind. Did the design team who came up with that actually have anyone on the team who uses these things? The MODE key allows you to switch between Degrees/Radians/Grads, and Algebraic/RPN modes. Here's a hint: I go between Degrees and Radians very infrequently, and when I do, it's a one-time thing I do at the beginning of a calculation sequence, not on the fly. I've never used Grads in my life, and I'll never use Algebraic mode. And even if I hated RPN and preferred Algebraic, my comment would be "I'll never use RPN mode", my point being, people are either one way or the other with ALG/RPN, they don't need to switch. The selector between ALG and RPN could be a toggle switch in the battery compartment, as frequently as it will ever be used. There is just nothing the MODE key does that merits it being a primary, unshifted key, particularly if it displaces some other function that should be unshifted, such as "STO". STO is a key I use constantly, on the fly, during calculation sequences, to stash some intermediate value for later recall and use, and the fact that it is shifted is just really irksome. If there is a glaring fault on the ergonomics of this calculator, this is it.

- Ok, I feel better now having gotten that out. But seriously...

- In this day and age, there really needs to be a USB connection capability, with the ability to move equations and programs back and forth between the PC. All my phones and PDA's have that, with robust connectivity options. Calculators have to step it up and make this a standard feature. Without some mechanism to store/retrieve programs, a programmable calculator is extremely hobbled - no "serious" software will ever be written for it.

- The "10^x" and "LOG" functions should probably go on one key, and likewise the "e^x" and "LN" functions. Right now those functions are actually on different keys (10^x / e^x are on one key, and LOG / LN are on another). I have no problem with them all being shifted, but since they are inverse functions they likely should go on the same key, like the trig functions. That one is not as big a deal as my STO/MODE rant above, but it does lead me back to the question of who was on the design team that thought that 10^x/e^x and LOG/LN went together, rather than e^x/LN and 10^x/LOG. Yes I understand that "textually" they look better the way they are, but mathematically it doesn't make sense. I don't use them that often, so when I need "LN" for example I go scanning and maybe I see "e^x" and think "ok, there's e^x so LN should be ... nope not there." Again, not that big a deal, more of an ergonomic zit.

- All the unit coversions built onto the keyboard really could have been in one of the menus. Every engineer will use some of them, but most won't use them all, and trying to guess which ones we'll all use is just a recipe for wasted keyboard real estate. Another ergonomic zit.

- the mechanism for indirect addressing is a bit clumsy, in that you have to use the I and/or J variables. I preferred the HP41 paradigm, where any register from 0-99 could be used as an indirect register.

- it would be really nice if you could both directly and indirectly access any register. The HP 35s allows you to indirectly access any register (A..Z, the statistics registers, and 0..800), but only allows direct access to the named A..Z registers.

Summary: While I've spent more time ranting about the negatives than the positives, I still like and recommend this calculator. It has some huge improvements over my old HP41's, and huge ergonomic improvements over the more recent HP calculators, in the keyboard if nothing else. My rant about the STO key is really more of a "but it could have been so much BETTER" comment, rather than a "this calculator is a step down" comment.

So, message to HP: You're doing the right things, you're going in the right direction again, and you've managed to stir the passions of this old calculator user at least. Now, get that STO key back on the unshifted keyboard, demote the MODE key to something shifted unless you have keyboard real estate to burn, and get a USB port in there. Fix the silly e^x/10^x LOG/LN layout if you get around to it, and consider demoting all those unit conversions to a menu somewhere.

Thanks,
Elliott


#43

Hi Elliott,

Me for 100% and certainly the vast majority of the forum members will support your statement. Thanks for posting it!

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter

P.S. Since you may not know it, you find a 43s here.


#44

Oh my, is that 43 you show a dreamed-up prototype or something? It certainly appears from the keyboard layout to match almost exactly my comments.


#45

I fear, its just a virtual dream. ;)


#46

Ah. I also see now, from digging through the archives, this topic has been discussed at length before - apparently I am late to the party!

I do see lots of other comments about the shifted-STO key and lack of USB connectivity.


#47

Late to the party, Hihi!

Some of us even deconstructed different ROM versions of the HP 33s that came a few years ago. We tracked every little change, ad absurdum. You have met the Holy Grail of Afficianado Calculatorum.

Best regards,

Bill


#48

Yeah, late to the party :) That party lays siege to HP like a wolf pack, with the grey ones howling in chorus "Bring back..." -- then the chorus splits into single voices "... the 15C", "... the 41CX", "... the 42S", "... quality". Only very meddlesome, nosy wolflings rise their little voices "Launch a 43s!" d;-)


#49

It is never too late to "complain" about what you dislike. If complains get forgotten there won't be an improvement in future calculators.

What about the keyboard problems? My 35s still misses keys when I do fast additions, that's also the reason why I stopped using it. The display scratches easily. That's not the case on the 32sii. Definetely not an improvement.

As for the 43s, ..., that would be really nice! I would just add one minor change, an alpha keyboard like the one of the 41c. There could even be a flag setting to switch between the 42 and 41 manner to enter text and commands so that everyone gets satisfied. For new "users" 42-like entering text is too frustrating.


#50

"Well spoken, Patrick", the fairy whispered, "your modest wish shall be fulfilled."

Ceterum censeo: HP, ...

Walter

P.S.: As long as the LCD allows for soft keys, I'd prefer the cleaner keyboard. YMMV.


#51

@ Walter. Thanks! When will you start producing this beast ;).

@ HP. Wake up! There are indeed people willing to buy this.

#52

Thumbs up to the direct alpha keyboard - I never liked the soft-alpha entry like in the 42S, the 41 spoiled me from the very beginning :-)

Oh such a machine... Will this dream ever become a reality? I doubt it, so we'd better enjoy the dreaming!

Best,
ÁM


#53

Best Alpha keyboard for me is HP-71B keyboard.


#54

Quote:
Best Alpha keyboard for me is HP-71B keyboard.

Closely followed by the HP-28C/S and the other foldables.

#55

Quote:
Quote:
Best Alpha keyboard for me is HP-71B keyboard.

Closely followed by the HP-28C/S and the other foldables.

I second statement 1, but not 2. The 28C features an ABCD keyboard, a type which's only right of living is to cope with NCEES rules. This layout isn't reasonable for quick text input. OTOH a QWERT keyboard may even be done on a Voyager, as I showed years ago (more may be seen here and in further posts) -- it's a pity they have NCEES in the US of A. blocking such solutions.
#56

Elliott,

In case you did not discover the reason for the lack of USB or other means to upload and download data: if the 35s had such capability, it would not and could not be permitted for use when taking Professional Engineer and Professional Surveyor examinations sponsored by National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) in the US. The NCEES prohibits any calculator with such capabilities, and produces a a list of approved calculators each year for use on the following year's examinations. The 35s is on that list, as is the 33s. These are the only rpn-capable calculators allowed on the test. Without the market driven by rpn-users taking the PE/PS examinations, the 35s might very well not exist.

The wisdom of the NCEES policy has been the subject of lively discussion here, search if you are interested.

Edited: 9 Feb 2009, 7:39 a.m.

#57

Thanks for posting Elliot. I too was in college in the early 80's, had (and still have) a 41CV with printer and card reader.

For what it's worth, the nits that you mention are all addressed in the 50g, except perhaps for the STO problem. On the 50g, STO is unshifted, but variable names are arbitrary, so to STO something in variable "K", you have to press 4 keys (in RPN mode) ' ALPHA K STO.
If the variable already exits and the soft keys are showing variables, you can store to K by pressing Left-shift <K soft key> so that helps.

I agree 200% about the USB port. By preventing the easy saving/loading of programs, they've severely limited the usefulness of the calculator.

Dave


#58

Thanks for the note. I did download the manual for the HP50g, and it doesn't go into a lot of detail about the USB port. They talk a lot about the SD card.

Can someone briefly describe how the USB port works on the HP50g? What all information can be stored/retrieved, how difficult is it, where does the information show up on the PC, does it take proprietary PC software to send/receive, etc?


#59

You will need the software on the PC that came with the calc (or you find on the Net) or something similar in nature: An X-Modem or Kermit client that "sees" the USB connection as a serial device.

The Conn4x software package by HP works as a kind of file manager: You have read/write access to the directories on your calc and you can move the files on your PC where appropriate. The transfer format can be set to ASCII: This way, you can edit the RPL code on your PC and transfer it back to the calc. Import/export of lists, vectors or matrices into and out of a spreadsheet should be possible, too, probably after some fiddling with the file format.

#60

Elliot,

For what it's worth, I hardly ever use the USB connection to my 50g, and instead transfer files via the SD card. I have a card reader on my desk, so it's quite easy to slap the card in the reader, drag & drop a file into it on the PC, and then yank the card out of the reader and drop it in the calculator.

#61

After reading this note, I keep going back to the HP50g manuals and whatnot, and I just can't get past the look. It doesn't appear that the keyboard is any good (although I've read other folks talk about how deep and tactily the keys feel, almost to a fault according to some, but I sure can't see how that is true, given the pictures I'm looking at).

Also - am I confused, or is the RCL key shifted on the HP50g? It looks like STO is unshifted, but RCL is shifted? Ugh. See my rant that kicked off this thread, and replace every occurrence of STO with RCL and it's just as true. Ugh. And that Enter key...I can hear HP saying "hey, man, size doesn't matter!" While I will happily accept that delusion in regards to certain other topics, I am not willing to accept it here. Size matters.

I WANT to want a 50g, or any calculator really with a capability to store/retrieve info. But I can't make myself want it. I'm stuck waiting on the next generation 35.

It's ok I guess. I like my new 35s toy. I just can't get too fired up to write some crazy programs for it, given the inability to store/retrieve them.

Edited: 10 Feb 2009, 11:05 p.m.


#62

Quote:
Also - am I confused, or is the RCL key shifted on the HP50g? It looks like STO is unshifted, but RCL is shifted?

You will not use STO/RCL on the 50g as much as you may expect. Most use the soft menu keys to recall/execute and left-shift-soft-key to STO and right-shift-soft-key to RCL (no execute). When programming STO is used, but variable recall is achieved by just stating the variable name. No need for RCL.
Quote:
Ugh. And that Enter key...I can hear HP saying "hey, man, size doesn't matter!" While I will happily accept that delusion in regards to certain other topics, I am not willing to accept it here. Size matters.

I have heard various rationals for the location and size of the ENTER key. What about the location of the arithmetic operators? No arguments there? They moved from left (with the ENTER) to right (without the ENTER) and the order (top to bottom) changed, then the ENTER moved right (50g/33s), then left again (35s).

I will share one observation about location. I find using the 41 with the operators and ENTER on the left with numbers and R/S on the right very natural. OTOH, I find the 50g with the operators and ENTER on the right also natural and easy to use. But, I have to admit, aesthetically the double-wide ENTER is missed.

Quote:
I WANT to want a 50g, or any calculator really with a capability to store/retrieve info.

Get a 50g. In every sense it is a superior device compared to the 35s. You'll adapt to the keyboard layout in no time.

Not only do I refuse to use calculators without I/O for production use, but I also refuse to use calculators without an emulator. I prefer to develop and test on my laptop then download to the real thing or iPhone emulators. I do make one exception and that is my 15C. The programming capacity is relatively limited and can be backuped to paper in minutes and restored in minutes.

Back to the 50g. There are two emulators (one for Windows and the other for Linux/Unix/OSX). Just about every other HP RPN model also has emulators for Windows/Linux/OSX. Absent is the 35s.

Quote:
I just can't get too fired up to write some crazy programs for it, given the inability to store/retrieve them.

Get a 50g emulator and give it a try.
#63

>It looks like STO is unshifted, but RCL is shifted? Ugh

Have you ever used a 48 series calc before (just curious)? RCL doesn't really make sense as a direct key as almost all recalling will be done on a menu. Storing as well once the object exists. They are done using the menu keys. And if you don't like it. . . go ahead and redefine the whole keyboard to your desire. You have 10 built in key planes.


> While I will happily accept that delusion in regards to certain
> other topics

Must . . . resist . . . joke . . .

:-)

TW


#64

Quote:
>It looks like STO is unshifted, but RCL is shifted? Ugh

Have you ever used a 48 series calc before (just curious)?


In fact I've not. I'm not sure I understand what you are describing - perhaps I should take the next poster's advice and get an emulator to play with and see.


#65

You should definitely try an emulator. Visit www.hpcalc.org

Edited: 12 Feb 2009, 10:03 a.m.

#66

Quote:
- the Solver is a huge addition from the HP41 days, wow, nice

Elliot,

Ironic, because I had the 35s for a while, and got rid of it, one of the main reasons being the Solver.

Actually, the Solver IS great ... unless you have used the one on the 27s (17b, 17bii similar). With these you get full alpha capabilities, so that, for instance, you can name a variable "DISTANCE", instead of just "D". Imagine the huge difference this makes, if you have several equations with different "D's" in them. You can also name equations, so that when you scroll through the equation list, it is clear what they are, instead of having to figure it out by looking at the terms in it.

This illustrates my beef with the present-day HP. The calculator would make better use of all that memory if they had implemented the 27s type of Solver (and also if they incorporated some of your other comments). But (apparently), HP would rather put together a quickie, taking the easiest route (just upgrading the 33s firmware), than to spend the money and time to produce a truly great calculator.

Edited: 9 Feb 2009, 2:24 p.m. after one or more responses were posted


#67

I agree on this solver aspect. It seemed to be an incremental step from the 32sii. The big enormous improvement over the 32sii and hte33s solver is the ability to edit the equations--previously you had to backspace over code to get to where you needed to change!

It would be a good idea, from a product sales aspect, to continually improve the 35S line. It should definitely have full alpha variable naming. It should also have the nifty softkey variables system of the 27S/17b.

Other upgrades that should be done is to bring back a real rectangular to polar conversion, the ability to decompose vectors and to build them from stack objects (with the latter, the former might be accomplished anyway),

improved Octal/Hex/Binary--more like previous models,

Ability to move equations in and out of the equation list and program memory--in other words a "copy/paste" capability,

Ability to integrate and solve in the same program, a la 15C.

Full indirection

Put store on a primary position and bury mode as a shifted function.

If they keep adding new features every two years, people will keep buying them--just like the old days! Maybe anyway....

HP 36S next year, retire the 35S, use the same tooling...

Edited: 9 Feb 2009, 12:07 p.m.


#68

Quote:
HP 36S next year, retire the 35S, use the same tooling...

Please not exactly the same tooling, but move the cursor cross one row down to make way for a complete line of 6 soft keys. Jake suggested this several times here, too. See above in this thread for a design which can be projected easily on such a 36s as well.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s (you may also call it 36s).

Walter

#69

The Solver on the 17bii, 17biiS (Silver) and the rest of that family, FAR outpaces the 35s. It would be a dream if the 35s had this capability. I -- like many others -- underestimated the Solver on the 17bii for the longest time, and then once I had one, it was like "wait, where did THIS come from?!".

The 35s is a great machine. But go check out the other Solvers and you'll be even more impressed.

thanks,
bruce


#70

Quote:
The Solver on the 17bii, 17biiS (Silver) and the rest of that family, FAR outpaces the 35s... I -- like many others -- underestimated the Solver on the 17bii for the longest time, and then once I had one, it was like "wait, where did THIS come from?!"...

go check out the other Solvers and you'll be even more impressed.


I keep finding nifty features that I hadn't noticed before.

For instance, did you know that you can STO and RCL the Solver variables, and therefore do operations with them? To do this you use the soft keys to access the variable name. So to use the results of several different equations you scroll the equation list and press CALC, STO or RCL the variable name, exit the equation to scroll and pick up the next variable you need... all the while your HP keeps track of your pending operations!

Maybe "everyone" already knows this, but it was a cool discovery for me.


#71

Hi Martin:

Have you discovered the Let and Get functions yet? They will blow your mind.

See the L(...) and G(...) in the following:

http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/articles.cgi?read=222

I love it when W.B. states, "Anyway, being an engineer, I break out in a rash if I don't have access to the trigonometric and inverse-trig. functions." :-D

Edited: 11 Feb 2009, 5:50 p.m.


#72

Quote:
Hi Martin:

Have you discovered the Let and Get functions yet? They will blow your mind.


Bill,

I had heard of them, but never investigated. Now you have tweaked my curiosity!

I have used SGN and nested IF's, though, which make for some powerful routines.

#73

I agree 100% with your comments as well as many made by others in reply to your post. I would add the following gripes I have with this model:

1) The decimal point is very hard to pick out in certain situations. Type in 22,222.222 and then try to find the decimal point. This is in stark contrast to my beloved HP-15C, which I believe had the best display ever (as well as the best keys). Still, it's a vast improvement over the HP-33s, where the decimal point was impossible to see.

2) Why even bother to have algebraic mode at all? As you point out, there are RPN people and there are algebraic people. If HP eliminated this unneeded option by making this a pure RPN calculator, this would free up a lot of key label space through the removal algebraic constructs such as = () [].

3) One of the few features I liked about the HP-33s were the soft rounded grippers on the sides of the case, which made it very comfortable and secure when holding the calculator in my hand. The HP-335s is hard slick plastic, and several times the calculator has squirted out of my hand. Well, at least it past the drop test.

Still, there's more to like than hate with the HP-35s, and it's a vast improvement over the HP-33s (except for the shifted STO), which had simply awful ergonomics, keys and display.


#74

Equations in programs are a useful feature and you will not give up vectors or complex numbers: The parentheses are neccessary.


#75

You bring up a very valid point, which occured to me after I made this posting. Due to the very limited capabilities of the HP-35s with only single letter variable names, no matrix capabilities, and no calculator to PC communication capability, I have never used mine for equation writing or programming. Instead, I use my beloved HP-48SX for these purposes, and just use the HP-35s as a fixed-function calculator. Not to split hairs here, but parentheses () are useful for equations, brackets [] are required for vectors, and neither are required for complex numbers. Also, the equal sign = is required to write an equation. So, maybe HP will bring forth the HP-43s and make us all happy? (when pigs fly)


#76

Quote:
So, maybe HP will bring forth the HP-43s and make us all happy? (when pigs fly)

They used to fly long time ago during Pink Floyd live shows ... :-)

.. interestingly - if I remember correctly - it should have been at the same time as HP was building the models praised in this forum.

Edited: 11 Feb 2009, 12:45 p.m.

#77

Quote:
2) Why even bother to have algebraic mode at all?

To get a bigger market share, without having to produce two different calculators.
Quote:
As you point out, there are RPN people and there are algebraic people. If HP eliminated this unneeded option by making this a pure RPN calculator, this would free up a lot of key label space through the removal algebraic constructs such as = () [].

I am one of those algebraic people. But when I had my 35s, I would switch to RPN when doing repetitive unary functions. In fact, that's how the older algebraic calculators worked, so it is familiar to me. I can learn to live with SIN(X) [the 35s way], instead X SIN [the 27s way]. But MILE(X)? This is taking algebraic notation to an extreme. I could give other examples, but my point here is that there are user (not just marketing) benefits to having a dual-mode calculator.


#78

I would be interested to know how much added market share HP has obtained though the addition of algebraic mode to the HP-35s. I suspect it is negligible, since there are numerous very competitive and more cost-effective purely algebraic alternatives from competitors such as TI, Sharp and Casio. I think HP's reputation in the area of high-end scientific calculators was built on RPN, and I think any attempt to corner the market by pleasing everyone is ineffective. I seem to remember a fable by Aesop with the moral that if you try to please everybody, you end up pleasing nobody.


#79

After the discussion was launched 2 days ago, I decided to give my 35s a second chance. I checked two things: ALG Mode, which I never used up tp date and I checked whether my machine still misses keystrokes.

As for ALG mode, well in comparision to a Casio with Natural Display, the ALG mode of the 35s is by far outdated. Some think that ALG mode gives HP better sales. For my part, I never saw a person use an 35s at my school. Take average people wanting a calculator. Do you really think that they buy a $60 HP when they can get a $20 Casio with a far better and intuitive user interface? My students have become more than enthousiastic after I showed them how to use their Casio to solve quadratic equations, linear systems, how to integrate numerically and how to do regression statistics. They would never have bought the HP for three times the money but with less obvious functions.

As for the keyboard issue, I did a full reset to have a clean calculator. I then did usual calculations, in my case additions of scores my students obtained at a test. And again, it was not possible to get the right answer at once. When doing additions I am quite fast and the 35s misses my keystrokes. This happens, when I key in numbers and when the "busy" annunciator is lit on. It seems that there is no buffer, or a bad buffer, for storing key inputs. All my other HPs DON'T show this behaviour, they are faster than I am. In my view this is simply a design fault (and a big shame). The 35s is UNUSABLE for my applications as I cannot rely on the results it displays.

So this evening the 35s will again disappear in its drawer and the felow 32sii will be the workhorse.


#80

Quote:
As for ALG mode, well in comparison to a Casio with Natural Display, the ALG mode of the 35s is by far outdated. Some think that ALG mode gives HP better sales. For my part, I never saw a person use an 35s at my school. Take average people wanting a calculator. Do you really think that they buy a $60 HP when they can get a $20 Casio with a far better and intuitive user interface?

The additional market share I was speaking of is among practicing engineers/engineering students, not "average people". Believe it or not, there are those of us who value both ALG mode and HP quality/look/feel.

Edited: 11 Feb 2009, 11:20 a.m.

#81

thanks for the review - just got mine yesterday and working through the manual.

I like to return to an old style keyb layout even if it is not quite the quality of the 42s or 10C... series

Even several months on HP still seems to be shipping buggy units and quite a few of the HPMuseum's bug list are still present

After working through the manual ... I'd like to add a new one ....

On page 14-6 we have an example of Combinations of People.

[2] [4] [enter] [6] [left shift] [nCr]

works fine

the second part of the example is slightly different :

[2] [4] [enter] [6] [left shift] [nCr] [x<>y] [divide]

Unfortunately after processing the nCr the 35s clears the stack and does not return the TOTAL NUMBER OF COMBINATIONS into the Y register


#82

Hi Ian,

That is not a bug. You are misinterpreting the manual.

First you should edit your message--it is page 4-16.

In the worked examples, first you calculate the number of combinations of 24 people, 6 a time. That result (134596) is in the x-register. The next worked example is 14 women grouped 6 at a time. You do this problem without doing any clearing or rolling etc of the stack. Once you have solved this problem, you will see (3003) in the x-register and (134596) in the y-register. X<>Y exchanges them, and / gives you the probability.

This works the same as the HP 32sii.

Edited: 13 Feb 2009, 10:44 a.m.


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