Survey active! From www.hpcalc.org ... HP would like to hear about your favorite vintage HP calc!



#2

NEW, OCTOBER 6: Are you a long-time user of HP calculators? If so, HP would like to hear about your favorite vintage HP calculator. Please take a couple minutes to fill out a survey to tell HP what you liked most.

Survey


#3

Hello!

Thank you for the link. Would be intersting to know, what "other" model(s) the majority has voted for! Obviously the much praised HP-15 and HP-41 are not everybody's darlings (mine neither!).

Greetings, Max

Edited: 14 Oct 2008, 3:05 p.m.


#4

Well, from my vantage, if they don't make it no more, and people still pay top dollar for them - to USE them, not just collect them, then they are vintage. That means the top two of all time have to be the 42 and the 48gx... Just MHO.

#5

Gene, thanks a lot for the opportunity to participate. I guess I know the favourite "other model". But who on earth told those surveyors to waste a line for the 10C?

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter


#6

or a 15S?


#7

And, stay focused on the survey! :-) Asking for an HP 43S++++GX isn't going to help HP.

Appears they want to know of these past models, what is your interest... and if none of the above, which past model not listed...

Don't go overboard. :-)


#8

Hey, what are you talking about? Seems it's all Greek to you. Gene, remember 2 Roman legions were doomed in the German "marais" 1999 years ago, so learn some Latin before arguing ;)

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter


#9

Quote:
Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter,

you might want to reconsider your ceterum censeo: Old Cato was aiming to destroy something, not to get build something new! So, let's hope you're not provoking a war on scientific calculators altogether...

Regards,
George


#10

George (or whoever you are behind this pseudonym),

Quote:
you might want to reconsider your ceterum censeo: Old Cato was aiming to destroy something, not to get build something new! So, let's hope you're not provoking a war on scientific calculators altogether...

AFAIK, Cato Maior used this to get a job done (though there are considerable doubts he really said this, but that's another story). Finally the job he persistently asked for to be done was done as we can read in history and see in Tunisia. I just try the same method hoping it shall be for the best of us and some more. No destruction(s) intended.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter


#11

WalterB (or whoever you are behind this pseudonym),

let's hope that that what you intend (construction) is not misinterpreted on HP's side to mean destruction. And let's hope that Cato's method will work faster today than it did back in his days.

Regards,
George (the name I like to be addressed by)


#12

George,

Quote:
let's hope that that what you intend (construction) is not misinterpreted on HP's side to mean destruction.
Why should they do so? Please explain.
Quote:
And let's hope that Cato's method will work faster today than it did back in his days.
No idea how long it took Cato. I join this forum for 4 jears now. So maybe I should have started this way earlier ;)

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s

Walter

P.S.: The "pseudonym" was just referring to the other thread you started.

Edited: 15 Oct 2008, 9:27 a.m.


#13

Quote:
Why should they do so? Please explain.

As I tried to explain above, not very lucidly I admit: the original ceterum thingy resulted in the utter destruction of Carthage. So, maybe the HP calc department will be ultimately upset by your repeated wish for the 43s and think it best to close down their site as they sense they are not up to fulfill their customer's needs.

Quote:
No idea how long it took Cato.

He started in 157 BCE, after having been among some deputies send to Carthage. The third Punic war ended in 146 BCE. Get out your favorite HP to compute the difference ;-)

Judging by that, we will be well in the next decade before we see the 43s.

To come back to topic: maybe HP is thinking about relaunching one of our favorite calculators. I'm tempted to rephrase Cato's calling to

CETERUM CENSEO BRING BACK THE 15C AND THE 42S


Edited: 15 Oct 2008, 10:18 a.m.


#14

Quote:
the original ceterum thingy resulted in the utter destruction of Carthage. So, maybe the HP calc department will be ultimately upset by your repeated wish for the 43s and think it best to close down their site as they sense they are not up to fulfill their customer's needs.

Hmmmh, do you really think they are so sensible?? Committing suicide because they can't fulfill the expectations of a few customers? Must be an assembly of walking dead then already. But if you think so, why then did you dare to append your own CETERVM CENSEO? Though you know they lack necessary parts of said calcs? That's close to 1st degree murder. No, I'm sorry, you didn't convince me.
Quote:
He started in 157 BCE, after having been among some deputies send to Carthage.

That's the date I was looking for. Thanks! Cato's own job, however, was done when 3rd Punic War started in 149 B.C., so by mental arithmetic (here you see I must be one of the old guys ;) I find 8 years of "ceterum censeo". Well, hard work to do :-/ , but based on your assumptions above I guess HP being slightly softer than SENATVS ROMANORVM. Anyway you're right, it will be the next decade. Nevertheless, "every journey begins with its first step" (Konfuzius?):

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter

#15

Good Morning!

Quote:
Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

For me, an HP-02 please :-) A calculator watch with the interface of the new "HP TouchSmart" PC (which really looks veeeeery similar to that of the iPhone, obviously HP beat Apple in implementing this technology on large scale screens).

Greetings, Max

#16

If you take the survey, consider adding the following enhancements to the HP-41CX: 600 registers of Extended memory built-in, user selectable speed-up (10X would be good), user selectable display backlighting, (maybe even keyboard lighting, wouldn't that be great!), a stronger case (so I would not worry so much about dropping the thing and breaking the case posts), and resistance to battery corrosion. I'd easily pay $250 for one of those, as long as it was not ruined in the process (it has to stay compatible with everything that can be plugged into the original HP-41).

For the HP-42S, I'd add HP-IL interface and functions, HP-IL mass storage emulation (so it could swap programs directly with the HP-41), higher speed, more memory, display and keyboard backlighting, and HP-41CX functions (Time and Extended Functions).

This survey is very interesting. Someone at HP must believe there is a potential market in bringing back the HP-41 and HP-1xC series. Since they still build the HP-12C, it would not be too far a stretch to build the HP-10C, 11C, 15C, 16C again. The HP-41 was probably added because of the huge current and devoted user base for that machine.

Dan


#17

Well, personally I would be SHOCKED if any plug-in were possible or even considered.

Can HP ever recreate HP-IL or the card reader given limited resources today?

Just can't see it! (That's not insider information, just a statement given observation!)


#18

The survey indicates that HP is considering re-releasing the HP-41, among other calculators. If it does not have expansion ports, it is not an HP-41. That's what made that device so popular. This survey appears to me to be targetting a different product release than something like the 35S, which was all new, not anything like an HP-35.

You misinterpreted my request that the 'new' -41 remain port compatible with the old. I am not suggesting that HP have to begin selling all the old peripherals again. That is unnecessary. There might be a few that would make sense (just look at the prices of Advantage modules on Ebay!)

HP would not have to recreate HP-IL, they already created it. If a 'new' HP-41 were available, I would just be able to use all the HP-IL stuff I already have, as long as the orginal port interfacing is still there.

I thought of one more HP-41 advancement! The IR module built in, not consuming a port (there is room above the ports), and switchable off (so that the ROM address space could be used by an HP-IL module/printer).

Dan


#19

And, I would be shocked, shocked I tell you :-), if any redone HP41 had ports that communicated with any old peripherals.

Granted, that means it isn't the same as the old HP 41.

But, that's what the OTHER model suggestion is for...

And HP 42s!

Gene

#20

Quote:
. . . something like the 35S, which was all new, not anything like an HP-35.

Actually, the "35" was only used as part of a marketing ploy, commemorating the 35th anniversary of the HP-35. No one expected the 35s to relate directly to the original 35. (At least I didn't.)

And, FWIW, the 35s isn't "all new", but a re-packaged and upgraded -- some might argue otherwise -- HP-32sII (which was itself an upgraded -- I would argue otherwise -- HP-32s).

#21

You're not going to see HP-IL, magnetic cards, or 41C-compatible (mechanical and electrical) ports on any new machines. Those features would require immense engineering costs for very little benefit. What you should expect instead is flash memory cards (most likely SD or one of its variants) and USB. That's why those are found on the 49g+/50g.

Your suggested HP-IL mass storage emulation is definitely a possibility though. Most likely implementation would simply be to have equivalent mass storage functions with the same XROM numbers, but without the other HP-IL functions.


#22

Quote:
... What you should expect instead is ... USB ...


Yes, but it should be USB host (master) like in other computers and not slave like in a peripheral devices. Only this could be a replacement for IL or ports.

I know that this is not a simple task, but it makes the difference between a computer like the 41 and simple calculator. This would be a real advantage against windows mobile and iphone.

#23

If USB, it must be able to act as a master. I'm not fond of the fact that USB is not what its name says. It's not a bus. You can only connect one thing at a time to a port unless you also use a hub, and then it's my understanding that you can't pass control around either. HPIL allowed dozens of things at once with simple addressing, although I do have to go through the 82169A interface converter to control IEEE-488 (HPIB) lab equipment with the 41 or 71. The 82169A is basically transparent though, so signal generators, programmable power supplies, network analyzers, etc. on IEEE-488 appear to be on the HPIL.

#24

IMHO, this survey was not being used to consider the release of a 'new' machine, like the HP-35S. It was targetted towards the market for a 're-released' machine. Something that the current users of the old machines would actually adopt. The only way that would happen is if the 'new features' did not remove (conflict with) any important features on the original device. For the HP-41C, that included the I/O ports.

Dan

#25

177 responses so far..

Even though I picked the HP-15C (for its form factor and physical size) and HP-41C (for its Alpha features, uncluttered keyboard and re-definable keyboard), I think a HP-35S with a Micro-SD card slot (for software/data/firmware storage and transfer) would be a great hardware platform to start from.


#26

HP has to keep at least one programmable scientific calculator without any memory card slots or communication interfaces in the product line for people taking various exams such as NCEES. That is one reason why such things have only appeared on the high-end calculators.


#27

Why all this survey talk about our favorite vintage calc? Are they discussing their next release? Why don't they just fix or upgrade the 2007 HP 35s ??

Physically, the 35s has everything we need (and it has already been mass produced):

Decent package.

Decent keyboard.

Decent LCD.

Decent price.

Nice Enter Key.

Nice RPN.

It IS retro, and it IS RIGHT (as Jake Schwartz would say ;).

It is only lacking in SOFTWARE. If HP can add some ROM memory for Cyrille to work with, and give him the Bug & Wish list (from this site), I'm certain an even better calculator would result.

If HP is concerned I would NOT buy an HP 35s+ (plus), since I already own two HP 35s, they are wrong. I simply consider myself an early adopter and am comfortable with the 35s shortcomings, and would gladly add an improved 35s+, or whatever they want to call it, to my desktop.

Regards,

PG

(The reason I replied to Eric's post is because I understand HP needs a calc that fits the description in Eric's reply, and the HP 35s is that calculator).


Edited: 15 Oct 2008, 11:48 a.m.


#28

Quote:
Physically, the 35s has everything we need (and it has already been mass produced):

Decent package.

Decent keyboard.

Decent LCD.

Decent price.

Nice Enter Key.

Nice RPN.


Almost. My answers are a small yes / NO / NO / YES / YES / yes. And since you didn't start reading this forum today, you know why. And at least Jake knows as well.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter


#29

I agree with most of that. I love the 35s.

My only complaint against the 35s (assuming it had some "transfer" ability, whether it be USB or SD card) is that it doesn't stack up against the 41c or 42s in terms of programmability. Yes, you can write RPN-style programs, but look at the depth and richness of the command set of the 4x series calcs, and it's NOT THERE in the 35s. If it were, I'd be using the 35s all the time.

It's just not the perfect 4x series replacement yet.

thanks,
bruce

#30

The keyboard is a good design but with bad reliability

#31

My survey responses:

1) My favorite vintage HP Calculator is:
Other calculator (please specify) 42s

2) If I could purchase my favorite vintage HP Calculator today, I'd pay:
$100

3) Are you still using this HP Calculator?
No

Why or why not?
I use the 35s now. It actually has better complex number support
for my use than the 42s. Also, the 42s is too valuable for day to
day use:-)

4) What are the top 3 features you like about your favorite vintage HP Calculator?

Feature I like the best: complex number support
Feature I like 2nd best: programming paradigm
Feature I like 3rd best: soft-keys

5) What improvements would you like to see on your favorite vintage HP Calculator?

The 42s would be nearly ideal if it adopted the complex number
entry method of the 35s, had expanded memory, a faster processor,
upload/download of programs and data via usb or sd, and a six line
display showing (from the top) Last x, t, z, y, x and a row of soft
key labels

6) My SECOND favorite vintage HP Calculator is:
HP-15C

7) If I could purchase my SECOND favorite vintage HP Calculator today, I'd pay:
$75

8) Are you still using this HP Calculator?
No

Why or why not?
I use the 35s now. It has better complex number support for my use
than the 15C. Also, the 15C is too valuable for day to day use:-)

9) What are the top 3 features you like about your SECOND favorite vintage HP Calculator?

Feature I like the best: complex number support
Feature I like 2nd best: size and shape
Feature I like 3rd best: extraordinarily accurate functions

10) What improvements would you like to see on your SECOND favorite vintage HP Calculator?

adopt 35s entry method for complex numbers, a 2-line display or
wide display to show real and imaginary at the same time, more
internal memory, a faster processor and upload/download of programs
and data via usb or sd, alpha-numeric display of labels and
function names in program lines.

...

#32

The survey itself is defective, or should I say biased?

It offers a choice between several Voyagers and the 41C series. Nothing else. The most glaring omission is the Pioneers. Perhaps that's why the number one choice is "other".

Does this mean whoever wrote the survey doesn't consider Pioneers to be "vintage"? Or just trying to stack the deck so that 41C gets a plurality?

No, actually, I believe the survey is biased toward the Voyagers. Here's why:

Even though I am a 27s man myself, I would have to say that if one is as objective as possible, considering all the qualities that made HP a success in building calculators for technical fields, the 41C series has to be labeled the best HP ever produced. It would also be the most expensive to re-introduce.

I'll bet if we could see the internals of "other", we would see 42s and 15c at the top. A scientific Voyager would actually be relatively cheap to re-introduce, since HP continues to make the 12c series. Not so cheap a Pioneer.

So forget the 43S. Look for a 15C-II sometime in the future.


#33

Quote:
The survey itself is defective, or should I say biased?

It offers a choice between several Voyagers and the 41C series. Nothing else.


If I had to hazard a guess as to why they've done it that way, it might have to do with memory limitations of their chosen hardware platform (Atmel AT91SAM7L128). It would be easy to use that part to build a Voyager or 41C class calculator, and substantially more difficult to use it for a Pioneer (e.g., 17bii, 19bii, 42s).


#34

Quote:


If I had to hazard a guess as to why they've done it that way, it might have to do with memory limitations of their chosen hardware platform (Atmel AT91SAM7L128). It would be easy to use that part to build a Voyager or 41C class calculator, and substantially more difficult to use it for a Pioneer (e.g., 17bii, 19bii, 42s).


I agree.

Any new "retro" calc will almost certainly use the Atmel processor, so it has to work around the limitations of that processor.

I see there are four options for a new calc:

1) A new voyager scientific

2) A revamped 35S

3) A scientific 20B

4) Something else entirely, like a 41C

Option 4 takes too much effort, and has too much risk, so you are unlikely to see that.

Options 2 and 3 may happen, but they don't require a survey. So they are not what this about.

Smart money would be on option 1 I think. They have a lot of the tooling and risk is minimal. It would also be very "retro" looking. A new 41 would just look like any other calc. The survey stacked in that favour might also be a clue.

Dave.


#35

Time to wake up this draft? It slept quietly in the museum for 3 months now:


#36

Ah, but again, this is something new, not a re-issuance of something old.

That appears to be the subject of the survey.

I assure you that HP saw these pictures at HHC2008 (as they saw Jake and my dream calculators, the HP 45s and HP 80B at HHC2007).

I would urge people to really vote on what they are asking. Clicking OTHER and then asking for an HP 43S machine won't help much, IMO.

:-)


#37

So far I know nobody who voted for any hypothetical calc. You shall not be afraid. But HP asked us for improvements of our favourite models. So there seem to be soft limits, as I will explain for the 15C. Several opportunities come into my mind:

  1. A "simple" reissue of the 15C "as was", except perhaps different batteries and minor cosmetic changes. This would be "a re-issuance of something old" for sure, but how boring! This would just drain TAS a bit, but what's the benefit?
  2. A "15CD" meaning a 15C "as was", but with a modfied display like Jeff requested in his message of 12:39 above. Now that would be a step forward. Do you call this "a re-issuance of something old" still? Why?
  3. A "15S" meaning a 15CD, but with modified keyboard as suggested above. That would be a greater step forward. Do you call this "something new" now? Why?
  4. There may be more innovations (e.g. I/O), increasing the step size. Same questions as above...
So, where do you draw the border line? And why?

Addendum of 16 Oct.: For #3, you may even have the cursor cross on the bezel, if you want it looking more like the old model 25 years ago. When e.g. an old car is re-issued (like the New Beetle or PT Cruiser), you won't buy the standard of 25 years ago, no way! IMHO calculators are not so much different ;)

Edited: 16 Oct 2008, 2:06 a.m.


#38

Quote:
When e.g. an old car is re-issued (like the New Beetle or PT Cruiser), you won't buy the standard of 25 years ago, no way! IMHO calculators are not so much different ;)

This Beetle vs. New Beetle issue is an interesting aspect to HP's survey. I consider the New Beetle NOT to be a re-issue of the old Beetle but rather a new car with memories of the old form and name - which I would not buy. I would have liked the old Beetle form factor with modern technical interior. As I would like to see the old Mercedes 300 SL and the Jaguar E type with new engine and security stuff.

And that would be the same I'd like to see with my favorite HP calculators!


#39

Hi George,

Quote:
I would have liked the old Beetle form factor with modern technical interior. As I would like to see the old Mercedes 300 SL and the Jaguar E type with new engine and security stuff.

You must be a man of taste! The story of the Mini may also interest you. Sometimes, the new stuff (often even required by new standards!) will simply not fit into the old housing. I assume the same for the Beetle. FWIW, I also like the classic Beetle far better than the new one. It was a very reliable car for its time ("if you can find him, you can start him") -- but it was burning too much gas, and if you had to use it in wintertime as I did, you needed a windscreen towel always because of its ineffective ventilation.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter

#40

I don't think the Atmel micro will support a dot matrix LCD that large?
Can't remember the exact details though...

Dave.


#41

Maximum of 400 "segments". The original Voyager used 100. Assuming a 5x7 dot matrix character, you could have 11 characters with up to 15 annunciators. If you want dedicated dot/comma segments between characters, you can have 10 characters.

For more than 400 segments, it would require a separate LCD driver chip, increasing the cost.


#42

Quote:
For more than 400 segments, it would require a separate LCD driver chip, increasing the cost.

What does this mean for less than 8500 pixels? How many US$? Are there any steps in the cost curve? Where?

Looking at Casio's "Natural Display" calculators and their pricing, display drivers cannot be expensive.

TIA

Edited: 16 Oct 2008, 4:31 a.m.


#43

Quote:

What does this mean for less than 8500 pixels? How many US$? Are there any steps in the cost curve? Where?

Looking at Casio's "Natural Display" calculators and their pricing, display drivers cannot be expensive.


They aren't expensive, in the order of $1, not $10

Something like this one:

http://www.sitronix.com.tw/sitronix/product.nsf/Doc/ST7565V?OpenDocument

They are usually integrated with the LCD as COG (Chip On Glass)

BTW, Casio's volumes would be much larger than HP. Order of magnitude at least I suspect.

Dave.

#44

They're not expensive, but they're more expensive than not having them. HP's current platform doesn't have one, so there's at least some engineering effort required to add one. HP currently has VERY limited engineering resources for calculators, although apparently they are trying to increase that somewhat.


#45

OK, I understand building a reasonable calc is more expensive than not building one.

Fundamental decision is: will HP stay successful in this market by selling piano-black but very limited calcs, or do they want more -- becoming the top address for scientific calculating again? I dunno, I am only able to suggest some modest, most imperfect ideas crossing my mind sometimes ... the voice of a single customer who can't shut up.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s (I will take a 15s, too).

Walter

#46

Quote:
They're not expensive, but they're more expensive than not having them. HP's current platform doesn't have one, so there's at least some engineering effort required to add one. HP currently has VERY limited engineering resources for calculators, although apparently they are trying to increase that somewhat.

HP currently have two positions advertised for "Calculating Solutions Design Engineers"

"Qualifications

Education

Bachelor's (undergraduate), Master's (graduate), or Ph.D. (post graduate) degree in computer science, computer engineering, or electrical engineering.

Experience and knowledge

Six or more years of application and driver (DDK) development experience using C/C++ in a PC Windows XP and Vista environments. 2 or more years of application and driver development in Windows CE/Windows Mobile environments. Leading and working with cross-functional teams as well as practical experience in all phases of the software development lifecycle. Must possess expert knowledge (development and application) in Windows and WinCE/Mobile operating systems. Expertise in multiple programming languages and technologies such as RPL/RPN, Java, embedded systems, firmware, assembly, Perl, Shells Script/Korn Shell, USB, MacOS, and Linux will be advantageous. Experience in teaching mathematics, PCB/electronics design experience, and microprocessor knowledge will be helpful. In the end, unmitigated passion for HP Calculators will be critical.

Skills

Software architecture, development, and debugging skills
Strong project management and leadership skills
Analytic ability in order to research technical issues and generate creative/innovative solutions

Ability to work on complex problems and projects

Exercise independent judgment within a fast paced HP Calculator's highly entrepreneurial culture

Rapid learner who can mentor others to bring them along on technologies very specific to handheld calculators.
Fluent in English."

Dave.

Edited: 16 Oct 2008, 5:18 p.m.


#47

Quote:
Must possess expert knowledge (development and application) in Windows and WinCE/Mobile operating systems.
If they put Windows in a calculator, I absolutely will not buy it. I hope they're reading this, because they might as well know right now.

Edited: 16 Oct 2008, 6:24 p.m.


#48

YOU don't have to buy it
I will definately get one HP iPaq Phone Edition (WinCE)
with calculator slide-in keyboard
RPL/2 & xCas by parisse

The EMU48 is already ported to the WinCE
full VGA touch LCD
and one can have as well the old Saturn programs
as totally new full RAM & speed RPL/2 & xCas programs
UserRPL compatibility and CAS compatibility is good enough
Those who seriously program these devices will quickly adapt
It's time to go 32-bit (while PC go 64-bit)
and moce to a new era of animated 3D plotting

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/10/15/nec-3d-screen

2½" is too little and 12" too much, look at
Qonos, Xpander Classpad, Nspire,...

Nobody has 3D animated yet
so HP could start with 2D basic cheap student model
(no WiFi, no GPS, just 3G+2G phone)
and if enough success then maybe, maybe introduce 3D model...

#49

WinCE...

(wince!)

I like my Casio E-11 PDA (WinCE 2.x), I purchased my 3rd one
just a few weeks ago (the other two had broken screens).

It is about 8-9 years old, but has calendar/alarm/clock/task list/notetaker/file storage/contacts/CompactFlash/voice recorder.
I've added a converter program (e.g. metric to english) and
an RPN calc.
The re-chargeable NiMH batteries I have in it run for weeks,
(compared to days in some of the Palm devices I've tried).
and its backup battery keeps the daters intact when the
NiMHs run down.

And XP/Vista experience would help in making a future calc
communicate easily with a PC (USB or whatever).

And I like the fact that when my instructors mentioned the
MIPS processor, I'd hold up the Casio and say, "It's in there!".

If only it had a REAL keyboard (dedicated keys for numbers/functions like a calc) or provision for a Stowaway(TM) kybd.

Ren

dona nobis pacem

#50

Quote:
Look for a 15C-II sometime in the future.

Or maybe I should have said "15C Platinum".

#51

Jeff O.

almost exactly what I've written or would have written, had I written as much...;-) Made the same first and second choices!


#52

Well, I guess great minds think alike ;-)

Seriously, I may have written and asked for too much, but hey, they asked!

By the way, the prices that I said I would pay are not "collector" prices, they are about what I think they should sell for if they were mass produced again and easily available. I'd probably pay a little more, say $125 and $100 respectively, for versions of the the 42s and 15C with my suggested improvements.

#53

FWIW, you'll find an almost perfect lognormal distribution in the answers to question 2.

Ceterum censeo: HP, launch a 43s.

Walter


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