Fake Label Maker



#53

Gentlemen:

Just so you know, I am the guy who has made the fake labels. Rest assured that no calculator has been sold or send or touched the fake labels. What is all this about anyway? I am being portayed like an arch villian... come on.

You say that they are polluting the HP-67 gene pool. Do you realize that people are throwing these calcs out because they do not work anymore? These are very common calculators, not works of art. This is a label...a label on the back of an old HP-67. You are responding like I have harmed a family member or have done some horrible thing.

Why do you repair the gummy wheel?? I put that to the test. Do you realize that you are polluting the the few remaining HP-67s that do still work?? Please respond only on this issue. If they were not fixable then the few remaining non-opened HP-67 that still work would be worth $1000 or $2000. So you see you have devalued those right?
Why do you fix them? I'll tell you, because it's fun to fix them, a challenge and makes them back to the way they used to be.

My intention was not dupe the world of HP calculators. Give that much. I have worked hard to develope a reliable battery and have sold over 170 of them so far. Have any of you worked that hard to restore the use-ablilty of these calcs?

I imagine some of you have fixed hundreds of them and appreciated them very much so I suppose there are many good repairing individuals out there. But I too have paid my dues. By the way revisit the Ebay article, read the bottom. Maybe yet you can turn me from what you perceive as so evil.

I am glad Mike Davis has pointed out all the flaws of the fake labels, it was never my intention to dupe anyone. If I were do not you think I just would have not told anyone and silently stealthly slipped in the fake labels. You see there is still a thread of honestly, maybe a rope of honesty left in me?? This whole thing is nearly comical. What the dealers perceive as a polluting will actually increase the popularity of the HP-67s. People will show them off and use them more if they look nice.

I still may yank them, but I have already received many emails of support. So this issue is not so cut and dry.

Mark Hoskins


#54

You say: "You say that they are polluting the HP-67 gene pool. Do you realize that people are throwing these calcs out because they do not work anymore?"

My comment:
But having a fake label will not stop people from throwing out a non-working calculator, does it? So, your argument fails.

You say:: "Why do you repair the gummy wheel?? I put that to the test. Do you realize that you are polluting the the few remaining HP-67s that do still work??"

My comment:
What a bunch of hogwash! One does not pull a working wheel out to replace it. So it is not polluting anything at all. Replacing a wheel does not require destroying something original and preferred. Only a collector would understand that. So your argument fails.

You say: "If they were not fixable then the few remaining non-opened HP-67 that still work would be worth $1000 or $2000."

My comment:
Working models ARE worth much more than repaired models. One original untouched sold for $1300 with a 65 selling for $2000. They are worth more. You are telling people to replace their acceptable (but maybe not mint) with a FAKE and thereby lower it's value. So, your argument fails.

You say: "So you see you have devalued those right? Why do you fix them?

My comment:
You only devalue it, if you take something working and preferred and replace it with something fake. If someone is not trying to pass it off as original, why make it look the same. So, your premise is wrong and your argument fails.

You say: "I have worked hard to develope a reliable battery and have sold over 170 of them so far. Have any of you worked that hard to restore the use-ablilty of these calcs?"

My comment:
Absolutely, I have restored many more original battery packs that you have ever sold. Further, I have never claimed, as you do (incorrectly so) that these batteries are superior to the originals. So, your argument fails. Many of us have been collecting for decades.

Exactly how long have you been collecting HP calculators? I have been doing it for 30 years. Others have too.

Mike


#55

You say: "You say that they are polluting the HP-67 gene pool. Do you realize that people are throwing these calcs out because they do not work anymore?"

My comment: But having a fake label will not stop people from throwing out a non-working calculator, does it? So, your argument fails.
>>Mike, you have twisted my reply in your favor. No but they may not try to repair it knowing that the label can be replaced. Mike your attitude fails. I am not personally attacking you. These comments are subjective, you take it like I am calling all collectors bad people.

You say:: "Why do you repair the gummy wheel?? I put that to the test. Do you realize that you are polluting the the few remaining HP-67s that do still work??"

My comment: What a bunch of hogwash! One does not pull a working wheel out to replace it. So it is not polluting anything at all. Replacing a wheel does not require destroying something original and preferred. Only a collector would understand that. So your argument fails.

Mike>> This reply is the most interesting your answer is that I can not understand. Understand what? I have 7 HP-67s, all the classics and several 41CVs and manuals and many other boxes etc. Your definition of a collector is not mine. You call me a reseller, but you resell too, and you demand top dollar for your efforts. This is the main arguement and your reply is that I can not understand. Yet is not all of engineering understanding and correcting our mistakes? By having so many that work now you are lowering the value of those that are mint. How would someone know if they are mint or not, as you fixed it. The original labels can be straightened.

You say: "If they were not fixable then the few remaining non-opened HP-67 that still work would be worth $1000 or $2000."

My comment: Working models ARE worth much more than repaired models. One original untouched sold for $1300 with a 65 selling for $2000. They are worth more. You are telling people to replace their acceptable (but maybe not mint) with a FAKE and thereby lower it's value. So, your argument fails.
Mike>> I have not seen that on Ebay at all, but I am not saying your exaggerating. Mint ones sell on Ebay for around $300-$400 with the box from obvious lone owners. You must be quoting selling them somewhere else in the last 6 months or I missed them.

You say: "So you see you have devalued those right? Why do you fix them?

My comment: You only devalue it, if you take something working and preferred and replace it with something fake. If someone is not trying to pass it off as original, why make it look the same. So, your premise is wrong and your argument fails.
Mike>> If you would step down for a minute from the soap box and listen I have to say? Instead of attacking me, why not look for reasonable compromises. Why not I round off the corners of my FAKE labels? In such a way then it would be obvious that they are fake duplicates. I could send you a picture.

You say: "I have worked hard to develope a reliable battery and have sold over 170 of them so far. Have any of you worked that hard to restore the use-ablilty of these calcs?"

My comment: Absolutely, I have restored many more original battery packs that you have ever sold. Further, I have never claimed, as you do (incorrectly so) that these batteries are superior to the originals. So, your argument fails. Many of us have been collecting for decades.

Mike>> They were superior in my tests compared to the text in the HP manuals. Therefore since I tested them such the statement was made. And I appreciate your dedication, please note mine somewhere low on your list. Have you fixed or built 170 in 6 months? I do not think so. Mike this forum is not a WWWF wrestling match. I have always treated you with respect even though I have received so few positive comments back. I will continue to treat you with respect because I believe that you are honest, hard working and dedicated to this hobby. Over time you will see that I am also. Good night my friend.

Exactly how long have you been collecting HP calculators? I have been doing it for 30 years. Others have too.

Mike


#56

Sorry but I can't follow your logic.

But in case you are interested:

Recent HP-67

Recent HP-65

Bottom line: Round cornere my foot. If you were not trying to play on people using these as original, Why don't you simply print "Replica Label" on them?

We have a basic difference in philosophy about collecting. I am a purist. I restore vintage HP calculators and sell many from my collection. I also repair HP calculators for other collectors for FREE. I don't have time to repair as many as I would like but don't charge anyone for repairs.

I don't claim mine are better than original and certainly don't use counterfeit anything.

I don't intend to debate this with you. My intention is only to warn people that fakes are coming into the market. I have no part in that, do you?


#57

Sorry but I can't follow your logic.

But in case you are interested:

Recent HP-67 (Sale for 1350.00)

Recent HP-65 (Sale for $2000.00+)

The above are NIB sales not at all what I was talking about.

Mike the logic goes like this. If no one worked on HP-67s card readers. If no one repaired them at all, some high percentage of them would have broken card readers. ALL card reading HP-67s would sell for $1,000 to $2,000. All non reading ones for $100 or some much lower percentage. That is the simple truth. Why do you show me NIB sales?

I repeat. Fixing the card reader devalues the remaining ones that do still work. Why is that wrong in a hypothetical perspective? That perspective directly relates to any repair of the HP-67.

I have one right now a non opened functioning HP-67. In you anger and frustration you'll say I replaced the label. Hardly and as we remove it together you'd find otherwise.

Remember this is hypothetical, I love repairing them and so do you. I respect your desire for a pure label world and I am taking steps to reprint the labels. But my premise is quite accurate. My wife is going to kill me for staying up this late. I hope both of our wives forgive us for this bizzare battle.

#58

Funny hearing Mike talk about ethics


#59

Interesting, to hear an innuendo from someone that does not have the courage, to use their real name.

But that is what usually happens when one does not have any argument to the real topic.


#60

Maybe. However, 67 owner is right. Based on your behavior on this board, ebay, and elsewhere, you don't care about anyone but yourself.

#61

Mike,

I think Your only problem with these replica labels is,
that someone could use them to make higher profits on ebay than You try to do! First buying nearly everything in a special field (now You are in the HP-71 business), pushing
the price level up, and then trying to sell with high reserve price on ebay again? I am not sure how many of us
collectors like this "business model".
I can speak for myself only, but if I have a calculator
with damaged label in my collection, I would use one of these replicas to fix it, but only if it looks (to some
degree of detail) like the original one. I must think
of older restored cars with stickers all over the paint telling "replica paint", funny?


#62

You are losing focus

You sayI think Your only problem with these replica labels is, that someone could use them to make higher profits on ebay than You try to do!

I say: That is a bald face lie. There is no way that these labels have anything to do with what I or others get from selling items vintage restored calculators. What it does do is cause people to destroy original labels. THAT is the problem we are discussing.

FAKE labels will never sell for more than original labels. If anything, it makes my calculators worth more, since I don't resort to using FAKE labels. That is why I have hundreds of repeat customers.

But this is not about me or what you think about me. It is about counterfeit labels, remember?

But you are free to do as you like.


#63

I think it's a bit of a stretch to think that replica labels will cause people to destroy the original labels. How do you come to this conclusion? I don't see the motivating forces.


#64

How else would you get one on, without taking one off?


#65

One would use a replica label when the original label was thrashed from normal use. If the label is already thrashed, replace it with a replica. Fine. But to say that replica labels provide some motivation to destroy the original label is ridiculous. Why would anyone destroy the original label just to replace it with a replica?

See, Mike, you should want the replica labels out on the market because it boosts the values of your calculators with original labels. You say you're not in this hobby for the money, but your actions tell a different story.


#66

I probably should not continue with this discussion but since you are at least civil, I will answer you ....

You say:
But to say that replica labels provide some motivation to destroy the original label is ridiculous. Why would anyone destroy the original label just to replace it with a replica?

I say:
They wouldn't, IF they were marked Replica but if they were near identical, why not? I mean, I wouldn't, but I take great care in removing and restoring labels but others that aren't purists, would just rip it off and replace it with an new one. I'm a purist and take great care in not destroying the original.

That's what HP did. But they had real labels.

You say:
See, Mike, you should want the replica labels out on the market because it boosts the values of your calculators with original labels.

I say: How so? I don't follow this logic at all. I am a purist and don't want to see originals destroyed. I'm not the only one saying this. Others don't like counterfeit labels either. It has absolutely nothing to do with selling or buying. It has to do with keeping HP calculators as original as possible.

You say: You say you're not in this hobby for the money, but your actions tell a different story.

I say: I never said any such thing. I have not said this at all, but I'm not in it ONLY for the money. And, I am not a dealer.

I spend a great deal of time and money restoring HP calculators. Nothing wrong with that. I sell back some of what I restore. My fun, comes from the "value added" by making something work that did not work before I got it.

I have a great HP-67 that I'm holding onto, just waiting for a trashed 67 that has a good label. I would never put a counterfeit label on it just to make a buck. I know you don't believe that because you are a cynical. If I was as you suggest, I would have just bought the fakes and used them. The fact that I don't disproves what you are saying.

Believe it or not, I have a counterfeit label. A guy from Malasia sent me one, just to see if I would use them. I declined and just use it to compare against others. I posted a photo of it last year.

I also repair for other collectors and do it for free. The only thing I charge for is return shipping. All you ever see it the end of an auction. You don't know me or anything about what I really do or what I'm really like.

If I was in this for the money, I would charge other collectors. But I don't.

You are barking up the wrong tree, if you think I'm in this just for the money.


#67

Mike, you say:

"I have a great HP-67 that I'm holding onto, just waiting for a trashed 67 that has a good label. I would never put a counterfeit label on it just to make a buck. I know
you don't believe that because you are a cynical. If I was as you suggest, I would have just bought the fakes and used them. The fact that I don't disproves what you
are saying."

What kind of calculator does this create? It seems to me that you can no longer call it an "original" -- it is some form of hybrid, better, but to a purist only marginally so, than a calculator with a fake/duplicate/reproduction/etc. label.

Dave

#68

I, and dozens of others from whom I received emails, agree completely with you, HP-67 User2

#69

and I agree 100%.

#70

And it's the same thing everyone says when they sell fakes on ebay and most of the time I'm sure it's true. However in the past, items sold openly as reproductions have turned up on ebay again without any mention of their history. When sellers are caught they claim ignorance. Who knows, maybe they really didn't know.

I guess that's why ebay's list of prohibited items includes counterfeit items:

"Not allowing these items on the site protects you from liability and helps make eBay a safe place for trading. Selling or buying any of these items could put you at risk for civil or criminal liability. Your auction could be ended early and you may be suspended from eBay. ... Sellers routinely selling the same types of items should take steps to satisfy themselves that the items are authentic before listing them on eBay. Sellers are responsible for the items they sell and disclaimers (e.g., "I cannot guarantee the authenticity of this item, so please bid accordingly") usually have no legal effect and do not protect the seller from potential liability."

I'm sure it was unintentional but you're getting yourself into a messy area.

#71

There are two sides to every coin... I feel that there is nothing wrong with repro labels, people make reproduction control panel overlays for arcade machines, and if you think about it, would you rather have a Pac Man machine with a worn to heck control panel and dinged up paint that was original, or have a Pac Man machine that has been restored with new paint and a new reproduction control panel overlay? Also, some people have been touching up the silver trim on old calculators with a little new paint, there is nothing wrong with that. I do, however, feel that reproduction labels should probably only be used when the calculator in question has a particularly bad, unsaveable label. As far as batteries go, I think the idea of new, from scratch battery packs is wonderful. Just think of how many batteries packs are no longer rebuildable due to leakage, corrosion, and other assorted damage. And yes, if Mr. Hoskins used higher capacity cells in his packs, and since he included a tab to help remove it from the calculator, then you could say that they would be superior to the original, function wise anyway. I am not saying that you _should_ use repro calculator labels, I am just saying that they could really help fix up the appearance of an otherwise crummy looking calculator. There are good and bad uses for repro labels, the good being that it allows people to clean up a worn calculator, and the bad being those who are dishonest enough to try and pass it off as an original. Just my two cents.

Ian Primus
ian_primus@yahoo.com


#72

Then, if it is a matter of just making a crumby calculator usable, why not simply state on the label that it is a Replica lable?

[AND] Why not put a warning that using the label may devalue the calculator?

I'll tell you why, because there is a deliberate attempt to pass it off as original.

Why not do it like this:

No, the intention is to sell these such that people buying them can pass them off as original. He is aiding the fraudlent use of these labels.

Clearly labeling it as a "Replica" would remove any doubt of it being original and would improve looks, IF that was all that he was after.


#73

No, the intention is to sell these such that people buying them can pass them off as original. He is aiding the fraudlent use of these labels.

Mike>> This is your interpretation and quite incorrect. If I was so devious, why did I sell them so openly with such a poor reproduction? Not a very good idea huh? I wanted the common calculator owner to see what his calculator looked like 25 years ago. How many times have you taken something apart and regretted it as such an effort damaged the original? I've done it severla times.

Fraud is duplicating US currency or a work of art or something that has a trademark on it. Nothing here falls in those categories. It is your opinion that these labels devalue the past. You also believe that you are protecting your investments. I'll respect that.

Although I am not convince about that, I am taking steps to reissue the labels with a "Replica Label" sticker.


#74

mr. hoskins; i think that having the labels say "replica label" is a good idea anyway; lawyers being what they are. that way no one down the road can get (or say they were) fooled. i don't see what the beef is though. my bsa would be a heap of oxides without pattern parts coppied from the originals and made in tiwan. the replacements are not looked down on for motorcycles, they are just not worth quite as much. i may be missing something here but i think you are providing a service.


#75

The labels will be sold with the words REPLICA LABEL on them. I do not really agree, but I will honor the wishes of the longtime dedicated dealers

#76

I just looked up fraud and counterfeit just to make sure and neither is limited to "US currency or a work of art or something that has a trademark on it." For example:

Counterfeit: To make a copy of, usually with the intent to defraud. To make fraudulent copies of something valuable.

Fraud: A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

Perhaps legal definitions are different than dictionary definitions and we could argue about how important the "usually" is in the definition of counterfeit but for our use I think it is fair to call these counterfeits that could/might be used by someone (not you) for fraudulent purposes.

I'm glad you're going to change them to make their origin clear.

As for fixing card readers - I think the same goes there - it should be kept out in the open. On some valuable old items, repairers leave notes or marks inside an access cover to let people know what's been done.

This is a little different because a well fixed card reader in many people's minds is an improvement because you never know when an old card reader will turn to mush. Therefore it's likely that repaired card readers will be labeled honestly since they may bring more money. With repaired labels I think there is always going to be incentive to cover up the fact because the replacement will not be seen as better. Also these labels could have been used to cover up repairs that might not seem so desirable - like massive battery leaks. I would really prefer a calc that never had a leak to one that had been repaired because I would never feel sure that it was all cleaned up. Someone who had repaired a battery leak might want to cover it up with a label and sell it as like new.

In any case, the "repro" on the label should make everyone happy.

Thank you Mark.

#77

Can we all just get along?

I would like to request MORE fake labels of different models. I would like to see these available for all HPs which have labels on the back. I have an HP-35 which needs a new fresh label, my corners are wrinkled. If the restoration labels have a discrepancy can you please correct it so they look identical to the originals? Don't clip the corners please.

Also, I need a new front label for the HP-80. The one I have is peeling off and has a crease in it. I like my calculator collection to look as good as new. This is historical restoration we are talking about here, not counterfeiting. Go visit any historical site and you'll find entire buildings that have been re-constructed, they're not completely original but you still get the idea of the history when you visit them.

Is there any source for counterfeit silver paint? I'd like to restore my HP-45 which has almost none left. I've used the testors silver paint pen in the past but it dries more greyish than chrome-colored.

-guv.


#78

Hiall,

I don't want to sell my HP or cheat nobody. I just want to use my calcs and keep them in good shape.

For this I need the front plate of 42S, 11C and 15C is it avaliable?

I think Mr. Hoskins is opening a new market for doyourself restoration.

What about spiral bound manuals and HP plastic logos?

I really think that many of us are waiting for an old HP calculator parts supplier.

Pio

#79

After reading all the posts, I think Mike Davis et al. are overreacting about the sale of replica labels.

First, the manufacture of repair parts or replica parts by parties other than the OEM manufacturer has been going on for years. In my view, the situation here is analogous to fixing a classic automobile.

For example, Ford no longer makes water pumps or fenders for the classic 1965 Mustang. However, there are many Mustang enthusiasts and collectors that need those parts for their classic Mustang. As a result, several companies offer replica water pumps or fenders for the Mustang. Everybody knows that the parts came from a third party manufacturer, and that it's not original. Yet nobody has charged that 1965 Mustangs that use those parts "pollute" the population of Mustangs. On the contrary, Mustang collectors are grateful to have another specimen available.

The same logic applies to our calculators. HP no longer makes the classic calculator labels (much less the calculators!), so third parties have decided to produce them. I don't see anything wrong with making a replica part where an original is no longer made by the OEM manufacturer and is otherwise not available.

I see this as the natural evolution of the calculator collecting hobby. Since the calculator collecting hobby has become more popular in recent years, it's perfectly reasonable for people to begin offering replica parts that are no longer made, as has happened in the automobile collecting/restoration hobby. This takes the hobby to the next level: Like classic cars, one purchasing a classic calculator must be diligent to know exactly what they are getting.

One comment about the fraud issue. Fraud requires an intent to deceive. Mr. Hoskins has made it plain he is not intending to deceive anyone by selling his labels. However, there will likely be some unscrupulous sellers trying to pass off an HP-67 with a replica label as having an original label. But, since Mr. Davis has so graciously pointed out the differences between the orginal label and the replica, we all now know what to look for.

I think Mark is doing the hobby a great service by offering these replica labels.

Todd


#80

One of the major reasons for a label is to cover access screws on the HP-67 and other calculators. This is a way to know if a calculator has been opened and possibly been repaired or damaged.

A perfect replica label can allow people to take a perfectly good label off repair, change or even botch a repair, then replace the label and claim it is mint. Labels must and should be easily identified as replica.

Even your OEM stuff is easily identifiable from original. But the attempt to make duplicate, counterfeit labels is wrong. No OEM tries to make an identical OEM part to fool someone as being original.

This is not an overreaction on my part. It is also the reason that posting links to such things has been removed in the past from the forum.

Second, the use of a label requires the destruction of the original. In other OEM parts that you talk about, the original is not destroyed for the most part. It is just removed and can be rebuilt or kept for restoration at a later date.


#81

Sounds like contrary and inconsistent statements to me. Or maybe I missed something...

You said that the replicas must and should be identified as replicas. You also said the replicas Hoskins wants to sell are easily identifiable over the orignal labels. You even showed us with pictures!

OK, if Mark's labels are already easily identifed as replicas, and we come across a calculator that has a replica label, we can ask the owner whether the unit has been opened, etc. THANKS TO YOU, WE KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR! Since you can tell the difference quite readily, I don't understand the problem with selling replica labels in the first place.

I also don't follow your comment about requiring destruction of the original label and how it is different from water pumps and fenders because water pumps and fenders are removed, and possibly rebuilt or restored. That scenario doesn't seem to fit the facts. If that was the case in the automotive field, there would not be a market for third-party replica parts (because all the original parts would be rebuilt or restored), or manufacturers of such parts. But it's a huge industry with a big demand! There are plenty of people openly selling replica parts (including labels and stickers) for every conceivable piece of restorable equipment or machinery.

Replica parts production occurs in many other collecting hobbies, and is well accepted. What's the difference here? I can't see it.

Seems to me that you're reading into this some nefarious conspiracy that simply isn't there.


#82

It is rather easy to rationalize by those wanting to use them or sell them. But I assure you most HP collectors understand the concept of "original" vs "counterfeit" and "restored" vs "destroyed and replaced."

You said: You said that the replicas must and should be identified as replicas. You also said the replicas Hoskins wants to sell are easily identifiable over the orignal labels. You even showed us with pictures!

I showed photos because they are NOT easily identified. Only a very careful comparrison can determine this. I doubt that most could tell the difference.

If they were easily identified, I would not have had to show photos. Let me say one other thing. If this was just to improve looks and not deceive, why is there a need for USA versions vs SINGAPORE versions. It is so you can fool someone.


#83

Mike, I do not understand your position because you do not present any rational evidence to support it. Instead, you present bombastic "slippery slope" arguments that suggest conspiratorial "pollution" of the pool of classic calculators if replica labels are used. Made me laugh, BTW. Quick! Call Scully and Mulder!!

If "purist" collectors, such as yourself, do not want to use or collect calculators with replica labels, then don't. But why should you prevent a non-collector from simply freshening up his trusty HP-67 simply because you, Mr. Purist, think it's a bad idea? You forget that lots of these old units are still USED by people every day, and those people are NOT collectors. I say give the non-collector the opportunity to restore his old friend with a fresh label, albeit a replica. But purists can still insist on calculators with the original label. In other words, both can coexist.

You have offered not one shred of evidence that the labels will be used for deceitful purposes. Instead, you ASSUME they will be used for deceitful ends, even after being presented with analogous situations from other hobbies where the same replica labels are accepted. What makes calculator collecting so different to warrant a change in human behavior? Besides, you showed the world what to look for on the replicas. Now we are aware of the differences, and can make our own decisions about what to collect. End of story.



#84

I answered your direct question and you compare it to something you did not ask. No wonder you are not confused. Blowing smoke does not change anything.

I quoted exactly what you said and provided a direct answer. Not too difficult to understand.

Also you said:If "purist" collectors, such as yourself, do not want to use or collect calculators with replica labels, then don't.

I say:
I won't but the problem is that people will sell these to others, without divulging that they are fakes. We get taken. They claim "I didn't know it was a fake."

I do understand your, though, since you are one of the ones that plans to use FAKE labels. I say that because you were one of the bidders.


#85

Mike's post titled: You are hopeless (a response to Todd) is below in italics.

I answered your direct question and you compare it to something you did not ask. No wonder you are not confused. Blowing smoke does not change anything.

"Blowing smoke..." ?? I read Todd's post, and he didn't seem to be blowing smoke to me. He presented a polite, reasonable post. You replied with a post full of bile---starting with a title that is insulting. I don't even know Todd, but he seems to be a reasonable guy. You come off as a jerk.

I quoted exactly what you said and provided a direct answer. Not too difficult to understand.

Also you said:If "purist" collectors, such as yourself, do not want to use or collect calculators with replica labels, then don't.

I say: I won't but the problem is that people will sell these to others, without divulging that they are fakes. We get taken. They claim "I didn't know it was a fake."

Wait a minute..."We get taken" ?? I thought you could tell the difference! Who is "we"? You seem very interested in protecting others! Unfortunately, I know from a previous E-mail exchange with you (regarding your non-PayPal acceptance policy) that Mike only looks out for Mike. Your disdain and distrust of all eBay bidders (apparently even those who have sent you laudatory E-mail regarding your post in the MoHPC Articles) is on record.

I do understand your, though, since you are one of the ones that plans to use FAKE labels. I say that because you were one of the bidders.

Oooooh. That was a clever attack, Mike. Oh my God...Todd had the gall to bid on one of those!?! Clearly, Todd's "hopeless"ness is proven by the fact that he actaully bid on one of these labels. Sheeesh.

Mike, you are the one who is hopeless.

Bruce.


#86

I put this in a separate thread because I don't like to mix points.

eBay is always a bidder and buyer beware situation. You have to know who you are dealing with. Bidders can be selective, sellers cannot.

Sellers

PayPal, for those of you that don't know, allows bidders to make a purchase, pay, and then issue a charge-back, even if you don't ever get your item back.

You can lose both your item and your payment

PayPal is a very unsecure means of payment.

Most of you know that your Credit Cards have a protection policy that requires companies that accept it, to take back an item. Normally, when you deal with a store that is no big deal. You give the item back, they check it and issue you a refund.

But when you deal with the internet, you don't have that face to face meeting to exchange things.

A bidder can demand a charge-back and you may NEVER get your item back. PayPal has no way of verifying that you ever got your item back.

Here is how it works: Bidder bids on an item, pays with PayPal, gets the item, sends back an empty box with tracking, demands a charge-back and you have been defrauded.

I have asked this of PayPal and they acknowlege that this is possible. That is why they have a WARNING about credit card chargebacks.

If you doubt this, ask PayPal how they guarantee that you will get your item back. I mean proof that you actually get the real item back. They don't even know what was sent.

Bidders
On the other hand, can choose who they buy from. The bidder can verify the seller from the feedback. Yes, the feedback is not 100% but when people have many hundreds of positive and ZIP negative, that is a very good sign that they can be trusted to send the actual item.

But it is amazing how some of these people are not sticking to the point of the thread and choosing instead to attack people. I wonder of their motives.


#87

Because of what I have read on the net, I have recently quit taking paypal.

Do a search on yahoo for "paypal problem" and read the horror stories.

Regarding the label controversy, having it say "replicated label" is fine with me.

AFter all, I know of a disreputable collector who MADE a red-dot HP-35. He showed me a picture of it as he did it and you could not tell the difference. He later stole several calculators from Wlodek and myself.

Live and learn.
Gene

#88

"Here is how it works: Bidder bids on an item, pays with PayPal, gets the item, sends back an empty box with tracking, demands a charge-back and you have been defrauded."

At the moment a person sends an empty box with tracking and claims they are shipping a specific item, even if the clerk doesn't catch or care if the paper work is filled out or not becomes mail fraud. How. If there is a record of the shipping and they claim a calculator that weighs 5 oz, but the box weighs 7 oz and the shipment was 8 oz then it didn't contain anything but a little packing. Also, you have the right to turn a package over to the USPS if it arrives empty. It doesn't have to be insured. Then the USPS will start watching that person for mail fraud. Jail time for mail fraud is a lot worse than a fine for an illeagal chargeback.

#89

You said: Polite and reasonible

You call "Made me laugh, BTW. Quick! Call Scully and Mulder!!"

You call this innuendo as polite. It was completely uncalled for.

You also said: Your disdain and distrust of all eBay bidders...

Where on earth do you come up with this... because I would not let you use PayPal? Give me a break. Don't jump on me because I would not let you use PayPal. Lot's of people don't accept PayPal.

I have nothing but the best customers. Many hundreds of repeat customers. I don't know where you come off for straying from the subject to make these false assertions.


#90

Your over active defense leads me to quote Shakespear. "Me thinks he doth protest to much."

I know Bruce and I don't know you. However from your exchange of words with everyone, that I don't care if I get to. I don't feel I want to deal with you either.

No, I don't care for the idea of counterfiet labels, but Mark has agreed to label them Replica's. As to having to do so, if Hp has not put a copyright tag or Hp logo on the labels, he could probably do so with no repercussions.

Your initial arguement had merit, but you are continuing to beat a dead horse and also have brought to light other issues that you would have probably been better off not raising.

Your motives are now in question, and that wasn't the reason for your initial response. You should have just made your point. Won. and let the issue speak for itself.

As it is, I won't be bidding on any of your auctions knowingly.

#91

Bruce, you're absolutely right and you're not the only
one who has suffered this guy. The problem with him is
twofold: on the one hand, he's making a big business out
of taking everything on sight and selling it again at
preposterous prices to HP collectors, and so he's fearful
that someone could take some cents out of his profits.
He couldn't care less if the person is offering a worthwhile and needed service because as you said, he can't see beyond himself and his own personal profit, never mind poor
hp collectors, so he's hardly an objective person to critizice anyone doing that. Being both a part and judge isn't fair, sir.

On the other hand, you're also right to say he treats
each and everyone of his would-be customers as if they were
some kind of servants, lower classes or so when compared to himsel. A year or so ago I tried to buy an HP-71 from him on ebay, but before bidding I asked if he would accept a perfectly viable and secure means of payment other than the ones he does accept. Of course he's perfectly entitled to chose not to, but at least he could say so in a POLITE,
kind way. Instead of that he got into a nearly-paranoid rage and attacked me for not abiding to his rules and nearly insulted me. That was the last thing I would expect a would-be seller to do to a willing would-be customer. He
despised me, told me that he didn't care at all about doing business with me as he had so many clients abiding to his rules, and more or less to go to hell with my money.

Frankly, after that, being an educated person, I decided I would NEVER ever buy ANYTHING from this guy no matter how much I could be interested in the item, and told all my many collector friends about him. I'm sure he wouldn't care less, being such an inflated ego, but he's certainly lost lots of easy money that could have gone his way, as neither myself nor my friends are shy of high prices at all and
normally buy using 'Buy It Now', regardless of the price.

So, the attacks from this fellow to Mr. Hoskins are just
that, a pathetic rant from an extremely greedy guy
who's afraid to lose even a penny. As we say, "penny wise,
pound fool": he has already LOST so much money with his
attitude towards his would-be clients that the replica
labels are but minuatiae in comparison.


#92

Your assertions never happened and you know it. Furthermore, the fact that you have to use an alias does not lend to any sort of credibility.

I have only ever had but one lengthy conversation regarding PayPal (stated above), with one person. He and I disagree on the merits of PayPal. That is a fact. I make no alibi for that. It's just my policy. No one else has ever demanded that I use PayPal.

I stand by my record and you can ask anyone that ever purchased anything from me that uses their real name.


#93

Your record is a bit spotty. Especially in the customer relations area. Just look at the venom you've posted recently. Respect for customers. Yeah, right. Gimme a break.

#94

Bruce. I, and others, agree 100%. Thanks.

#95

You said that the replicas must and should be identified as replicas. You also said the replicas Hoskins wants to sell are easily identifiable over the orignal labels. You even showed us with pictures!

Please understand that not every HP collector visits this site on a regular basis. (Or at all.)

Even now after 7 years of operation I still get emails from people saying things like: Great site! I thought I was the only one who collected these things!

Naturally I think all collectors should do their best to be informed but I'm also glad that Mark is helping to inform the ones who won't see Mike's pictures.

#96

I've read this thread from the beginning, and I had mixed fellings about the situation. I am familiar with Mr.Mark Hoskins and with what he is doing, however Mr.Todd Garabedian hit the nail right on the head " One purchasing a classic calculator must be diligent to know exactly what they are getting." Isn't it the main part of the hobby?.
My regards to Mr. Mark Hoskins for the way he has handled this ordeal.

#97

In fact, when Mark asked me via email to weigh in on this, I originally assumed he was the same person but I was wrong.

I forwarded the question to HP and the answer was that HP probably wouldn't object as long as "HP", "Hewlett Packard" and any HP logos were removed. It was also suggested that the person or company making the replicas mark them as such. (Either as Mark plans to do or like: "Label by Mark Hoskins".) These seem like simple and sensible requests.

Selling products with another company's name or trademark is illegal in most parts of the world. I can tell that Mark knows this from his auction description but I'm mentioning this for the others who requested more and better fakes.

Non-trademarked replicas (with no "replica" warning) are more controversial. In some established markets they are strongly frowned upon and in some they appear to be accepted. I use the word "appear" only because I don't happen to be familiar with the markets where people have said it's OK and don't know all the details. Some companies in Taiwan for example will make anything you want and will label it with any trademark you like and "made in" any country you like, but many of these are illegal in the US and many other countries. That doesn't mean that you can't easily find them however.

Also I believe many of the laws (in the US at least) regarding replacement parts are different for vehicles than for most other goods. Someone else mentioned buildings but it's hard to "pull a fast one" with a building since you can drop by the city planning department and check its history. Also I don't think there's much in the way of intellectual property protection for buildings.

I can think of another collectable that is roughly as "young" as calculators and this subject is controversial there as well. I suppose it takes some time for each group of collectors to make up their collective mind on this.

In two collectable markets that I know of, people have taken a single original product and intermixed its parts with replica parts to make two or three units, which were then all sold as "real". When caught they claimed they must have been "repaired". These are markets where the originals are fairly low tech and a complete fake can be made for a fraction of the cost of an original. I believe nothing similar has happened in HP calculators but as technology and old HP prices rise, it could someday.

I think that clearly marking the reproductions is a sensible approach that should make most people happy. Those people who are concerned about collectible value will have some assurance that they are getting what they are paying for. Those people who just want to keep an old calculator going shouldn't find their usability impaired by the addition and/or subtraction of a few letters. If you feel that it does, I believe you can safely recreate a trademark at home. (But I'm not a lawyer and that's not legal advice!)

#98

The US has a (little known) law called the "Hobby Protection Act". It requires reproductions of collectibles to be clearly identified as such. It was originally intended to be applied to thinks like fake antiquities (especially coins). The word REPLICA must be affixed to the item in a way that cannot be removed (i.e. by engraving or stamping). Items too small to contain the fully word can just use the letter "R".

#99

My first Classic was a 45 with the label still firmly attached and perforated to give access to the screws. As a low-end collector (not interested in mint condition) who likes to open the machines from time to time, I would like a replacement (as opposed to a reproduction) label with holes and the graphics rearranged slightly if neccesary to avoid the holes. In the case of the 45, I would like the instructions for the stopwatch function added to the label, so I won't have to fire up the PC and look on the MOHPC CDs everytime I want to show it off! I have another 45 with no label, I've intended to scan the label on the first one and print a copy to stick on the second one. Maybe I'll be able to buy a label from Mark. Also, his Classic battery looks pretty good, although my first reaction was "Hey, I can do that!" And regarding the parachute launcher, I don't want to discourage a young engineer, but I've got to say - "You're going to put somebody's eye out!"

This is Snaipah the Great here:

I'd like to make the backs of some of my Voyager series calculators look new again. Can you please make labels for the Voyager series?

Snaipah, MD, JD, PhD, DVM, DPM, DVD, CD, RW, 24x/10x/40x, LCD, LSI, TTL, CMOS, the Great


While he's about it, perhaps he could make the rest of the calculator to go with it?

We can do it for an initial investment of $50MM Plant and Equipment, piece price $10/ea, we need a minimum 100K piece order and a $5MM tooling plus a $500K set up charge for each production run. Due to HP's desire not to license the HP logo and original artwork the label will not be an exact reproduction. We may not be the cheapest but will be the best!!
Labels-R-We.


Good. When can you get the pre-production samples to me?


18mo. following Funds Transfer.


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