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PPC MODULE



#2

I just acquired an HP-41CV with a PPC module. Can anyone tell me How to test if it is functioning? I am new to this HP game.
Thanks


#3

Hi,

The hp museum DVD has a pdf file that contains teh entire PPC ROM manual. I encourage you to get the museum\s DVD or teh individual CD that has that manual. Please consult the museum links to examine your options.

Namir


#4

...and don't forget to read that manual from cover to cover. It was a labor of love :-)

Jake


#5

Indeed it was ... and if I may add at a time when email and the internet were not available as they are today. Think how things would be easily done with email and internet!

Namir

#6

A couple of basic tests you can run:

With it installed in an HP-41CV, perform a CATALOG 2. You should see many programs with two-letter-labels.

Execute "DT" (but be careful!). The display will light up all segments and indicators. When the program halts (important) press the PRGM button, and then R/S, to get the calculator back to where it belongs. The flag register has been modified synthetically, and the original flag register resides in the X-register. Taking the calculator out of PRGM mode (which it was left in by the DT program) and pressing Run/Stop allows the program to copy the X-register value back to the flag register.

Dan

#7

Namir was faster than me :-) and his advice is indeed the best thing to do.

For a quick check you can try 49, XEQ alpha IF alpha. And you should see the 'BAT' anunciator go on. XEQ alpha IF alpha again to clear it.

Cheers

Peter

Edited: 29 Aug 2008, 11:44 a.m.

#8

The PPC ROM is a lovely little gizmo and part of computing history. I have coveted one from time to time but have found them too expensive. However, I have been able to use various utilities to convert favourite text listings to raw files then barcode PDF files which I would print and wand in. My particular favourite is the tiny IG routine--numerical integration by the Romberg Method, basically a somewhat simpler version of what got built into the 34C and 15C. Good fun, and a sample of tight and economical synthetic code.

Have fun!

Les


#9

Consider getting a Clonix. You get 6 pages that you can burn just about any ROM image into (including PPC). And its reusable. E.g. you could put the Advantage ROM (3 pages), Ext I/O (1 page), and PPC (2 pages) into a single Clonix module.

$(Clonix + Burner) < $(PPC).


#10

Egan, this is just an hypothetical musing since it may be somehow immoral or illegal, but is it possible to work with a Clonix user to, presumably for a fair cost, burn such a custom module for me? I must say I don't hear of that being regularly done--is such a practice contrary to copyright or some understanding with the seller of Clonix? I do have one custom built module--a 2-in-1 xmem module from Jon Ibarra--but think this is a physical customization, not a clone.

Really interested. I can't say I have come across anyone using Clonix to burn modules for other users for a cost. I can gather that using the device for profit is not encouraged.

Les


#11

AFAIK, the ROMs are in the public domain (although based on some past posts here I think that is disputable). Does that give an individual the right to sell them? Probably not. Can someone with burning equipment burn a Clonix for you provided that you supply the image? Sure. Can they do it for a fee? I do not see why not, but it is not very neighborly. All we have is this community. Acts of friendship strengthen the community. However, if someone was burdened with 100s of request a week, then I think a reasonable fee would need to be established (e.g. FixThatCalc). IOW, taking advantage of someone in either case is not very neighborly.

That all said I think it is irrelevant. The Clonix burner is a relatively inexpensive USB device. Since Clonix is an EEPROM it can be used over and over again, so it would be in your best interest to have one as well. In your case someone would need to confirm that it works with Windows running under virtualization with OS/X. I'll pick up a Mac and let you know within a month (I've tested other USB devices/drivers under XP with VMware and OS/X without issue).

Another option for you is NoVRAM. This is an HEPAX-like module with 16, 32, or 64K of RAM. If you have HP-IL and only want to use 4K and 8K modules (no Advantage ROM because it is 12K), then you can transfer ROM images via HP-IL directly into NoVRAM. The RAM is static and retains its state even if removed. (I did this with PPC and Sandmath).

If you get a burner and NoVRAM then you have the best of both worlds because NoVRAM has the same 24K of EEPROM that Clonix does, so you could wipe the HEPAX ROM and replace it with 6 pages of anything you like (even Advantage). The RAM would be useless until the HEPAX ROM was restored.

IMHO, get a burner, you'll have more fun.

Just my $0.02 US.

Edited: 12 Sept 2008, 3:27 a.m.


#12

I've got a question. I've got both a Advance Hepax module and a NoV-32, and this question applies to both.

If you copy a complete ROM into the HEPAX ram, with the HEPAX software leave it alone? The HEPAX documentation indicates that there are a few bytes in the ROM that have to be set a specific way so that the HEPAX software knows to leave it out of the HEPAX storage space (chain). If you copy an entire ROM into HEPAX ram, these bytes would most likely be set to something different. In that case, it seems the HEPAX software, upon the next HEPDIR command, would attempt to put the memory space being occupied by the ROM back into the file chain. Anyone know?


#13

I'll have to test. The 3 values you have to set to remove a block from the file system may match that of a ROM image. Or perhaps the file system blocks must have specific values and the odds of a ROM matching is remote to none. Since I used the HEPAX READROM command perhaps it does something automagic. This is all beyond the scope of my experience. I'll have to do some research. I have only tested using NoVRAM as a method to run ROMs, not as a file system + ROM mix. I'll test this week.

P.S., HEPROOM did function as expected as I added ROM images to RAM.

#14

Egan, I have a perfectly serviceable if somewhat old Windows laptop. If the Clonix burner is a simple USB device that runs under Windows, I am set. I must have misunderstood the website--I thought it was more technical than that.

And that raises my main concern, to be frank. I go the impression that using Clonix and the burner was really not plug and play idiot proof. If it is really not that daunting, then I really should look into the system myself.

Thanks for the tip. I will look at Diego's site more closely to educate myself, then make some enquiries.

Les


#15

Quote:
Egan, I have a perfectly serviceable if somewhat old Windows laptop. If the Clonix burner is a simple USB device that runs under Windows, I am set. I must have misunderstood the website--I thought it was more technical than that.

I found it simple, just run ClonixLP, type in the names of the ROMs and what pages you want to use, save and exit. It will then create the image and launch microburn. Then you just click "program", insert in 41C and you are done.
Quote:
And that raises my main concern, to be frank. I go the impression that using Clonix and the burner was really not plug and play idiot proof. If it is really not that daunting, then I really should look into the system myself.

When you get the Clonix CD, CD to the USB_Drivers directory and read the InstallGuide.PDF. IANS, you just run an EXE, then plug in the burner, it will autodetect and assign a COM port number. Just remember that number, you will need it the first time you run microbrn.
Quote:
Thanks for the tip. I will look at Diego's site more closely to educate myself, then make some enquiries.

You can download the Clonix software from his sight and read all the documentation, it really is easy.

P.S. did you get my e-mail?


Edited: 12 Sept 2008, 8:53 p.m.


#16

hi egan,

this was posted when I was composing my other reply below.

I think that one thing that is implicit in all of this is that one needs the ROM-extension files, not just the MOD files available on TOS. The utility modfile.exe converts them easily enough. For example, modfile /e ppc extracts the ppc.mod file to two 8K files, PPCU.ROM and PPCL.ROM. It the extracted ROM files are directly downloadable from TOS I can't find them. I believe the Clonix CD will carry the more common ROM images?

Pursuant to my question below, am I to assume I can't put Advantage onto a NoVRAM unless I wipe out the HEPAX? I find this a bit confusing.... Frankly, the only advantage I see to NoVRAM over Clonix is if one maintains the HEPAX so as to access all of that RAM....

The prices you quoted in your email are very reasonable. I will write Diego to quote me up to date pricing and shipping.

Les


#17

Quote:
Pursuant to my question below, am I to assume I can't put Advantage onto a NoVRAM unless I wipe out the HEPAX? I find this a bit confusing.... Frankly, the only advantage I see to NoVRAM over Clonix is if one maintains the HEPAX so as to access all of that RAM....

This is more of an academic question.... I just remembered I actually OWN the Advantage ROM ;)

#18

Quote:
Pursuant to my question below, am I to assume I can't put Advantage onto a NoVRAM unless I wipe out the HEPAX?

Yes.
Quote:
I find this a bit confusing.... Frankly, the only advantage I see to NoVRAM over Clonix is if one maintains the HEPAX so as to access all of that RAM....

The advantage of NoVRAM is choice. I like to play, since I have HP-IL I can easily test/use 4K/8K modules without ever leaving the 41CX environment. But, if I needed a 12K module, well I could just burn it.

If you are a hardcore user and need, say, PPC and Advantage to actually get your work done, then pick Clonix. But if you are like me and like to experiment with history, then I find the NoVRAM family the most enjoyable. I never had appreciation for HEPAX until after I got my NoVRAM. All the cool kids probably had HEPAX in the late 80's.

BTW, NoVRAM has another feature. If you do not have HP-IL and you want to get ROMs into RAM, you can burn 4K in a free 4K page of NoVRAM, then from the 41CX transfer the page to RAM. E.g. for PPC this would be a multi-step process:

  1. Burn HEPAX+PPCL to NoVRAM.
  2. Put in 41CX, copy PPCL to a free even page, say, A (10).
  3. Burn HEPAX+PPCU to NoVRAM.
  4. Put in 41CX, copy PPCU to matching odd page, B (11).
I have not done this yet, but I was told it was possible. I'll be documenting this in my tutorial.

Don't forget NoVRAM is HEPAX. Not only can you put ROM images in RAM, but if you have free RAM you can use it for file, register, and program storage similar to extended memory or HP-IL mass storage. And, it is persistent. The NoVRAM is the ultimate accessory.

IMHO, NoVRAM is the 41C Swiss Army Knife*.

* Product of The Canary Islands.

#19

Quote:
If you have HP-IL and only want to use 4K and 8K modules (no Advantage ROM because it is 12K), then you can transfer ROM images via HP-IL directly into NoVRAM. The RAM is static and retains its state even if removed. (I did this with PPC and Sandmath).

This is interesting. I have the HP-IL module, and so far the only use I have for it is the Printer. That is a mighty costly printer, considering I have an 82143 that has better print quality. How would the transfer work? I did once own a disk drive briefly, but I fried it through clumsiness and sold it back to the seller for a loss so he could resell it for parts. Broke my heart.

Why can't one do the transfer with Advantage into the NoVRAM RAM? Is it because the 12K size is not a multiple of 8? I am really naive to this hardware stuff--hence my apprehension.

Quote:
If you get a burner and NoVRAM then you have the best of both worlds because NoVRAM has the same 24K of EEPROM that Clonix does, so you could wipe the HEPAX ROM and replace it with 6 pages of anything you like (even Advantage). The RAM would be useless until the HEPAX ROM was restored.

This is looking better and better. I expect the best option for me is the NoVRAM 16 or 32 + the burner. As for the latter, I run XP under the Mac under VMWare Fusion. The USB emulation in the WinXP VM is impeccable--I have never yet had a USB device that my XP on Mac arrangement can't recognize. I am glad to hear the burner is a USB device. The downloadable manual does not seem to make this clear, and I thought I would need to scrounge some older PC machine with a parallel or serial port. USB-Parallel and USB-serial adapters (good ones) are not cheap and don't always work.

I need to repeat that the clonix and novram manuals are highly technical and if I take the leap I will be back here seeking the really simple version of all this.

Les


#20

Quote:
This is interesting. I have the HP-IL module, and so far the only use I have for it is the Printer. That is a mighty costly printer, considering I have an 82143 that has better print quality. How would the transfer work? I did once own a disk drive briefly, but I fried it through clumsiness and sold it back to the seller for a loss so he could resell it for parts. Broke my heart.

Here are the steps I took:
  1. Extract ROM from V41 (MODFile).
  2. Convert 8K (16 bit) file to 5K (10 bit) file (ROM2PAX).
  3. Copy all the 5K images to a DOS-based PC.
  4. Run LIFUTIL (with custom settings) and write all the images to a floppy.
Once on floppy you can use a 9114 or EMU41+HP-IL ISA Card. I did the later using LIFUTIL (for Linux) to create an image of the disk. BTW, if any want this image let me know.
Quote:
Why can't one do the transfer with Advantage into the NoVRAM RAM? Is it because the 12K size is not a multiple of 8? I am really naive to this hardware stuff--hence my apprehension.

In general a module can use 1 or 2 4K pages. If more is required, then bank switching is used. (I have not heard that term since my Apple ][ days). 12K modules are banked switched, AFAIK, NoVRAM/HEPAX do not support the same page toggling between images. An interesting experiment would be to see if a 12K ROM image could be and used as 3 4Ks.
Quote:
I need to repeat that the clonix and novram manuals are highly technical and if I take the leap I will be back here seeking the really simple version of all this.

I am working on an article/tutorial. But, it is going to be awhile before I finish. October perhaps.

#21

Hi,

I'll try to shed some light on the obscured parts of Clonix/NoV's utilization that you've pointed out.

First, the overall burning process has been simplyfied since this very morning, when I published the Windows configuration utility. Please take a look at it. I think this will turn Clonix/NoV's user's life quite more easy. However, this preliminary version does not support Bankswitching.


Quote:
...BTW, NoVRAM has another feature. If you do not have HP-IL and you want to get ROMs into RAM, you can burn 4K in a free 4K page of NoVRAM, then from the 41CX transfer the page to RAM. E.g. for PPC this would be a multi-step process:

Burn HEPAX+PPCL to NoVRAM.

Put in 41CX, copy PPCL to a free even page, say, A (10).

Burn HEPAX+PPCU to NoVRAM.

Put in 41CX, copy PPCU to matching odd page, B (11).


You can save a couple of steps in the procedure above, just remember that you can load *both* PPCL and PPCU images (or any other 8K module) into NoVRAM Flash ROM in a single burning. Then COPYROM to HEPAX RAM.

Just don't forget to re-configure your NoVRAM in order to remove the Flash ROM copy of the PPC, Otherwise you'll have tow copies of PPC inside your NoVRAM, wasting 8K of ROM storage.

Quote:
If you copy a complete ROM into the HEPAX ram, with the HEPAX software leave it alone? The HEPAX documentation indicates that there are a few bytes in the ROM that have to be set a specific way so that the HEPAX software knows to leave it out of the HEPAX storage space (chain). If you copy an entire ROM into HEPAX ram, these bytes would most likely be set to something different. In that case, it seems the HEPAX software, upon the next HEPDIR command, would attempt to put the memory space being occupied by the ROM back into the file chain. Anyone know?


These few words (remember HP-41 memory does not use bytes but 10 bits words instead) you have to change to tell HEPAX that a particular page is no longer part of its File System, are required if you want to free this RAM page, *without* loading any ROM image into it.

If you place a ROM image into any HEPAX RAM page, HEPAX will see it as a *real* ROM Pac plugged into your HP-41 and , consequently, will leave it alone.


Quote:
...am I to assume I can't put Advantage onto a NoVRAM unless I wipe out the HEPAX? I find this a bit confusing.... Frankly, the only advantage I see to NoVRAM over Clonix is if one maintains the HEPAX so as to access all of that RAM....

Certainly, NoVRAM adds two extra ROM pages to the HEPAX functionality, while Advantage requires three pages. Thus it is physically impossible to fit Advantage .ROM images into NoVRAM ROM while HEPAX emulation is loaded. However, you can still configure your NoVRAM in Clonix-like fashion and burn Advantage into it.

Note that Advantage is the *only* HP ROM Pac that uses Bankswitching (IR Printer also does, but this is a peripheral, not just ROM).

Quote:
The USB emulation in the WinXP VM is impeccable--I have never yet had a USB device that my XP on Mac arrangement can't recognize. I am glad to hear the burner is a USB device. The downloadable manual does not seem to make this clear, and I thought I would need to scrounge some older PC machine with a parallel or serial port. USB-Parallel and USB-serial adapters (good ones) are not cheap and don't always work.


I'm curious to see if the WinXP VM manage to handle the configuration utility and the programmer software. I have not a Mac environment to test, and know of some other Mac users that will also be interested in this scenario.

USB to serial converters will not work at all with the serial programmer, this has been proved without doubt. Certainly the USB programmer is the way to go.

Quote:
I need to repeat that the clonix and novram manuals are highly technical and if I take the leap I will be back here seeking the really simple version of all this.


Writing good manuals is not one of my best qualities... :-) As I got deep understanding of every technical aspect from the inside, it's somewhat difficult to figure out which parts may require a more detailled explanation from a user's point of view. However, both manuals are becoming outdated and are in need of a deep revision/rewriting in order to make an easy to use reference document.

Quote:
In general a module can use 1 or 2 4K pages. If more is required, then bank switching is used. (I have not heard that term since my Apple ][ days). 12K modules are banked switched, AFAIK, NoVRAM/HEPAX do not support the same page toggling between images. An interesting experiment would be to see if a 12K ROM image could be and used as 3 4Ks.

I think some sort of glossary will help here.

Page: a 4096 words (10 bits each) addressable space in which HP-41 organize its memory

Module: Any physical Memory device that can be plugged into HP-41 system. They can have one or more pages.

.ROM file image: a 8192 bytes file that contains one (4096 words) HP-41 page image. 4k modules require one 8k .ROM file image, while 8K modules require two.

Lower (L) and Upper (U) images: Convention for the designation of the pages in 8K (or more) modules. L images must be loaded into an even numbered page and the corresponding U image of the same module must be loaded in the inmediate following odd page.

Bankswitching: (Also called the HP-41 black-beast... ;-) An internal procedure that allows some (few) modules to use the same HP-41 system page to share more than one of this module's ROM pages. Note that the Bankswitching is an *internal* mechanism of the module itself, and it's fully transparent to the HP-41.

In fact, HEPAX and NoVRAM ROM does support Bankswitching as the HEPAX module itself is heavily Bankswitched (it uses four banks into the same page). However as there are only two extra pages and the only Bankswitched module requires three pages, there is no way to use the Bankswitching capabilities.

Regrettably, trying to run Advantage into three different pages won't work. You can take this for sure... :-(

Hope this has helped to clarify a bit the mess.

As usual, feel free to post or mail me with any comments, questions or suggestions you may have.

Best wishes from the Canary Islands.

Diego.


#22

Quote:
You can save a couple of steps in the procedure above, just remember that you can load *both* PPCL and PPCU images (or any other 8K module) into NoVRAM Flash ROM in a single burning. Then COPYROM to HEPAX RAM.

I think I got COPYROM and RAM2ROM mixed up. IIRC, with RAM2ROM only 6K is free?

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