48SX cards in 48GX



#28

I have a 41C emulator card that I used to use in my 48SX before it died. Now my 48GX is about to be returned all fixed and frisky. Is there some reason why that particular card should not be inserted into the 48GX?


#29

Hi,

there should be some related threads in the hpmuseum archives, and in the c.s.hp8 archives .

The 'HP-41CV Emulator Card' is _not_ designed to work with the HP-48GX.

You'll be able to start the emulator program, but using some more

advanced functions than just viewing the stack will crash your calc.

Just drop me a mail and I'll show you a workaround for this issue.

M a g i c 4 8 g e s @ g m x . d e (remove the obvious)

HTH

Raymond

#30

... Just have a look at Hrastprogrammer's Emulators .

As many of you here might have noticed, I regularly praise and advocate Hrastprogrammer's Emulators running on recent handheld Calculators - and in particular HP41X/Y/Z running on HP48GX or HP49G - which in my case definitely saved a 64K Astronomical Software for HP41 I had earlier written on a HP41 CY Turbo.

More generally, I am just amazed at how Hrastprogrammer's HP41X/Y/Z Software running on HP48GX seems to efficiently solve a great number if not ALL HP41 Problems adressed in this Forum.

This response in no way intends to turn down the Wonderful and Recent Hardware and Software Developments - such as increased memory extensions with all appropriate microcode toolings - completed or currently underway to run on Physical HP41's. These are absolutely Awesome Achievements, especially if we consider that physical HP41's are becoming old !!!

But sooner or later - as it already happened to me - such Physical HP41's will become out of repair for most of us, and reverting to less old / more recent physical supports ( such as the HP48GX or HP49G or even HP50 for those of us who NEED handhelds ) will become a most welcome alternative.

While again I am truly impressed by the Achievements mentioned just hereabove, and while I certainly do not want to spark up a new " fight in writing " on this forum - we have had enough of these lately - sometimes it too often looks as if a lot of people are pretending that HP-41X/42X/71X/... simply do not exist at all.

Best Regards to you all

Antoine

Edited: 1 Mar 2008, 3:47 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


#31

I have the HP41 Emulator card and it works with my 48SX but never works with my 48GX.


#32

To get somewhat more on topic again:

The HP/Zengrange card and the microcode emulators are two completely different things.

There exists a real conversion ('port') of the HP/Zengrange 'HP41CV Emulator' for the HP-48G+ and GX.

It's a single library now, it's completely relocateable, you can store it in any port at any location (port 0 recommended).

The 'HP41CV Emulator' card for the SX (and the ported GX version)

can be seen as 'simulator' rather than 'emulator' to a certain extent,

as they don't use the original HP-41 ROM images, but simulate their behaviour.

But the 'HP41CV Emulator' card for the SX (and the ported GX version) also offer things which are unique to them.

They are HP-48 compliant applications, which means they stay in idle mode when not in use.

Similar to the 'HP-71B Translator ROM' and its FORTH environment,

you can call HP-41 functions and programs from the HP-48 environment,

and your programs written for the HP-41 environment can call HP-48 functions and programs.

And there's another very nice thing: You can set the display to show *all* stack levels and LastX at the same time:-)

Emulator/Simulator:

To make the distinction somewhat more difficult again,
please note that the HP-41 FOCAL binaries

used in the Zengrange card are byte-code compatible to the HP-41/HP-42S binaries.

This means you can extract a 'binary' representation of a User code RPN program of a real HP-41,

feed it into the Zengrange emulator, and it will work.

HTH

Raymond

Edited: 29 Feb 2008, 8:19 p.m.


#33

Quote:
There exists a real conversion ('port') of the HP/Zengrange 'HP41CV Emulator' for the HP-48G+ and GX.

It's a single library now, it's completely relocateable, you can store it in any port at any location (port 0 recommended).

Hello Raymond,

I have the original Emulator Card for the SX, but have never seen the ported version for the GX. Where can it be found?

sjthomas


#34

Hello,

the only place to get this new version for the HP-48GX from is from me:-)

Just drop me a mail at

M a g i c 4 8 g e s @ g m x . d e (remove the obvious)

Raymond


#35

I have a couple of HP 48gx calculators. I use them with TDS Survey Pro.
This morning I ran into a bit of a problem.

When I start up my calculator, I hit the alpha key twice...type in TDS48 and hit enter. I can see the TDS page start up but immediately get the question...would you like to erase all data in port 2? {Y or N}

It doesn't matter how I respond to that question, I am returned to the "Home stack" similar to when I turned the calculator on only seconds earlier. I cannot seem to access the TDS rom card.

Can you offer any suggestions? thanks CBH


#36

hmmmmm - - a few questions. Do you have a battery-backed-up ram card in port 2? How's the backup battery? Have you tried launching without the port 2 card? Is the write protect switch on the card set to allow writing? How about executing TDS from the library instead of evaluating from the alpha-enter? You could also try resetting the calc (memory lost) then reloading TDS (after backing up your job files first, of course) and see if that gets it back for you. HTH

polarbear Mike, PLS

Edited: 7 Mar 2008, 5:53 p.m.

#37

Raymond,

Thank you very much for the clever insight you have given us on the differences - as regards the totally distinct ways they both run on HP48's - between the HP/Zengrange HP41CV "Emulator" ( which you better and rightly describe as a " Simulator " for the HP48GX ) and other " Emulators " such as - and not limited to - Hrastprogrammer's or Jean-François Garnier's true " Emulators ".

Actually, in early 2003, I was trying to get such a Zengrange HP41CV Emulator. I could not find one. I was almost " desperate " when I first contacted Jean-François Garnier who - after so kindly and efficiently salvaging my Astronomical Navigation Software - suggested that I should contact Hrastprogrammer... This is the way the Very Nice Story had already begun.

Thank You again Raymond

and Very Best Regards from

Antoine

Edited: 1 Mar 2008, 3:43 a.m.

#38

Hi, Antoine:

Antoine posted:

    "I regularly praise and advocate Hrastprogrammer's Emulators running on recent handheld Calculators [...] sometimes it too often looks as if a lot of people are pretending that HP-41X/42X/71X/... simply do not exist at all."

Best regards from V.

#39

Hola Valentin,


It is kind of funny ... because when writing about Hrastprogrammer's various Emulators, I was specifically thinking of YOU since I noticed many times that you also do appreciate Hrast's wonderful Emulators, and especially the HP-71X !!!

And I must confess that I was secretly hoping to raise your attention here !


Thank you for the various links to your former Threads. I had studied them with a lot of attention when they were published in early 2004.


I had just started in late 2003 my contacts with Hrast.

He was then upgrading his HP41 Emulator in order to match the already extraordinary possibilities of the HP41CY Turbo ( 319 Memories + 64 K Q-ROM ) . And once again Hrast achieved a new marvel since he came up with his Extraordinary HP41X/Y/Z Emulator with 96 K Q-ROM + over 3000 Storage Registers !!!! -

Best Regards


Antoine

OT : I still enjoy a lot your challenges. Have you ever thought of digging deeper into proving Riemann's Conjecture about the non-trivial zeros of his Zeta function ? ... it should be easy for you !!! :-)))


#40

Bonsoir, Antoine:

    "[...] when writing about Hrastprogrammer's various Emulators, I was specifically thinking of YOU since I noticed many
    times that you also do appreciate Hrast's wonderful Emulators, and especially the HP-71X !!!

      Yes I do. Hrastprogrammer's works are simply amazing and it stands to reason that any intelligent person capable of appreciating the outstanding quality of HP calc models is bound to do likewise with Hrast's productions. You do, I do, and lots of other people follow suit.

    "And I must confess that I was secretly hoping to raise your attention here !"

      You flatter me. Raising my attention here it's not that difficult for any reasonable person like yourself. The usual morons, on the other hand, would find it well-nigh impossible ;-)

    "And once again Hrast achieved a new marvel since he came up with his Extraordinary HP41X/Y/Z Emulator with 96 K Q-ROM + over
    3000 Storage Registers !!!! -"

      Awesome. If Hrast can't do it, then it's impossible, period. The converse isn't necessarily true :-)

    "I still enjoy a lot your challenges."

      Thank you very much for your appreciation ("still" ?). This, i.e., publicly stating appreciation of my challenges, is important to me, not because of a puerile desire to be flattered but because it's the only way to justify to myself the considerable time and effort required to concoct them. There are many appreciative lurkers and I'm glad for it but one person giving public feedback is worth a thousand lurkers to me.

      And talking about challenges, wait and see my incoming S&SMC#20 next April Fools, it's guaranteed to raise both eyebrows at once plus the right pinky for good measure.

    "Have you ever thought of digging deeper into proving Riemann's Conjecture about the non-trivial zeros of his
    Zeta function ? ... it should be easy for you !!! :-)))"

      Yes I did thought about it but you can't prove it. Actually, it's false.

      If you're interested in Riemann's Conjecture, wait till I submit a new "Boldly Going ..." article of mine dealing with very closely related matters to be considered for publication in Datafile. It's been fully written for nearly *two years* now but with the recent ruckus at HPCC I never got the proper chance to submit it and come to think of it, it might take a long while for it to appear there ...

    Thanks for your kind post and

Best regards from V.


#41

Quote:
This, i.e., publicly stating appreciation of my challenges, is important to me, not because of a puerile desire to be flattered but because it's the only way to justify to myself the considerable time and effort required to concoct them. There are many appreciative lurkers and I'm glad for it but one person giving public feedback is worth a thousand lurkers to me.

Valentin,

For the public record I greatly appreciate your challenges, articles, and commentary.

My day job is the design and implementation of large high performance computing solutions. To relax I like to enjoy the other end of the computing spectrum (low performance computing, i.e. calculators, pen and paper, even thinking). Your challenges allow me to work in areas of mathematics that are often not required for my day job. A deep understanding is often required to get 80's hand held tech to solve a problem in a reasonable amount of time. It's like having homework. Sure I can read a math book and do the problems to learn something new, but it's not being assigned, there is no deadline, so it often does not get done. IMHO, your challenges create an academic competitive environment that bring out the best in those of us that choose to participate. At times there have been whispering behind your back as some of us collaborate privately.

I'd rather solve a 100 math problems than watch TV. Please keep them coming.

Your humble student.

Quote:
Yes I did thought about it but you can't prove it. Actually, it's false.

Oh? Well that's a proof too. Please share.

Edited: 29 Feb 2008, 6:29 p.m.


#42

Hi, Egan:

Egan posted:

    "I greatly appreciate your challenges, articles, and commentary."

      Thank you very much for your interest. Your high-level contributions are also much appreciated. Matter of fact,
      finding a challenge you won't be able to cope with is
      challenging enough for me. Perhaps next S&SMC#20 will prove
      successful in that regard ;-)

    "My day job is the design and implementation of large high performance computing solutions. To relax I like to enjoy the other end of the computing spectrum [...] A deep understanding is often required to get 80's hand held tech to solve a problem in a reasonable amount of time".

      I sympathize. My day work is also lightyears apart from exciting math and calculators but I frequently indulge in math reading while at home and when I find something specially remarkable I feel the urge to share it with likeminded individuals, thus my math challenges focusing in recreational aspects with a touch of depth.


    "IMHO, your challenges create an academic competitive environment that bring out the best in those of us that
    choose to participate. At times there have been whispering behind your back as some of us collaborate privately."

      Glad to hear. They're also challenging to me, as after reading about the particular problem I must strive to create a reasonably optimized (not always) original solution and it may not be that easy, most specially when I'm aiming at the kind of problems that should stand a chance to resist your efforts for at least a few days.

      There's also the need to provide much more affordable problems so that every reader will find something to chew on. I think S&SMC#20 will succeed in that regard, because it does feature all levels, from "feasible" to "highly intractable". I now have a pool of 20+ possible sub-challenges and just need to decide which five or so will make it to the short list.

    "I'd rather solve a 100 math problems than watch TV."

      I never watch TV at all, except the news when something highly relevant does happen.


    "Oh? Well that's a proof too. Please share."

      No way. There's a lot of money and fame awaiting the discoverer of such a proof. Not that I'm in the least interested. :~)

    Thanks again and

Best regards from V.

#43

Quote:
Yes I did thought about it but you can't prove it. Actually, it's false.

BTW, what is " false " ?

... " is Riemann's Conjecture itself false ? " If so - and to make it short - just one counter-example on the Conjecture itself, or an absurd conclusion derived from the Conjecture would be a definite proof that the Conjecture is false,

... or rather is it " false that you can't prove the Conjecture " ??? Ahaha !!! This starts becoming interesting and this certainly makes my mouth water !

In any case I would be highly interested in studying your upcoming " Boldly Going ... " article. When and Where ???

Best Regards

Antoine

PS : I " always ... :-))) " enjoy your Math Challenges. !


Edited: 1 Mar 2008, 3:46 a.m.


#44

Hi again, Antoine:

Antoine posted:

    "what is " false " ? is Riemann's Conjecture itself false ?"

      Yes.

    "In any case I would be highly interested in studying your upcoming " Boldly Going ... " article. When and Where ???"

      Thanks for your interest. As for when and where, it's one of two: either I eventually submit it to Datafile and they eventually do publish it, or else I'll eventually make it available for free downloading from my calc web site.

      I still haven't made my mind right now and, being too busy with my hands in lots of different pies, it'll take a while. Anyway, I'll let everyone know when it gets the green light one way or another, and besides there are two other articles that will get it before this one does.

      Also, it's *not* about Riemann's Conjecture, just on that general field. Meanwhile, if you want to get deeper in RC, this link is a good place to start.


    "PS : I " always ... :-))) " enjoy your Math Challenges. !"

      Good to know, thanks. That "still" of yours had me puzzled ! :-)


Best regards from V.

#45

Refer to this article in my local newspaper from 2004. This gentleman claims he has already solved the Riemann Hypothesis. But since almost 4 years has passed since that article was written, I'd say he didn't do it.

#46

Quote:
Perhaps someone would try these tests (1-10) in one of the newest models, even though they are no longer Saturn-based ? It would be interesting to see how the timings have improved.

Looks like you already have 49G+ timings. The 50g (newer) is just a mechanical change (improved keyboard, paint, I/O). The software, emulation, and processor is the same as the 49G+.
#47

... have a look at these links to a number of threads ...

Hi Valentin,

I forgot about this nice threads - it was a joy to read them again. Thanks for reminding us :-)


#48

Ditto.

#49

Quote:
sometimes it too often looks as if a lot of people are pretending that HP-41X/42X/71X/... simply do not exist at all.

I do not think that any are pretending that they do not exist, but I think few have purchased or have tried the free reduced function versions of them. This limits the number of people qualified to recommend or comment on them. I can think of many reasons for this:
  1. Many people in this forum and comp.sys.hp48 have the real thing or are trying to get the real thing via eBay.
  2. Emulators for desktop, PDA, and phone are more interesting since all users have desktops, PDAs, and phones, and use them daily. And the emulators are free.
  3. The keyboard layouts are not the same as real thing, whereas desktop/PDA/phone emulators also emulate the keyboard layout. This makes them easier to use and more attractive for non-hobbyist use.
  4. Very few actually need a 71B or 41CX. IOW, most have moved on to the 50g or PDA-based applications.
  5. And finally cost is an issue. Possibly the biggest issue. The emulators are not cheap. I feel that only the hobbyist would be truly interested in them. There is no question in my mind about the quality of the emulators, but I do not think that many hobbyist are interested in paying 100 Euros for each emulator.
I highly recommend 41E (the free 41CV emulator (http://hrastprogrammer.com/hp41e/index.htm)) if you are interested in running 41C programs on your 48/49/50. The RAW41 utility on the same page makes it easy to compile all of your 41C programs into a single file to load into 41E.

#50

Thank you Egan for your reply.


I really do appreciate your reply because it brings up in a very nice way a sturdy and well balanced view-point.

Quote:
Many people in this forum and comp.sys.hp48 have the real thing or are trying to get the real thing via eBay.

It is certainly quite understandable to get the " real thing ".

Still, sooner or later real HP41's will become harder to find and to maintain. And getting a similar size - I keep my HP48's in my former HP41 pouches - and more recent handheld calculator which can run exactly like a HP41 is certainly a good fall-back option. When I was most desperately needing it, the mere existence of Emulators running on more recent Handhelds was then totally unknown to me at that time, i.e. in late 2003.

Quote:
The keyboard layouts are not the same as real thing, whereas desktop/PDA/phone emulators also emulate the keyboard layout.

This is an excellent and very valid point.

Actually it did take me up to a few weeks to feel comfortable running HP41X/Y/Z onto a HP48GX, especially when having to key in a long program that I could not have saved otherwise. Now, I very rarely use one of my 2 remaining HP41 CX's, and I still need half a day or so to become familiar again with these Very Beautiful Machines.

One clever solution to the keyboard layout differences is the possibility to use custom made keyboard overlays for the HP48GX, which very greatly reduces the learning curve time.

However, these keyboard overlays are no longer easy to find nowadays ... and as for me, I am not using any HP48 Overlay when running Hrast's HP41 Emulator

Quote:
Very few actually need a 71B or 41CX

I am just one of the " very few " since a handheld is a " must " for me in my Aircraft, and is also quite convenient - although not a " must " - onboard ships, or even at home.

And the fact that actual HP41's - just to name them - are so much chased everywhere might indicate that maybe more than " very few " people actually need them.

Quote:
And finally cost is an issue. Possibly the biggest issue. The emulators are not cheap. I feel that only the hobbyist would be truly interested in them. There is no question in my mind about the quality of the emulators, but I do not think that many hobbyist are interested in paying 100 Euros for each emulator.

This is a very important and valid point and seldom adressed in detail here.

*******

A great number of very talented " Emulator Designers " have put their Emulators free on the web.

This is excellent for the Community and I have routinely used Emu41 from Jean-François Garnier, V41 from Warren Furlow and Emu48 from Christopher Giesselink.

I would also add that, further to my first visit to him, Jean-François very nicely upgraded his Emu41 into a replica of the wonderful HP41Y ( including RAMBOX II ) from W&W Software GmbH. And the Community freely got the benefit of his new and current upgraded version.

This is an opportunity for me to publicly thank these very nice " Wizards / Pionners " who have made their High Quality Contributions freely available to our Community, and in particular the three Gentlemen I just mentionned.

*******

Now, when we look at Hrastprogrammer's Emulators, we first see that Hrastprogrammer is a full member of the very same " Wizards / Pionners Commmunity ". Exactly like the other people mentionned earlier, Hrast has made Emulators freely available to the Public, including the HP41 Emulators you rightly mentionned in your response.

Hrast is also selling some other Emulators, most often as " High Grade Improvements " over the " standard ones " he has made available in free access.

In a similar manner to Jean-François's developments, Hrast perfected his HP41 Emulator into a most superb HP41X/Y/Z Emulator far exceeding what even the other most advanced and knowledgeable Magicians thought would be possible or achievable.

I have to confess that, for a price of 100 euros paid some 4 years ago, I have been OVER-REWARDED with what Hrast has delivered : quality of service, willingness to help, utmost professionnalism.

And it even enabled us establishing a new and very friendly mutual relationship :-))

*******

True ... 100 Euros is not " peanuts " especially in our days with the USD-EURO exchange rate.

However - if you already own either a HP48 GX, or a HP 49G, or a HP49GX or even a HP50G - as a number of us probably do for at least one of these models, for this 100 Euro extra expense you get a fully running Super-Duper HP41CX ...

... running at 3 times the standard speed on HP48GX or 6 times standard speed on HP50,

... and with HUGE Quasi-ROM Memory, i.e. a Memory you can fully programm acording to your own needs. You have access to 3 Pages of 32 000 bytes each, with 2 of them fully switchable, i.e giving you an HP41 with up to 64 000 Bytes of Customs programs instantly available in the course of their automatic execution,

... and with 3 000 + ..... !!!! Programs Registers in RAM, i.e. over 21 000 Bytes of free Programming Space in addition to the above , and - since they reside in RAM - also instantly available in the course of automatic program execution, for a total of over 85 000 bytes of Custom Programming Space instantly available in the course of automatic program execution, + of course the additionnal 32 000 byte third page, for a grand total of ... 117 000 Bytes of Custom Programming Space, ... had you heard of that kind of HUGE memory available some 25 years ago, i.e. a few years after the HP41CX had been introduced, how much money would you have been ready to invest then : 100 Euros, or maybe ... a little more ??? ...

... + virtually all the most important modules ever designed for the HP41,

... + HPIL,

... + the possibility of instantly editing all your progams listings under the " Word " format. This would be a fantastic alternate option if we could have it for all programs which might be pdf'd in a near future, as long as such Programs are already loaded in HP41's .... see here for example.

... + the possibility to transfer Programs to and from EMU41 running on a PC,

... + you can "make" and save your own 4K Modules as HP48 Variables. You can easily store inside an HP48GX well above 1 000 000 bytes of your Custom Programs, should you require or so desire it,

All this Hrast has made it possible, and I could extend the list with the Virtual Program or Status Cards which you can store as variables on your HP48/49/50, and more ...

In comparison with what can be spent just to purchase a physical HP41 from the Web - as I can read here and there on this Forum - a 100 Euro expense for purchasing one of Hrast's Wonderful Emulators is certainly a more than reasonable expense, given everything Hrast includes in his Emulators ...

*****

Well, Egan, this has been certainly a quite interesting subject to adress. I did appreciate you very valid view points on Emulators, including your comments on the ones which are not free.

Let this Conversation be known to all who might be interested in its content, especially to new comers to this forum, so that they may know that - in addition to the newly / currently developped Software and Hardware designed to improve the " real thing " - there are also very viable fall-back options.

... Had I known 5 years ago about such Emulators, I would have felt
very much better then !!!

Thank You again for your Kind Attention and

Best Regards from

Antoine


Edited: 1 Mar 2008, 7:44 a.m.


#51

Quote:
100 Euro expense for purchasing one of Hrast's Wonderful Emulators is certainly a more than reasonable expense, given everything Hrast includes in his Emulators ...

Good afternoon Antoine,

Price is often determined by what the market will bear. IMHO, at 100 Euros the market for faithful 41C recreations that run on portable, hand held, button abundant, battery powered devices is limited to those professionals such as yourself that have a need for such a setup. And I would agree in your case 100 Euros is reasonable. And you have certainly found great value. If I had to run 41C programs daily to make my living I wouldn't even blink at 100 Euros.

But...

I firmly believe that the larger, possibly more lucrative market is the collector/hobbyist market. Jean-François Garnier (JFG, you've become a pawn, sorry :-) has free and commercial versions of EMU41/EMU71. I purchased the commercial version of EMU71 for 20 Euros because I needed HPIL support. As a hoppyist I certainly found value in this and feel that at 20 Euros the market attracted to the commercial EMU71 is the hobbyist. JFG may have also sold a number of copies to users interested in supporting his efforts as opposed to needing HPIL support.

I am in no way stating that Hrast should not charge 100 Euros or that JFG is correct in only charging 20 Euros. I am just stating my opinion than an emulator that would mostly attract the collector/hobbyist at 100 Euros is priced out of that market.

I could be wrong. Perhaps Hrast is wildly successful with year-to-year increases in sales and revenue. Then in that case 100 Euros is probably too little.

That all said, if I ever find myself with 300 Euros of disposable income I will gladly purchase all three emulators not because I find 300 Euros worth of value in them, but out of a need to support people like Hrast that do this type of work out of love for the well designed devices of the past.

Edited: 1 Mar 2008, 1:00 p.m.


#52

Thank you Antoine, Egan, Valentin (in alphabetical order) for many kind words about my emulators.

I usually don't comment the prices and I don't explain the reasons why something costs 100 EUR or something like that. But, just for the record: I don't make the real money from my emulators and I wouldn't make the real money if they cost 20 EUR, either. This is not a mass-production but very specialized software. And, as noted above, some of my emulators (HP-41E, TI-57E, TI-95E) are free and hobbyist don't have to pay anything in order to use them ...

If I find something really valuable and useful to me, then it is not a problem for me to pay 100 EUR or 1000 EUR or whatever ... But, if I don't find it valuable and useful then I won't pay 20 EUR, either. The same situation is with my emulators.

Best regards.

Hrast


#53

Thanks for one of the best threads in a while (outside of the challenges we had recently. Unfortunately time forbid me this time around to be the fumbling amateur among those who know what they are doing...)

especially as it showed some glimpses into the professional lives of some of the regular posters of wisdom, insight and the occasional dark wit (which I love just as much)

Cheers

Peter

#54

Hrast,

Thank you very much for 41E. Hopefully the article I wrote on 41C to 50g migration will help others find 41E and the rest of your great emulators.


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