friendly advice for Vincze


Vincze, please accept this advice in the interest of making this forum of maximum interest and enjoyment to the most number of people.

I am not the forum police, gosh knows, and I am reluctant to make this post, but frankly the quality of this forum has markedly decreased recently, due in large part to the number and types of posts you are making. This used to be a great place for exchanging information for HP fanatics, but when I see 20 new threads and one person making unnecessary posts to ALL of them, it makes me want to visit here less. It is not necessary to post a response to every thread. If you will notice, no-one else does that. We post when we have something to add or have a legitimate question that we have researched already but need help with. Most of your posts requesting information would not have been necessary had you done your research. Use Google or other search engines, they will answer a large portion of your questions.

Do what most all of us did at first: lurk awhile. Just read what is posted and learn from it. Most posters will go out of their way to help those with legitimate questions; I do too. But we all expect folks to try to find the answer themselves first. Another poster recently told you, when you asked how a program worked, sit down with paper and pencil, list the stack registers X, Y, Z, T, and registers, and step through the program line by line and update the register contents, and see what happens. It is called desk checking, and no-one should be asking questions about how programs work until they have done that critical step.

I think you will find this is a great place to be, and there are people in this forum who are absolutely amazing (I'm not one of them). But we would all be served better if you did not post so many messages each day.

Please accept this advice in the manner I intended, to make this forum even better for all of us.

Don Shepherd


I apologize, and I sorry for replying to this.

I go now. You second person who tell me to sop making stupid posts, so I can tell I am no longer welcome here.

Thank you my friends for all your help. I apologize I dumb down this group.


Vincze, I don't believe that there's any reason for you to leave, but do some research on your own before asking a question. Things like "Read The Fine Manual", look over the resources right here on the MoHPC site (including, but not limited to, this forum), read through any "Training modules" from HP's site that seem as if they might be relevant, and so on. Use Google to search for an answer, and note that the search can be restricted to this site only. Experiment a bit for yourself. You may well want to invest in the MoHPC DVD set.

Many of us do like to help, but posting an accurate and useful reply sometimes takes considerable thought, sometimes some research, and time, so frequently asked questions, or other questions that it seems that little or no research was done on before asking, might not be appreciated.

Of course, keep it clean; treat this as a forum that you wouldn't mind having children read. Abide by the forum's "Terms of Use".



I wrote:

Many of us do like to help, but posting an accurate and useful reply sometimes takes considerable thought, sometimes some research, and time, so frequently asked questions, or other questions that it seems that little or no research was done on before asking, might not be appreciated.

Of course, nothing forces me or anyone else to respond to any post. If I feel that a question isn't worth the bother of answering, then I generally just ignore it or else try to point out how or where the answer can be found.



Your conclusion is certainly not right. I surely speak for most of us when I say we're always glad to have new members and you'll find rarly any RTFM comment on even the most basic on-topic FAQs.

Don has just stated his point about smalltalk and very basic questions that are more or less off-topic here (programming, math). I'd recommend to give his post a second read and stay with the finest people you can find ;-).


Hello Vincze,

I go now.

please don't! I think your contributions have given a lot of life to this forum recently, that has been very quiet and "dry" for a long time. During the last weeks, it has grown from an average of two postings per day to something like 100, I wish the same would happen to my bank account...

Some of your very basic or low-level questions - naive or not - have made me rethink a lot of things that I took for granted until now.
Just yesterday, your question about symbolic differentiation on the programmable calculator made me remember my first encounter with 'Macsyma' in the early 80ies and the incredulous 'ahhhs' and 'oohhs' of me and my fellow students when we were shown its capabilities. How far we have come since then! Last night I played with my Ti Voyage 200 and let it do some real difficult differentiations and integrations (BTW Valentin, if you listen: It can also do matrix square roots :-) ).

So just keep asking 'silly' questions about things that we need to be reminded of now and then anyway.

Greetings, Max

NB: In the beginning, I thought that you were one of the regular contributors 'in disguise' who posed as the 'stupid Hungarian' just to wake up everybody else. I am still not fully convinced that this is not the case ;-)

Edited: 24 Aug 2007, 11:59 a.m.


Do not leave, keep on posting, your enthusiasm reminds me of when I got 30 years ago my first (HP) love, an HP25C!

Regards, Thor


Why? Why? Why?

Now some "whys" are needed, definitely!

We do we lack that minimum amount of tolerance, sympathy, altruism?

In summary: why do we like so much to hurt ourselves and to spoil the friendly feeling that used to be there in this Forum?


Vincze, *OUR* friend, please revert your decision to leave!

Saddened regards.



G, I think we're still the same friendly forum as always... We welcome new folks and we try to help out almost everyone. New posters arrive all the time, and discussions are good, even when they're bad. ;-)

I've seen a lot of forums (not calc forums, mind you) that are very hostile places to exist, and which tend to be run by a bunch of power-hungry types. I don't see that here. Yes, there is the usual amount of techie ego at work, much to my dismay, but even that isn't as bad as other places on the net. I think we have a nice community here.

I have to agree, however, with some of the comments posted. One learns the ins-and-outs of every community by time spent listening and observing. Little mistakes and breeches of etiquette are common, but should serve as learning moments. Our intrepid newbie has a tendency to respond to almost every post, which can kind of wear some of us out. :-) And as someone else pointed out, hasn't searched through the archives to see if a question was already answered, or if someone else had the same comment, before posting.

I suspect the motivation for this thread was a "hey, here's a friendly tip" type of comment. The kind two adults can share while they are casually talking. No offense intended.

Certainly, no one is suggesting that Vincze leave the forums or anything like that. Some of his stuff is good food for thought and brings up useful discussion. If friendly words are offending in his culture, then there's not much we can do except ask him to reconsider. I would be glad to see Vincze stay and contribute meaningfully, and hopefully he'll take this to heart.

My $0.02 anyhow.



Giancarlo, my friend ;)

I think that a considerable amount of tolerance, sympathy, altruism has been shown in the past weeks and don't see anything detracting from the usual friendly feeling in Don's post.

As Don and James have already pointed out some among us think that you should do a little homework before asking for help; their advices sound acceptable to me...

Vincze could have been bitten, and excited, by the neophyte bug: finding a place where our interests are shared.
I don't think he should leave, of course, just read a little more refraining from replying each and every time... as we all did and many still do.

So please, Vincze, stay with us and enjoy the forum and the many different, funny, interesting people who make it what it is.


Edited for spelling errors

Edited: 24 Aug 2007, 11:42 a.m. after one or more responses were posted


I have fond memories of my neophyte period here on this forum.

Looking back I am very grateful for the personal attention given me by many luminaries--Luiz, Raul Lion, Raymond D.T., Randy, Christoph, Hrastprogrammer, James Prange, and the list goes on...(whatever happened to VPN anyway...)

In time, Vincze will have the same sort of memories, like,'geez, that guy did even *more* than I ever knew, and he took the time to help little old *me*.' It is all part of the "pay forward" ethic of the old days of computing :-)


(whatever happened to VPN anyway...)

I've wondered that too. He also seems to be absent from comp.sys.hp48 lately. I know that he's used various "handles" over the years, but I expect that I'd usually recognize his posts regardless of what name he used.

I hope that all is well with him.



Bruce, Massimo, my friends ;-)

of course I don't wanna act as the counsellor of anybody...

I must admit I reacted a bit too quick to Don's post - I apologise with him and with all of you for that.

I just felt like some sentences stated something well beyond the helping attitude that is usual in our Forum.

Next time I'll be better off counting up to 100 before replying ;-)

However, I'd like to remark my attitude, that is proner to repeat things already repeated if there's even a possibility to help somebody to understand.

Maybe that was the major bias that drove my reply...

Sorry, and let's look forward :-)

Best regards.



I think it is worth noting that some of the threads that V. started that may have seemed un-researched, lead to very interesting results. Look for example at the derivation on 35s thread. Sure, if Vincze had had a manual, he might have known it to be impossible, but then there would have been no post, and no thread!


There are companies paying people to ask them dumb questions in regular intervals. The dumb questions shall bring the company to THINK again, also about some seemingly basic stuff everybody thinks (s)he knows by heart.

Of course, the questions must not be too dumb, or these people will be expelled. To assess their questions may need a lot of intelligence and research. Nevertheless, the best effect is reached if they sound really simple. Vincze, I wish you all the best to select the right questions for this forum, based on the necessary homework.

BTW: To ask such questions can become a profession. Those people are called auditors ;-)


Honestly, I don't think Vincze's questions were dumb in any way, shape or form. We've almost ALL asked the same questions. The difference is that we all asked them previously. :-) No, in fact, his questions are pertinent and useful.

I would not have even followed the derivative discussion, nor would have thought of it, unless someone started the discussion.

So in that regard, the result has been positive.


Edited: 24 Aug 2007, 12:43 p.m.



nor do I think Vincze asked stupid questions. However, I learned in this very forum some months ago that our (German?) sign for relativized "sayings" (you get it? Yes, the ""!) is read as an amplification here by many members. So I had no other way but to trust in the intelligence of the readers ... ;-)


I am not the forum police

If looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...


Given that there is a simpler remedy than trying to stifle a newcomer's enthusiasm - namely ignoring the posts you don't like - I think that this advice is off-base. I recognize that large number of forum members don't agree. I just wanted to register my opinion.

Some of us actually enjoy watching a newbie learn stuff we already know. I find that I often learn something new looking at old information through new eyes.




Given that there is a simpler remedy than trying to stifle a newcomer's enthusiasm - namely ignoring the posts you don't like (...)

True, but not so easy, since seldom the subject gets changed at all, and I often find useful bits of knowledge interspersed among unrelated threads... So I read everything gets posted here.
Given this I do repeat: Vincze, please stay!



namely ignoring the posts you don't like

Some people just simply can't do that, I think it has something to do with having an anal retentive personality.

Edited: 24 Aug 2007, 1:22 p.m.


None of Vincze questions have been dumb- I have read and learned from the posts and hope they continue. Several days ago in this thread Vincze said he wanted his son to learn Math before learning calculators because:

laziness brings struggle

The principle behind Vincze's lesson (with which I agree) is to learn the basics before learning the shortcuts. That takes time and hard work.

I think Don is suggesting that Vincze is more than welcome here, but he should follow his own advice to learn the basics from the manuals before taking shortcuts by posting questions here.

Edited: 24 Aug 2007, 8:25 p.m.


I'm just gob smacked.

I was under the impression that folks here actually liked to talk about using these things, rather than just basking in how shiny and scratch free their latest ebay purchase was.

Vincze asked some very good questions, provided some nice content (his aviation stuff for example), and prompted very interesting discussion (The deg/rad discussion with H.MS thrown in is actually quite subtle, IMHO).

This forum gets pretty much zero traffic, at least compared to most every other place I visit. I'm curious how busy it was before the 35s came out, but I wasn't around then.

Things like email and web forums are fine for presenting information, but LOUSY for "communication". It's the lowest bandwidth mechanism we know. Then you throw in a language barrier, and it's just a disaster. People take written text very literally even though more times than most, it's not written that way. A phrase typed in a web forum can be interpreted completely different from the exact same phrase spoken to someone. But most folks "speak" to themselves when they type and think that "speech" gets mixed in with the text. And then they get confused why the other person doesn't "get it" when it's "obvious".

Vincze isn't spamming, he's on topic (best as I can tell, but then, apparently, he's not, is he?), and produces good content.

But I guess he rained on someones parade. Walked in to a room and the murmur just hushes to silence.

I'll take my leave. Now I know where not to go to ask a question regarding these things less I spoil the mood.

I can't abide a quiet room.


I back up Don. There are such things like "common courtesy" and "common sense" which must be obeyed.


Hi, we're not in kindergarten anymore, so we ought to behave like grown ups. If I got the message correctly, there was some request here

anyone shall ask questions in this forum only after this person has checked all other sources of information at hand.

So this forum is meant to be the last exit before despair. Regardless of me sharing this opinion or not, can we agree on this as a preliminary rule? Since nothing else seems to help, I propose a poll. Everyone who is in favor of this tentative rule, please vote. Dave will then know whether this was the majority of the community or not.

HTH, Walter

Edited: 25 Aug 2007, 9:36 a.m.


anyone shall ask questions in this forum only after this person has checked all other sources of information at hand.

This isn't the point at all!! After resources are provided, It is reasonable to expect those seeking information to do SOME effort to find the answer by self-study.. it need not be an exhaustive search, nor a last-ditch effort, nor something regulated by policy.

It is not a common problem anyway in this forum, but I do think it is very clear, such as in these threads from PhysicsNerd:
(1 ,2 ,3 and especially 4)
when someone is making ABSOLUTELY NO effort to learn on their own given any reasonable amount of help/encouragement/hand-holding/spoon-feeding.

It is dissapointing, knowing that they have some of the best product manuals available and choose not to use them.




What, a new rule? Just because one newcomer rubbed a few people the wrong way, got criticized, and then decided to leave?

Note that nobody made him leave. (Anything that drastic would be up to Dave Hicks, anyway.)

I don't see how there is any kind of problem here. My vote: no. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

- Thomas


Well, the weekend is over now (at least in Europe), the poll stations were closed an hour ago, and I want to express my thanks to all voters. After careful counting under strict observation of some 40 HP calcs, here is the official result:

The community has unanimously rejected the "limiting questions" act.

I'm happy we do not need any complicated regulations for this forum, but can continue to run it as we know and appreciate it, some for years, some for weeks. Thanks, Dave!

Edited: 26 Aug 2007, 6:04 p.m.


Igen Nem több ezen téma!

Yes, I say no more on this!


So stay and stay in english ;-)

Greetings Juergen


Ha ha, you Hungarian almost worse than my English my friend.


What is "at hand"? The internet? Manuals? Textbooks?

Sorry. No sale here. Too many variables.



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