The following warnings occurred:
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10629 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10631 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10632 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10634 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10637 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10650 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10653 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10655 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10659 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10660 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10661 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10663 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10669 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10691 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10692 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10702 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10725 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10732 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10735 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10740 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10741 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10746 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10894 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10910 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10949 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10969 - Line: 275 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 275 errorHandler->error_callback
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $thread - Line: 295 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Trying to access array offset on value of type null - Line: 295 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $fid - Line: 295 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10634 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10637 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10650 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10669 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10732 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10910 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
/inc/class_error.php 153 errorHandler->error
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks
Warning [2] Undefined array key 10740 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
File Line Function
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10663 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 331 errorHandler->error_callback
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 304 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10692 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 304 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined array key 10969 - Line: 331 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 332 ThreadedMode::buildtree
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/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 304 ThreadedMode::buildtree
/inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php 23 ThreadedMode::showthread_threaded
/inc/class_plugins.php 142 threaded_mode_showthread_threaded
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Warning [2] Undefined variable $theme - Line: 3 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php(305) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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Warning [2] Trying to access array offset on value of type null - Line: 3 - File: inc/plugins/threaded_mode.php(305) : eval()'d code PHP 8.1.2-1ubuntu2.14 (Linux)
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/showthread.php 918 pluginSystem->run_hooks





12C, 11C, 15C



#2

Since the 12C is still in production, why can't Hewlett Packard reinstate either the 11C or the 15C to satisfy those of us who want scientific RPN calculators of that sort (not 32SIIs)?

-Robert King


#3

If there are enough financial professionals out there to justify the continued production of the 12c, there must surely be enough engineering professionals to justify the 11c or 15c. The problem is to convince the HP marketing department of this fact. I once sent an e-mail to them suggesting they look on e-bay to see what used 11c and 15c machines sell for. They must have their heads in the sand!


#4

I have a friend who says he's going to start selling his used kleenexes on ebay :-)

HP would have to make a lot of calcs to make money and that would tend to preclude selling them on ebay. Without the "rare!!!!" "Like new!!!!" "This is the last chance you'll ever get!!!" type stuff that goes on ebay, they would have to sell them for more or less normal calculator prices.

At those prices it may not be worth their trouble.


#5

Perhaps you missed my point. I think there would be a market for the 11c or 15C in the engineering community. I don't know the costs associated with a product re-introduction, but surely it would be less than that of launching a new product.


#6

Both have valid points.

I was looking for a new RPN calculator so I just got a new HP48G for $50 after rebate (just mailed rebate on 8/10 - hopefully it will come thru) because I didn't want to start using my 15C everyday. I saw a 12C at WalMart for $40 in a bin of closeout stuff. I should have bought it.

#7

I think I got your point - it was using ebay as evidence that I found unconvincing. A few dozen "RARE!!!" calcs sold each week doesn't really prove anything to a company that needs to make hundreds of thousands to get interested.

Does demand for a few hundred a year at a high price imply that you can sell a few hundred thousand at a lower price? You can't really say right? Demand curves can't be plotted without a lot of data which we don't have. Amazingly, some demands even go DOWN at lower prices.

#8

There IS a market for HP-11Cs and HP-15Cs on the engineering community, even if they were very highly priced (say around US $200). Lots and lots of engineers worldwide have used former HP calcs in the past, and really can't stand anything but RPN, specially for programming them on the fly, myself included. They also appreciate a lot those machines because of their very small size, light weight, factor form, elegance, ruggedness, and their extremely complete function set, which includes full, easy programmability. And equally important, the batteries last years and years and years. My HP-11C is used daily, a lot, still it needs a new set of batteries just once every 5 or 6 years. How does that compare with actual HP offerings ? Did I hear extreme complexity for doing anything ? Rubber keys ? Plastic case ? Preposterous size ? Weird colors ? Algebraic ? Short-lived battery life ?

Also, not only engineers would be interested in them, a lot of students would kill to get such a calculator, without all those bells and whistles and alpha capabilities that make modern models forbidden from exams. You can enter an
exam with an HP-11C or 15C. Don't even try with most models above an HP6S.

As for reintroductions cost, just consider this: the last batches of HP-11Cs and HP-15Cs had HP-12C keyboards with the legends painted over. To resume production of HP-11Cs
or HP-15Cs, all HP needs is to use their actual HP-12Cs
production facilities, simply repainting the labels and
inserting instead IC chips with 11C/15C code in them. Add
another batch of printed manuals, and there you have it.
HP could do it tomorrow, if they wanted, and start selling
them at US $200 right now, with sales pouring.

Don't hold your breath. They won't do it. Unless interested
people would begin a regular mail and Internet campaign to
force HP to reconsider this. Seems HP will only care if they begin getting bad publicity in the news because of their stubornness. Publicity is the keyword these days !

#9

Just adding power: why not considering on-line manuals and blister pack? Joining this to the 12C´s facilities mentioned previously, let´s say HP would have almost nothing to add. In Brazil, Volkswagen 1300 Sedan (beatle) got to production... and Volkswagen didn´t claim it was bad business.


#10

I live in Brazil and a re-production of the old beetle had political pourposes and was immediately abandonned for costs reasons and a small market. Ask VW that had to modify an entire plant to reproduce the Old Beetle and the customers didn't want an old, slow and unconfortable car.Today VW is just like old HP...Just for collectors and fans.
It is more cheap build a '01 popular car than the VW. I think it is the same reason hp don't wants to reintroduce the old HP calculators.

Marx Pio

#11

I agree on the return of the original HP-11C and HP15C machines. Especially if HP would make them NEW and with the original quality as the older ones. I believe that it is plausible to consider that many people will go for the original HP production 11C's and 15C's than the working or "mint" machines that are selling on eBay and everywhere at prices that are even higher than their original prices when they were new - and many of the resold machines are not only old but are also malfunctioning and most of them are no longer available as a complete set. Because these people know that they are purchasing NEW ORIGINAL HP machines with the same quality as before at close to a more reasonable manufacturer's price from HP and available as a NEW ORIGINAL COMPLETE SET. I believe Hewlett-Packard should try to reintroduce the HP-11C and the HP-15C.


#12

Imagine that a company named XYZ bought the specs and the logical schemes of all HP-retired calculators and decided to reintroduce these machine in the market.
The 41CX, modules, 11C, 15C and the almost-worshipped 42S will be avaliable at original design and colors, there will be only one problem, the brand [(hp)] will not be present at the face plate of the calculator. Will you buy it if the prices get reasonables?

Is our loyalty for the brand HP or for the power of an RPN Machine?

Think about it...


#13

Both. The general following or patronization of the public and collectors is the genuine Hewlett-Packard brand in an RPN calculator. If other calculator companies should use the RPN operating system in their machines they would not be thought of as in the same class and league as the Hewlett-Packard RPN machines.

#14

You got it!

I felt myself bad in my pants. I couldn´t help myself avoiding the pleasure I felt facing this possibility: "My God, they´re back! In new suits.".

A few days ago I wondered about using a low-power, enough featured PIC to hold kind of an HP simulator. By using a spare keyboard + display, say, from a 10-series, and 'morphing' some ROM codes (no copyright violation), it would take some time but I believe a 10-family emulator would rise from it. Changing from a 12C to a 11C, 16C or a 15C would be as easy as turning the unit on with 2, 1, 6 or 5 key pressed, as in the self test or master clear.

The idea has been launched. If HP cannot give us what we want so much, they cannot deny us the right to develop our own HP-compatible (sounds bgood, ahn?) calculator. No [(hp)] brand, but our own.

Any ideas?


#15

"Develop our own HP-compatible calculator with no (HP) brand, but our own". I don't know how that will affect Hewlett-Packard. How many people would create their own versions of calculators that these would undermine Hewlett-Packard's sales of their own products?


#16

Well, that's just a kind of challenge.

I do not believe I'll have all resources for it (I'm in Brazil; technology is far from our hands and bank accounts in here), but I have already started my research.

Why not daring a dream? Mostly when it's not impossible?

I'm looking for a PIC or another programmable, powerful controller that would allow low-power, standby operation, easily interfacing with external peripherals (keyboard, LCD, etc.), and other desirable features. If needed, even a pair of controllers: one for general I/O (display, keyboard, say, all external devices) and the other to act as CU/ULA.

Memory? XROM? I am still daring... Basically, cause I want having this little freak. To satisfy my HewPacknia.


#17

I have a 1982-vintage 15C which I use regularly in my engineering job. Recently, however, I gave in to the dark side and started working toward an MBA degree. Since I needed a business calculator, I decided to buy a brand new 12C. Of course, I couldn't help but compare it to the old 15C to see what differences nineteen years of production had brought about. After reading your discussions on these calculators, I figured I may as well share some of my observations:

The most obvious difference is in the keyboard. As mentioned elsewhere in this website, the legends are now printed (painted?) onto the keys, instead of molded in as on my old 15C. The paint looks extremely thin, so I wonder how long it would be before the legends wear off from use, and how resistant to finger oils they will be. Also, the printing is a bit sloppy - the "f" and "g" keys have their letters tilted in opposite directions, The "ENTER" key has its letters slightly distorted such that it looks like italics, and the remainder of the keys also show similar variations in positioning.

The "feel" of the keys is not as smooth. The clicks are definitely harsher and less consistent from key to key, with several keys emitting a loud "pop" when released.

I ran the self test (ON/X) to turn on all the display annunciators. All the familiar symbols were there. The only noticeable difference was a slight shift in alignment between the bottom row of annunciator symbols with respect to the numbers above (when compared to the display on my 15C). Although not significant, the difference in alignment does imply that the display production was retooled sometime. Which then begs the following question: Why do they still keep the "G RAD" annunciator in the display? The 12C doesn't use it, and it's been over a decade since the other calcs that used it have been produced. Is it possible HP reserves the possibility of using it again in the future? (Wishful thinking!) Probably, though, it may just mean that it was easiest (and cheapest) to just leave the production drawings and specs unchanged.

A surprise was the battery compartment. The new 12C on display at the store had the familiar little battery cover hiding the compartment for three stacked LR44 button cells. However, upon removing it from its packaging, I found that my new12C had a much larger battery cover hiding a completely different battery compartment containing a single 3-volt lithium coin cell. I do recall that the 12C in the store had a "MAY......" serial number. My 12C is Chinese ("CN......" serial #). I guess this means the 12C production line will no longer be a potential source of replacement battery covers for older 10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, & 16C calcs. Time will tell how this will affect battery life. On the bright side, this may signal an intention to continue production for at least a little while longer; why would they spend the money & effort to redesign and retool the battery compartment unless they intended to use the modified tooling for a while?

The change in battery also means this new 12C is running on 3 volts, instead of 4.5 volts. Out of curiosity, I set the new calculator on top of a little AM radio tuned between loacal stations, and ran it though several functions. I had once discovered that doing this with my old 15C resulted in a loud cacophony of electronic noises from stray RF from the calculator's display and processor. However, the 12C was virtually silent, implying some internal electronic differences. Without opening it up (which I am not about to do, yet) I can only guess if this is directly related to the change in battery and voltage.

Just a few observations!


#18

HP-12C shifted from 3 x 1.5V LR44 to 1 x 3V CR2032 starting with serial # CN11500001.

See http://www.hp.com/cgi-bin/cposupport/get_doc.pl?SNI=hp12cfinan20040&LC=mobile_computing&Tfile=bpia5189 for further details.

Cheers,

Massimo

#19

marx; i won't NEED another calculator for the rest of my life. however, if someone came out with a 42 that could hook up (two way) to mass storage - i'd buy it in a new york second. i wouldn't care if the devil himself made it and to tell the truth i wish it would be a non-hp, and way popular. like a lot of people here i've been a loyal coustomer. in my case i bought an 11,12,41,71,& 48 plus assorted chips, cards, cables, 2 printers, il, etc new from them and what did they do for ME? they reciently offered the 6 and 39 and 49. this was, of course, not personal. so i don't take it personal but all i can say to answer your question is: rpn. and come on t.i.

#20

Let's face it: The reason for the eBay price level is that these models are now collectors' items. If they were reintroduced, eBay prices would most likely be way below new ones.
And, HP marketing no doubt know what they are doing - when sales drop below a certain level, a model will be dropped.
Besides, don't ever think that they will pay attention to pleading emails from any enthusiast :-)
We, the fans, are only a veeeery tiny part of their market!

John


#21

HP marketing knows what they are doing? Part of marketing's function is to promote the products the company manufactures. If HP fails to market RPN and just analyzes sales figures, then RPN is doomed. Recent history is riddled with poor decisions made by the marketing arms of some of these technology companies.


#22

I agree with R. J. Bied: "Recent history is riddled with poor decisions made by the marketing arms of some of these technology companies." HP's change of name for their instrument branch (the ORIGINAL purpose of HP!) to Agilent is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. They have given up two or three generations of name-brand familiarity for nothing. The could have called it HP Instruments if they felt compelled to separate it from the computer part of the company.

At any rate, I agree that it would be simple to re-introduce an HP11 or HP15 (from the factory in China where the '12 is now made). I can't believe that they couldn't turn these out like pancakes for a few bucks a piece.

Anybody want to form a company to buy out HP's production plans?


#23

"Anybody want to form a company to buy out HP's production plans?"

Now here's something I can appreciate - putting your own money where your mouth is rather than someone else's. It's just too easy to complain about someone's marketing while standing on the sidelines with no risk of your own.

Good luck and please keep us updated on your endeavor!

#24

The same argument can be made for producing the HP42S using the HP17Bii production line.

However - recent evidence makes me think that HP are trying to get out of making the HP12C. (I take no comfort in HP dropping another RPN calculator but 20 years must be one of the longest runs ever).

About 18 months ago HP had a survey on their web site about the HP12C, it asked questions like 'what do you like about the 12C' e.g. keyboard, RPN, look and feel etc. Recently the HP10Bii has been produced and people are saying 'well its got the look and feel of older HP calculators'. I don't think these 2 events are unrelated. I think HP are trying to wean users off the 12C and production will stop if the 10bii starts to sell well.

I heard that the sales of HP12C's are holding up but production costs are way above those for a more modern design (this doesn't mean lower quality or non RPN but using more modern manufacturing techniques does make it much cheaper).

On a more general note HP stopped investing in RPN calculators about 5 years ago. Recent models are all non RPN: HP6 (not an HP), 30, 39, 40, 10Bii. (I don't think the HP49G counts as it only has RPN due to it's HP48G roots and the user guides are clearly aimed at non RPN use).


#25

The arguments about production costs vs. projected sales
of such calculators as the HP-11C/15C do not hold as much water as it seems, imho.

First of all, as stated before, production of HP-11C/15C could use fully the existing facilities for HP-12C production, with just the minor steps of repainting the keyboard labels and including an IC or ROM or whatever with 11C/15C code. I can't see that this would be significant cost at all, more so a better utilization of an existing
production line.

Second, there actually is a significant demand for those calculators. HP has been educating a whole generation of leading edge engineers and professionals on the advantages of RPN and the quality of their calculators, and suddenly those people are left out in the cold. This has generated a lot of demand for those old models, as can be seen in eBay, in adds worldwide, in newsgroups, and everywhere. Besides many of those choice professionals wouldn't care to pay high prices for such items new in box, and would even buy several spares, just in case, because they can afford it provided the goods were available on the first place. You could easily sell several thousands that way with minimum effort.

Third and last, HP made much more money in the past from one of their excellent, state-of-the-art calculators than the mere cost of the machine itself. Lots of those students
and professionals who bought their machines were so pleased with them and their quality, that would actually buy and recommend a lot of much more costly HP items, later in life, for their own use and their company's, friends and relatives.

I'm pretty sure that many people who bought an HP-67 or an HP-41C, say, at a cost of a few hundred dollars, later bought still more HP calculators and accesories for them
(say a printer, a wand, more memory, solution packs), and later on their careers they also bought HP computers (HP-85/86/87, HP-9816/26/36, HP Vectras), HP disc drives, HP printers, HP scanners, HP CD writers, the works.

So, you see, just because of a small, $200 well-made, quality calculator, perhaps HP got many thousand of dollars worth of additional sales. And it's not a fictitious case
nor wishful thinking: it's been my case during the last 25 years, and it's the case of most of my friends, and it's probably the case of most of you. HP calculators' quality
was one of their best publicity assets and customer fidelization resources, but it seems they never realized that. They never discovered or valued the relationship between sales of a calculator to some customer and further sales of other HP hardware items to that very same customer (not to mention word-of-mouth extra sales or sales to the customer's company).

Do you think that 'hooked for life' scenario can be generated now by actual HP products ? Not me, I've crossed HP from my list of preferred hardware provider when I
realized the high-quality company and products I knew were no more.


#26

I agree. My first Hp was an Hp15c. I now have many. I feel that the Hp quality of the calculators generated many sales in their other lines as well. Well their take off company has another name and its now struggling. Hp developed and sold their new line to appeal to a student market that is locked up by Ti.

The Hp 39, should be revamped to include CAS, like the Hp40, and also add units and other Hp48 features. Hp is not going to displace the Ti-83 in schools (at this time, or overnight), therefore give the person who buys an Hp every advantage and reason to buy the best, not an equilivent Ti with the Hp logo. At $100, it would rival the Ti-89 (I still wouldn't like its keyboard, and the Hp49 has a much better keyboard than its little brother).

Make the calcs all RPN/Algebraic selectable just like the Hp49 and Hp19B.

Every generation of Hp calcs has offered something above the previous models (sometimes you gave something up to get it, ie the hp41, replaced by the 28, then 48), but the recent offerings were not the giant leap most of us expected. Hp actually pulled the hp42 from us with no equalivent replacement at all.

Hp used to have the engineering market, but with the new graduates used to Ti and with Hp offering Ti clones like the Hp39, Hp won't sell much. When Ti sold trash up until the late eighties, it was easy for Hp to compete. Hp sold quality and technology.

Now Hp's quality ie. Hp6s, Hp39 with rubber keys and nearly a ti-83 clone, don't offer any significant difference to the typical buyer. The Ti line is decient and when your teacher uses a Ti (that will last for years, not months like the older Ti trash of the 70's and 80's), you will buy it and be happy. Granted an Hp lasts for decades, but 5 years + aint bad either.

Hp only has the diehard loyalists like us left. Hp should offer more, not the same. Kids will buy what the teacher uses unless they get more! True some schools will ban the Hp if it does this, but so what. Hp wouldn't sell there anyway.

Just my thoughts and RANTS!

#27

That practice of customers buying one product which in turn triggers them to buy others is called "pull-through" (in marketise).

The idea is that (say) HP didn't make much money on the calculators, but the pull-thorugh business was enormous. That calculator buyer was so impressed that they recommended other HP products at every opportunity. And those other products, say computers, lab equipment and so on, tend to have higher profit margins. So the net-net (another marketise term) is a good solid long term strategy for the company.

However, these days product groups in large companies like HP are expected to carry their own weight. Pull-through is blantantly ignored and the corporate allocates expense charges back to the product group based on "averaged overhead costs" rather than real costs. Then, if your division is not profitable (all on it's own) the product list gets cut back, development projects are canceled, people get laid off, which ultimately leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The challenge is to find a way to quantify the actual value of the pull-through business (in order to effect a return to the ways of old), *or* find a way for the division to operate in today's corporate business climate (in order to effect an faster advance towards the ways of the future).


Ideas anyone?


#28

No ideas but thank you for the marketing lecture. It explains a lot.


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