Rip of CD1 calc CD selling on ebay???



#2

See item number 230055294524 at:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HP-Calculator-CD-of-E-Manuals_W0QQitemZ230055294524QQihZ013QQcategoryZ3294QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks just like the CD1 that can be got from this web site.

Is this guy reselling his own copy or copying them and selling? Ebay listing doesn't say if it's "new" or second hand after being bought from this web site.


#3

He is selling EIGHT copies. I don't think any "normal" individual will buy 8 copies from this museum.

Smells like a rat!!!

Namir

#4

Previous auction

Time for everyone to start contacting ebay and this seller.


Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 12:05 p.m.

#5

His reply:

"Hi,
I have looked briefly at the HPMuseum Website, and it looks like they also are selling scanned copies of HP Manuals. As HP themselves no longer provide the manuals, I believe (as HPMuseum also do) that I am not contravening any Rules. HPMuseum is NOT run or operated by HP. However, the material they provide is a more complete version of what is on my CD by the looks of things. I would be willing to remove my auction, if they also remove the product from sale. As we are either both within the
copyright law, or in breech of it. Best regards Jim"

#6

1. Why automatically assume he is "ripping off" HPMuseum?

2. What is the copyright status of HPMuseum DVDs?

If the DVDs made by HPmuseum are not copyright, and the material on them is public domain, then it seems to me that copying and distributing them would be both ethical and legal. Essentially then what one would be paying the Museum for is the cost of production.

Of course if there is a copyright, then that would be different.

Am I missing something (entirely likely)?

***EDIT***

See Dave's post below.


Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 1:26 p.m.


#7

You say:

"If the DVDs made by HPmuseum are not copyright, "

Reply:

Anything produced like this, has an implied copyright. Not necessarily on the included material but the value added work. It takes time to scan, compile and produce a compiled work. One need not "apply for" a copyright, to have a copyright. If one takes the time and scans an image and puts it on a CD and sells the CD, they hold a copyright on the CD and the produced works (i.e. what they scanned). Someone else can't simply copy that CD and resell it.

You say:

"Of course if there is a copyright, then that would be different."

My reply:

Like I said, one need not apply for a copyright, to hold a copyright. This post of mine has an implied copyright. :-)

BTW, I also told the seller that the HP Museum has received permission of HP which puts the two examples in entirely different boats.

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 1:29 p.m.


#8

I don't see "implied copyright" anywhere on the U.S. copyright website. Yoa are correct that copyright begins with the creation of an *original work*. Whether scanning somone elses's original work and compiling would itself be considered original work would be the question.

If I scanned the Riverside Shakespeare and published it, that might be different from transcribing it. In other words, Shakespeare is in the public domain, but the typesetting is not. Is scanning considered analogous to typesetting?

I am afraid that "value added" is not in itself protected by copyright. Process, system, idea, etc are not copyrightable either (apply for patent instead).

But that is water under the bridge, as in fact I am inferring from Dave's post that HP still retains copyright but has given explicit permission to Dave to reproduce the material as he is doing.

Note that transfer of copyright on a non-exclusive basis does not require a written agreement.

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 2:21 p.m.


#9

Since 1982 or so, it hasn't been necessary to mark a work as copyrighted. (Though the museum CDs and DVDs are so marked.)

According to my attorney, yes, I have a copyright on the works. It's only gone far enough once in the last 8 years to get him to write a letter for me, and that corrected the situation. Your attorney may vary.

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 2:26 p.m.


#10

:-)

#11

It is copyright-able (and apparently copyrighted in fact) as a derivative work.

If the e-bay seller is copying the Museum disk or scans from it, he could be liable under Dave's copyright. If just the text, a violation might not be as clear.

In either case, he is probably violating the original HP copyrights.

Check out the penalties for copyright violation for commercial gain (civil and criminal). They are frightening.

[This isn't legal advice - just a comment]

I do my business with Dave, as we all should.


#12

Yet, for years now, there have been people on ebay selling a CDR copy of the 12c manual.

I've contacted HP before, but deaf ears I guess.

Perhaps they don't consider it worth their trouble.

#13

Quote:
Since 1982 or so, it hasn't been necessary to mark a work as copyrighted.

In the US, the mark requirement was dropped effective March 1, 1989.

#14

You say:

"I don't see "implied copyright" anywhere on the U.S. copyright website."

My reply:

Once "created" a copyright is attached. When I said "implied" I meant that you do not have to "register" or "apply for" to have a copyrighted item.

And "compiled" or "derived works" are just as copyrightable as the original works.

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 4:31 p.m.

#15

I emailed the seller and received the same email as Mike. So I emailed him again and explained who I am (the "they" he refers to) and that I have permission from HP (which was just re-verified a couple of months back.) I'm waiting for a reply on this second email. It's kind of disappointing to have to deal with stuff like this especially after being worn out from about 70 hours of scanning last week, but so far I think it is a misunderstanding that will be fixed.

(I know "worn out from scanning" probably sounds wimpy but I'm getting old and sitting over a scanner kills my back and standing over it kills my knees. I need some kind of bed-mounted scanner. :-))


#16

Dave,

You have permission from HP. He does not. If he merely is copying some of your CD, he is in violation of ebay and the law. ebay will reply to you, as you DO have permission.

His auctions can be pulled.


#17

So, I've asked him to terminate the auction. If he doesn't then I have ebay's address and have used it successfully in the past when "nice" has failed.

I like to start with the assumption of a lack of understanding. I know the law doesn't work that way, and I have no way of knowing if it's true, but that's the way I like to start.


#18

I have asked some of the previous purchasers if they wouldn't mind sending me 1 (any) of the manuals, from that CD, to compare against the ones from your CD/DVD, to see if they have simply been copied from your CD/DVD.

I'll let you know if I receive any.


#19

Do you still have any doubt this is a mere copy of the CD 1? What are the odds of a random compilation of 40 or so manuals matches exactly Dave's? (Actually the HP-29C manual is missing in the seller's list...)

As of now, the auction is still there...


Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 5:19 p.m.


#20

But no matter, the people he has sold to will likely send me a copy and I can compare against the originals on Dave's CD. If they are just copies, it will be come apparent very quickly. And that would be a violation, pure and simple. One may not "make copies" of someone else's work and sell them as his own. Period!

He has removed his auction. Wonder if that means "copy"?


Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 8:02 p.m.


#21

Quote:
One may not "make copies" of someone else's work and sell them as his own. Period!


Mike,

This is a consensus, I believe. Once I reported Dave a site that had made available some of his laboriously scanned manuals. Having scanned three manuals myself as a small contribution to the next DVD, I have an idea of the huge effort he has undertaken to offer us such great work for a relatively low price.

Regards,

Gerson.

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 8:56 p.m.


#22

I have just received files from someone who bought one of those CDs and they are copies of Dave's files. He has offered to send an entire copy of the CD, if Dave needs it.


#23

#24

"I need some kind of bed-mounted scanner."

I thought the glass plate was known as the "scanner bed" . . . If so, you have a scanner-mounted bed, if not a bed-mounted scanner. (Small consolation, I suppose.)

#25

Dave,

I can understand the worn out from scanning feeling and empathize with your pain of seeing your hard work being sold on ebay. I had the same experience recently with someone on ebay who downloaded and was selling CD's of the manuals that I had scanned and posted on my non-HP, non-TI, mostly-non-copyrighted, pre-LCD calculator site. The seller (OLD-SOUTH-BOOKS was the ebay store name) was good about removing his ads and apologizing after just one email. I hope you have the same luck.

-Katie

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 8:29 p.m.


#26

Which site is that?


#27

Vintage Electronic Calculator Manuals


#28

Katie, your site brings back memories.

I was fascinated by calculators as a kid and the first one I owned was a simple Novus, which got broken and is long gone. The next one is this one:

[link:http://www.wass.net/manuals/Lloyd's%20311.pdf]http://www.wass.net/manuals/Lloyd's%20311.pdf[/link]

I just dug it out of storage, popped in some AA batteries, and the darn thing works. The thing has been jostled and the nice big green LED display is slightly misaligned, but I think this is pretty impressive for a 30 year old calculator. Too bad it doesn't do much :)

I also have a beaten up TI57, but I don't think that one is functioning, and I don't it even worked right when I last used it as a teenager. I will see if I can dig up an AC adapter for it--I think at one point I owned two, but one shorted and the other was TI's replacement. I recall having lots of AC and recharging issues with the thing even when new.

Les


#29

Quote:
I also have a beaten up TI57, but I don't think that one is functioning, and I don't it even worked right when I last used it as a teenager. I will see if I can dig up an AC adapter for it--I think at one point I owned two, but one shorted and the other was TI's replacement. I recall having lots of AC and recharging issues with the thing even when new.

I found the AC adapters, and as I recall one works and the other doesn't.

I don't think the battery pack will carry a charge (that won't stop me from trying) but right now the thing runs off the wall charger fine.

I recall using the TI57 all thru high school then mothballing it once I splurged on an HP41CV in 1984. Of course!

Les


#30

For the heck of it I plugged the thing in for a few hours and went out. On returning, I powered the thing up on battery power alone, and to my great amazement the thing stayed on!

Geez, I would love to have an HP65 or HP67 that could still do this. I thought this calc was toast years ago....

Les


#31

I hate to admit it, but virtually all the old TI calculators I've come across -- dozens of them -- still work, even the really physically beat up ones. I generally don't like the way they look, feel or function but I have to hand it to them for making some pretty long-lived chips and PC boards.


#32

The thing turns on and holds a charge, but the keypad is an unpredictably responsive mess--damn thing must be clogged with crap. Oh, part of an LED segment is burnt out in the first digit of the exponent, but enough remains to distinguish 6 from 5 and 8 from 9.

I didn't get my HP41CV until my second year of university, so this thing must have gotten me thru first year physics and chemistry courses. I have asked my retired mother to peek around the house for the box and manual for the TI57, but I suspect they are long gone. Too bad--I recall being fascinated as a teen by how they manage to fit a Simpson's Rule routine into the calcs modest 49 steps. With no continuous memory, I must've reentered that thing countless times....

Les


#33

Actually, it does have continuous memory. :-)

http://www.rskey.org/gene/calcgene/57c.htm

You get a 47 step continuous memory TI57 doing this.

Gene


#34

That is so neat!!!!!

I am pleased to report that after two days of using the newly revived unit the battery pack still holds a charge. If have given all keys a fairly vigourous pressing and the calc some gentle shaking to dislodge dust and debris, so key press issues seem resolved. Indeed, so far the only problem I have found with it is part of that LED segment in the exponent being burnt out, making it a bit difficult to distinguish between 8 and 9 and 5 and 6.

I just peaked in another box of junk and found the QRG. Alas, the classic manual Making Tracks into Programming seems long gone, but is cheaply available thru used booksellers. Mum seems to have ditched the box too, alas.

I know it is no HP but I did love this calculator for several years before splurging on a 41CV and never looking back. It introduced me to keystroke calculator programming. I am amazed that after being essentially disregarded for over twenty years I have gotten the thing to work. When I set my 41CV aside for several years in preference to a 48G, it needed repair work to be resurrected. I love the LED display, inspiring me to keep a lookout for any programmable LED HP--doesn't need to be the 65 or 67, even one of the more modest ones will do.

Les


#35

The TI-57 gets far more out of its limited number of program steps than one expects from a TI product because it uses merged codes.

There is some clever stuff which can be done with the TI-57 such as synthetic codes which provide alphanumerics a through f in the display (V8N2P23 ff) and a factorial calculation up to 52! (V9N6P9) where the references are to TI PPC Notes which can be found at the rskey site.


#36

My adventure of rediscovery continues....

I was able to find a scan of the German version of "Making Tracks..." and was able to fully understand the keystroke listing for the Simpson's Rule code, even though I read very little German. The program is actually only about 35 steps (the other steps are needs to compute the function to be integrated). Using the stack, my quickly done port to the 41CV is even shorter. The TI-57 offers full storage register arithmetic analogous to the HP41CV, which makes the TI code compact. The actual program is sluggish and not horribly accurate (it is only Simpson's Rule, after all), but revisiting the routine really brought back memories. I tell you, as an adolescent just beginning to learn calculus I was entralled by this little program in the late 1970s.

I have also found a spare BP7 battery pack and that seems to hold a charge too. Weird--I am sure back in the early 1980s at least one of these things was dead, which is why I have two now. But they both seem to work.

You know, if I am hankering for an LED programmable but find the available 65s or 67s out of my range, I may settle in the interim for TI59. They seem much cheaper. Sacrilege, I know!!!

Les

#37

Alas, my nearly 3 decade old battery pack isn't potent enough to sustain this excellent trick for more than a few hours. I set the calc in the display off mode according to the instructions, and on rising the next morning she was stone dead.

Still, I am glad to get a couple of hours of "display on" use between charges. I had forget what a fun little gizmo this was when I was 16, despite its limitations an the clear inferiority to analogous units like the HP33E (HP's 49 step volatile memory late 1970s programmable. I am awaiting delivery on a 33c and I am really excited :) )

Les


#38

Les,

if you have a TI-30, you can simply run the TI-57 off a 9V block battery. Just cut the wires, solder the two button contact plate to the wires and use the battery cover of the TI-30!

Another way of repairing your calc is by simply replacing the dead cells. The battery pack can be opened easily.

Marcus


#39

Radio Shack sells these for a couple of $$$ for a pack of 3-5 9V attachments. I used one for just such a purpose myself (might have been a Ti-55).


#40

My memory has been jogged--I now realize why I have two of these battery packs. One charges but discharges overnight just by sitting around. The other holds a charge normally, and I can get a couple of days light use before charging again. Evidently one is fresher, so I must have gotten a replacement at one point because of this very issue--the deader pack has been deader for a long time.

The 9 volt patch issue is clever but it means permanently altering the calculator by chopping of the existing plug and connecting the two button thing. Refurbishing the battery pack is not so easy either for a duffer like me--it involves resoldering the cells to the little circuit board inside, something I wouldn't want to try myself.

I will get the most use I can out of the calc with the fresher battery pack. There must be someone out there who re-cells and resells (I love homophones!) BP-7 battery packs.

Les


#41

Send me a mailing address and I will send a little adapter that allows you to use a nine volt battery without changing the built in connector.

#42

A lot of people don't know much about copyright laws and I think this seller was probably in that category. (His other current auctions were for physical items.) He said he was given the files by someone else and didn't know that they were copyrighted. I think he was under the impression that HP had made these files, and that I happened to collect them and sell them but he understands now. Also, I think he thought that out-of-print meant no longer copyrighted. I've told him that that isn't the case either.

This reminds me of something my lawyer said to me once: "95% of the time when someone wants to hire me defend them for 'fair use', I have to tell them that that wasn't 'fair use'." There are a lot of misconceptions out there, I guess.

In any case, this case is closed and I appreciate the report and the help!

Thanks to Mike for offering to acquire the files for checking!


#43

I don't like to see people hard work being taken advantage of, especially when they host great websites like Dave's which I have used over the years and got me into the older HP calcs with all the detailed info and stories.

#44

I have obtained a copy of one of the manuals from this CD being sold on eBay, from one of the buyers.

Here is the HP-33E Quick Reference from that CD

The only thing different in the filename is that I substituted the Underscore (_) for space, to make links work.

Now, here is the HP-33E QRG from the HP Museum CD

From Dave's CD

Scroll down on first page and notice the small spot to the right of the "RCL n" key. That spot wouldn't be on two seperately scanned images.

You can also tell by other scan artifacts that are identical between the two files.

He is merely reselling Dave's CD files

Edited: 27 Nov 2006, 9:27 p.m.


#45

I have looked at your website, and I have subsequently removed the auctions as they are obviously copies of your scans.

I was given the files in good faith that they were collated from "various sources" by this person, it would appear that he was not being entirely accurate with this statement.

Incidentally, doesn't copyright last 25 years? or is it interminable? I can never remember.

Jim


#46

Good for you, doing the right thing

3. Works published from 1964 through 1978.
The initial copyrighted term of the work was 28 years from the date of publication, with an automatic renewal of an additional 67 years.

4. Works created on or after January 1, 1978.
The following rules apply to published and unpublished works:

For one author, the work is copyright-protected for the life of the author plus 70 years.
For joint authors, the work is protected for the life of the surviving author plus 70 years.
For works made for hire, the work is protected for 95 years from the first publication or 120 years from the date of its creation, whichever is less.
For anonymous and pseudonymous works, the work is protected for 95 years from the first publication or 120 years from the date of its creation, whichever is less. (However, if the author's name is disclosed to the U.S. Copyright Office, the work is protected for the life of the author plus 70 years.)

Edited: 28 Nov 2006, 10:28 a.m.


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