Hudendai - breaks eBay rules!



#2

I have seen the positive feedback Hudendai gets on this forum, and have considered buying items from him. However, it appears he is breaching eBay rules and acting unethically.

On October 22, Hudendai somehow orchestrated that the seller Dasentinel would end all 8 of his eBay listings current at the time to sell to Hudendai at prices far below typical prices. All 8 auctions were ended early in a 10 minute period.

If the link at the bottom does not work, do a search on eBay for completed items by seller Dasentinel.

How does an HP 12C for $9.09 sound (eBay item 280040443445)? Would you end an auction early? Or an HP 48G for $15.50 (280040423890)? What about an HP 41CX in "Almost New Condition" for $76 (280040414130)? In all 3 cases, Hudendai entered his bid IMMEDIATELY before the auction was cancelled. There is clear evidence of this shenanigan being prearranged for all 8 auctions.

Sure, the seller (who appears to be new) is also part of this, but since Hudendai is a respected member of the HP community, who wants to buy from him, knowing he circumvents the eBay process, which attempts to put everyone on a level playing field?


http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=so&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sadis=200&fpos=20008&fis=2&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&seller=1&sass=dasentinel&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search


#3

This is choice! The HP 48G that Hudendai bought for $15.50 (280040423890) is the model that he sells on eBay for $149! (item 300037869205)


#4

Thank you. This is quite sad. I'm curious to read the explanations by Hudendai.

#5

While I find this sort of thing distasteful, I don't think it's unethical or that it violate any eBay rules.

#6

What 'ya expect? It's not his first time getting a newbie seller to close out early and sell the whole enchilada for cheap!

Just because you're jealous that he buys well doesn't make him anything other than a guy trying to make a buck. Come on, Anybody flipping the same stuff both bought and resold on ebay in any 90 day period is bound to found out by those watching on the sidelines. Great sport isn't it?

Here are a few more of his "Good Deals", all from the same seller:

120025415877
120025418073
120025420500
120025427372
120025423790
120025430662
120025432666
120025436520
120025383219
120025391081
120025394432
120025396688
120025407711
120025404892
120025411956
120025401381
120025437753
120025439952
120025441339


#7

I don't feel that he did anything unethical.


#8

You don't understand, he's not buying those items for $0.99 but he agrees with the seller for a given price, which is higher than the actual price, and asks the seller to end the auction early to a very low price so that he pays almost no ebay fees. This is illegal on ebay because this way you're circumventing ebay fees.


#9

"Illegal on Ebay"

Where have I heard that before :-/

Christ. It isn't "Law." It's E-bay! And do you really know the rules? My guess is "no".


#10

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

Suggest everyone read the rules before responding.

Edited: 24 Oct 2006, 10:23 p.m.


#11

Quote:
Offers to buy or sell listed items outside of the eBay site are not permitted. Offers of this nature are a potential fraud risk for both buyers and sellers and circumvent eBay's fees.

Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

*

Listing cancellation
*

Limits on account privileges
*

Account suspension
*

Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
*

Loss of PowerSeller status


That looks pretty cleaer to me.

I see now.

#12

Hello!

Quote:
Christ. It isn't "Law." It's E-bay!

eBay provides nothing but a platform where individuals can close a sales contract about a specific item. The terms and conditions of these contracts are the (in?)famous "eBay rules". By offering an item on eBay or bidding on it, you accept these conditions as _legal_ basis of your contract. In fact, you will close two contracts upon entering an item in eBay: One with eBay itself, that regulates their fees and commissions, and the other one with your future buyer.

Violating the bilaterally agreed-upon rules underlying a contract is considered as fraud, at least in our country (Germany) and, as far as I know, in all other countries where eBay has established its presence. And in all these countries, fraud is a criminal offence and therefore against the law!

For me, eBay is a wonderful place - but in order to keep it that way, I fully agree with those people, who fight against abuse and fraudulent behaviour of certain sellers!

Greetings, Max

Edited: 25 Oct 2006, 12:42 p.m.

#13

Buyers don't pay ebay fees.

Quote:
...he pays almost no ebay fees..



Edited: 24 Oct 2006, 8:52 p.m.

#14

It is quite legal and ethical for a seller to end an auction early and sell to the high bidder. Ebay even has a preset message that it displays when this happens. Read the top line of the auctions.

#15

Oh, my goodness! He may actually be making money!!

Someone should put a stop to that behavior immediately. I mean, where would we be if people could just go off and make money whenever they please?

Oh, wait..

regards,
Howard

#16

Dear Shocker,


This is not an ebay forum.

I am sorry you feel that getting things cheaply is unethical. For example, this $8.49 Texas Instruments 33S auction ended on time and well below market value and I dont see any complaints from you about the price. Is it illegal?? Unethical?? No, I simply got a good deal.

Quote:
he circumvents the eBay process, which attempts to put everyone on a level playing field?

Most Ebay policies are designed around one and only one thing: EBAY profit. Anyone who has sold a thing will quickly learn this. I strictly abide by Ebay policies (unfamiliar to you), but I am not sympathetic about Ebay making less money if I get a good deal on a thing. Are you?

Quote:
It is quite legal and ethical for a seller to end an auction early and sell to the high bidder. Ebay even has a preset message that it displays when this happens. Read the top line of the auctions.

Dave is quite right. You will see on the right side of any listing the following options:

They are free for you (or anyone else) to ask sellers questions. You have a keyboard and mouse same as I do. If you'd like offer to buy the whole lot, you are free to do so. (See also Ebay's related best offer feature.)

Edited: 24 Oct 2006, 8:46 p.m.


#17

You're right, ending a sale early to sell the item to the highest bidder or submitting a best offer are features both accepted and promoted by ebay. If you contact a seller to buy a whole lot at the current price and the seller accepts to end the auctions early because it's more convenient for him to deal with one single buyer, it's also ok. In this case, you should pay the actual value of the items at the time the auctions ended (i.e. if an auction ends with a value of $0.99 then you should pay $0.99 for this item).

In the example of the 19 items that hudendai bought from snoopyrunwild (see post from "more shockers"), 9 of them ended with a value of $0.99, for a total value of around $530. If hudendai really paid $530 for the lot, then he did nothing wrong, he just made a lucky deal.

But if he made a deal with seller to buy the whole lot for a higher value, then he is breaking ebay rules (see http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html)

“Offers to buy or sell listed items outside of the eBay site are not permitted. Offers of this nature are a potential fraud risk for both buyers and sellers and circumvent eBay's fees.

Some examples of offers outside of the eBay site include:

  • Ending a listing early to sell the item at a higher price to the winning bidder “

Given the nature of the 9 items that sold for $0.99, which include 2 x hp-49g, 2 x hp-48g, hp-48s, 2x hp-28s, hp-21 and an hp-41c, it is reasonable to think that hudendai did pay more than the listed price and therefore violated ebay policies.


#18

Well, the transaction is in poor taste. I've found that these transactions tend to be the result of one or more of these:

1. Stupidity
2. Greed
3. Desperation

At least we can see who is involved. I tend to become the victim of either the "Seller ended listing early because there was an error in the listing" or "Seller has ended the listing early because the item is no longer available." This gives me the impression that either the item did not bring what dollar amount the seller wanted or the seller got greedy and accepted an outside offer.

How you conduct yourself within e-bay gives others an impression of how trustworthy you are. Personally, I enjoy being able to sleep at night.

Tony

#19

Hello Allen,

So, you buy at low price and sell at high price. Could you explain me where is my interest in your business ?

Patrick


#20

Quote:
So, you buy at low price and sell at high price. Could you explain me where is my interest in your business ?

This seems to me to be a very odd criticism.

Every functioning business on the planet strives to make as large as possible the gap between their expenses and their prices; what they then do with the difference between those determines what kind of business they are. Some choose to re-invest it in their own future, some choose to save the planet with it, and some choose to spend it on rock-and-roll.

Note, by the way, that I have no idea what Allen plans to do with the millions he has clearly begun to siphon from eBay's abundant calculator pipelines. But I don't begrudge him his enormous future fortune either, and I'm confused about why anyone else would. It's not like he's going around coshing old ladies for their inheritances, or bribing officials to change the law.

Given how open eBay is, compared with almost any other market, if someone else thought they could do the same trading as Allen while paying more to buyers, or charging less to sellers, then they're free to step in and do so. If they're right, Allen will be the loser, and everyone else will be a winner.

I think that would be better all round than just acting like wannabe members of the eBay Police.


#21

There is no criticism in my question. I'm just asking Allen what is my benefit by buying from him rather than from the original seller. What is Allen's added value ?

This is an opportunity for Allen to explain his business. Does he just make money or does he sell any service ? As a potential buyer, I would like to know.

Regards,

Patrick

#22

why, exactly should he should be concerned about your interest? If you don't like his prices, bid on other auctions as there are plenty of them. If you want to contact a seller to see if they will end the auction early at a low price, then do so. You are responsible for your own interests.

#23

Allen,

eBay policies are not just to ensure that eBay makes revenue, but to encourage people to participate by feeling that they have a fair chance. If individuals know they are at a disadvantage to dealers, they are less likely to participate.

The seller did not arbitrarily decide to end all 8 auctions at the same time, since the fact that Hudendai entered a higher bid, following which the auction was terminated, shows prearrangement.

This is not an issue of whether Hudendai gets his things cheaply, but an issue of whether he is breaking eBay rules. "Ending a listing early to sell the item at a higher price to the winning bidder" (http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html).

Members of this forum who use eBay should be aware of the actions of Hudendai on eBay, realize they are disadvantaged by his behavior, and decide whether to buy items from him which he has acquired in this manner.

As for your comment on the Best Offer feature, this is not relevant, since Best Offer was not available for these auctions.

#24

Quote:
This is not an ebay forum.

Funny, you didn't have a problem with it being one a few weeks ago when many here supported you... now it is not an eBay forum because it doesn't suit you?

IMO, regardless of what we would like, it becomes an eBay forum for two reasons. One, because there are few other places for the HP collectors to meet. Two, because Dave allows it, up to a point. If it gets too contentious, I'm sure he'll put the fire out. It has been done before.

Granted, most who come here are not your buyers as you tend to sell more common, higher demand HP's (48GX,32Sii). But, there are a lot of people here that watch and you cannot hide in a market in which you publicly buy and sell. This kind of stuff comes with the terriorty in which you are operating. Accept it for I think there is little you can do to convince a few you are 100% legit. IMO, it is more an emotional issue than one of "rules", whatever they may be. The more you defend your position, the weaker it becomes.


#25

I don't think I would ever buy anything from Allen but it's just because I don't see the need for paying that kind of prices. However, I can not see anything wrong in what he did. He bought stuff from people at prices they were willing to sell and sold stuff to people who were willing to buy. I simply see no wrong in that.
I myself have bought HP calcs for as low as 50 cents and sold it for $200 and not thru ebay or any auction. I did make a profit. Did I do something wrong then?


#26

Aside from any debate I remark that it's getting harder to create one's collection of HP stuff nowadays. If I recall 10 years from now, eBay was here already but things were more easily available. I went there a few days ago and found little of interest : no 25, no 55, no 65... Or maybe my old search techniques don't belong there any more.

This makes me regret to have been a newcomer (in the 90s) when othere like our friend Dave had already more than started their collections. Wow these must have been interesting times in the beginning of the 80s when LCD was the new rage and probably many HP users were 'dumping' their older model for a then-new 41.

This reminds me of why I was never an HP user back in school days : HP was always much more expensive, and IMHO mostly due to middle men for which $1 = 10 French Francs, while the financial rate was rather 6. This alone made the deal a no-no, and I wonder what would have happened if these vultures had not created barriers impossible to overcome for the average student. Installed base or market share is not insignificant even for marketers. HP was responsible in part at least too, for supporting that "business model", even in the so called golden era. And once you're educated with certain tools, you tend to keep them...

#27

I believe what is now in dispute is not that the buyer bought at a low price and then sold at a higher one, but that the means through which the items were bought may have cut some corners.

Sometimes the higher prices seem warranted based on demand (e.g. a high-quality HP42S may go for as high as $300). Other times, the high prices almost seem unethical (e.g. a certain seller selling a beatup HP42S for $450). Legally, you can price your items however you wish.


#28

I disagree that the high prices are unethical. I often think that they are unrealistic, but I exercise my freedom and decide not to buy an item for more than I think its worth. Hudendai and coburlin always ask more than I am willing to pay and I therefore don't buy from them. I have not had a problem getting HP's from ebay in good shape at reasonable amounts from other sellers.


#29

Quote:
I disagree that the high prices are unethical. I often think that they are unrealistic, but I exercise my freedom and decide not to buy an item for more than I think its worth. Hudendai and coburlin always ask more than I am willing to pay and I therefore don't buy from them. I have not had a problem getting HP's from ebay in good shape at reasonable amounts from other sellers.


Well, perhaps I should clarify my standpoint. The high price alone is not unethical. It's the fact that the price is unusually high for what is oftentimes an extremely used and poor condition item that a single, blurry photo and a short paragraph does not capture. At least hudendai has high-res photos so you can see the details (of the front, anyway). On the other hand, it is easy to check coburlin's history too find out what the REAL conditions of the items are.

Then again, it's a free, capitalist country. And we as consumers and choose to not buy :-)


#30

we are in agreement on this

#31

Ditto here, too.

That's what frosts me most about Coburlin He sells crap for premium prices. Hudendai's high resolution photos often present extremely nice looking machines. That makes me think that there may be a value proposition there, albeit one that is too rich for my blood. With Coburlin I'm sure I'd get ripped off.

Regards,
Howard


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