HP call center is moving from India to China due to American customers complaints about the fact that Indians don't speak a very good English.
Call Center moving
|
10-08-2006, 05:31 AM
10-08-2006, 08:48 AM
Whoever complained has not read HP manuals printed (and written) in China. I don't know who is writing manuals at HP, but language use and quality are poor. The writers' native language is certainly not English. Chinese maybe. Grammar errors are frequent, and it is necessary to read twice to figure out what the author(s) is(are) trying to say. And that not to mention the lack of examples. The good manuals HP used to provide are gone. First were manuals, now call centers. Nonsense.
10-08-2006, 01:21 PM
I have to wonder how moving from India to China actually remedies the complaints about the help service people not speaking English well.
10-08-2006, 02:39 PM
Almost all Indians are taught English and handle it rather well. The same is not true for China. The Chinese languages are much further from English than the Indian languages. Anybody that says or beleives the switch was due to language proficency is just plain wrong.
10-08-2006, 02:48 PM
I believe English has been used as a official language within India since colonial times, from which a strong dialect has emerged. Conversely the Chinese have to learn English elocution afresh, without established habits. In my experience Chinese spoken English is a lot closer to International English ( other than the dropping of 'L's which seems to be a tone perception problem common to both Chinese and Japanese). Annoyingly the Indian help desks I deal with, frequently insist on replying to e-mails by phone, causing me much listening stress while I attempt to tune into the accent.
10-08-2006, 02:57 PM
If the manual for the 33s is a representative sample, the China printed manuals seem very good to me...concise, coherent English, and no glaring grammatical gaffs that I can see.
10-08-2006, 05:24 PM
I agree with Donald. From my own experience, the common Indian "English" is quite a challenge in pronounciation and wording as well. This is my purely personal view after 5 years of English (not American) in school, working for US-American companies, and traveling a lot in business and private, also to India (Punjab).
10-08-2006, 06:01 PM
For spoken English I find the accents of some regions of the U.S.A. (and even England itself!) very difficult to understand. Of course, here in Michigan (with notable exceptions where many Southerners have moved in), we speak perfect English. ;-) Written English can be a different story though. Often it's easier for me to communicate in writing, but I've seen plenty of written "English" that I couldn't make any sense of.
Regards,
10-08-2006, 06:36 PM
The calculator group has been and continues to be based in the USA. It is Dean's first post here and look at the responses. Please don't feed the trolls. :(
Edited: 8 Oct 2006, 6:38 p.m.
10-08-2006, 06:42 PM
Hal posted,
Quote: The HP-33S manual was largely copied from the HP-32SII manual that was developed and prepared in the US. That being acknowledged, I'd say that the typesetting and appearance of the HP-33S manual is better than its predecessor. -- KS
10-08-2006, 07:11 PM
Quote:
You bet! And, believe me, we have to deal with a lot of them when trying to figure out how to set up some new electronic component. I always prefer to read the original in english if available.
10-08-2006, 07:23 PM
Juan posted,
Yes, the quality and adequacy of the manuals has certainly nosedived since the halcyon days of the late 1970's and early 1980's. Perhaps the "zenith" of the manuals were those of the Spice series (introduced 1978-79), HP-41 (1979-1983), Voyager series (1981-1982), and HP-71B (1983). They contained excellent and thorough technical writing, quality paper stock, nice illustrations and examples with one or two colors other than black -- and few if any errors. On the basis of a manual's content and physical quality to the capability of its calculator, the HP-34C manual from 1979 might be the best-ever -- three colors, full detail about the new SOLVE and INTEG functions, and spiral-bound. The HP-15C manual from 1982 is also of excellent quality, and was well-translated and published in German, French, and Portugese, to name several languages. The optional Advanced Functions Handbook supplemented the HP-15C manual significantly with sophisticated mathematical material and its application to the HP-15C. Cost-cutting measures were imposed as the prices of the calculators dropped, which reduced the revenue available for the "supporting" components of the product. For example, the newly-published HP-41CX and HP-71B manuals of 1983 were flat-bound instead of spiral-bound. The HP-11C and HP-15C manuals went flat-bound around 1986. The manuals for the Pioneer-series models in 1988 took a step backward, as the calculators became ever-more capable and affordable. Dumbed-down writing, less adequate detail and examples, and lower-quality lithography were evident. The HP-48 and HP-49 manuals released a few years later did not meet generally-accepted standards of adequacy, especially given that the calculators were more complex than ever before. The basic lesson of this? "You don't get what you don't pay for." -- KS
Edited: 9 Oct 2006, 3:45 a.m. after one or more responses were posted
10-09-2006, 01:43 AM
With the power of calculators going up while prices are going down, it is understandable why today's manuals don't compare in completeness and physical quality to those of the past. My suggestion: the manufacturer can include a basic manual with the calculator, then make quality higher-level manuals available on CD and/or online for free, or printed advanced manuals for sale.
10-09-2006, 03:42 AM
John posted,
Quote: From the standpoint of the "economic dilemma", this is not an unreasonable suggestion. In fact, HP did just that with the Advanced User's Guide for the HP-48, which is also quite applicable to the HP-49. I ought to obtain it sometime, except I know that I will not put forth the time and effort to become proficient with the RPL-based models. It still bothers me, though, that the package received for the purchase price of a high-end calculator does not always include an adequate user's manual. If the manufacturer can't afford to develop, produce, and provide such a manual at the point of sale, maybe the calculator is too complicated, or the price is too low. -- KS
10-09-2006, 08:37 AM
During WWII, South-central Michigan was the source of the most neutral accent--the most universally intelligible accent--for voice radio operators.
Specifially not the urban areas of Detroit, Toledo &c, which have a distinctive dialect that they share with other northern cities such as Cleavelanad, and all the way to Rochester NY and Chicago Illinois. Edited: 9 Oct 2006, 8:39 a.m.
10-11-2006, 12:46 AM
James, I take it your letter is with "Tongue-in-cheek," which explains why it sounds goobledegookish. I have lived all over the Northern Hemisphere and give you a different perspective. The Scotts speak the most difficult dialect of "English" and the Irish run a close second. The Germans, speaking English as a 2nd language claim to speak "perfect" English, but really, the first word they learn in a foreign language is, after all, "perfect." I was a wee ladd during the second world war, but I distinctly recall it being asserted that the most pure "American" dialect came from San Francisco while the nearest thing to the "King's" English in America in those days came from the well-educated in the Southeastern states. I married a girl from Michigan therefore I am precluded from speaking for or against "Midwest speak." Ron
10-11-2006, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Well yes; that's why I included the ";-)". Of course, whichever
Quote:
"Goobledegookish"? I think that my post is quite clear. Although
I read somewhere or other that the goal of a writer should be to
Quote:
That could well be. I think that, as California was largely
Of course, now mass communications tends to encourage a
Quote: Of course, that means that they were educated in Michigan. ;-)
I note that "the King's English" isn't necessarily the easiest for
The Southeast may well have tended to retain the dialect of the
For what it's worth, I've read that some relatively isolated
I expect that, in general, the more isolated a community is, the
The closest to my idea of "the King's English" that I've ever
My "French" relatives of my grandmother's generation (descended
I've been told that my first-generation "German"
I think that my predominantly German ancestry neighborhood still
For me, understanding someone (not necessarily "well-educated")
Quote:
"Midwest"? I tend to think of Michigan as being the heart of the
But surely she wouldn't object to your saying something "for" her
Regards,
10-11-2006, 12:13 PM
Well, I'm Italian, so I shouldn't take part to this derived-post. But one of the things taht delights me more is the existence of foreign languages. I like foreign languages and most of all I like English. I like when I hear American and British people in the same conversation. I go mad when I watch a film (doubled in Italian) in which a particular gag, depending on the fact it's performed by an American in England or by an Englishman in America, is completely lost in the translation. I get angry when I read english books with a bad translation (sometimes I buy or borrow the original version). So I found your post very interesting, letting me take a look to what an American thinks about his own language and to his experience in hearing other U.S. variants. Have you ever written something about the subject? [A.O.T. means Absolutely Off Topic, of course] -- Antonio
10-11-2006, 12:25 PM
Hi James. Quote:and I thank you very much for that care you take - I always like posts written with an eye to non-mother tongue people, for a couple of (simple?) reasons: 1) that shows the attitude towards spreading knowledge 2) the same ease my understanding of - sometimes - hard subjects. Thanks again. All the best. Giancarlo
10-11-2006, 02:01 PM
Is it true that there is or was a law in Italy requiring dubbing into italian?
Edited: 11 Oct 2006, 2:02 p.m.
10-11-2006, 02:05 PM
I like Indian english in all its singsongy variations. Chinese english is awkward. Though some of my grad school friends made the transition and became very good speakers, while retaining color.
10-11-2006, 02:07 PM
Before their was babelfish, there were those european instruction manuals (e.g. campagnolo derailleurs etc) with all the eurolanguages.
10-11-2006, 02:43 PM
I have no arguments with most you have to say. With regard to my remark about Michigan wife - my tongue in cheek of course - nobody in same room with someone from Michigan allowed to speak. Seems to me that the purpose of language is to communicate. That pretty well depends on where one is at the moment and what it is that one is attempting to communicate. Any stilted "perfect" grammer in a room full of blue collar workers will usually fail to communicate the correct message for example. This opens the subject of "body language" and credibilty. Too many English teachers are servants of the language rather than masters. Grammer is important as are all the basics of communication. A failure to communicate is just what it is, an open loop. Some way to close the loop must be a part of the whole thing (or we lack "closure," as the cocktail circle is prone to say). "Pontificate" is not a synonym for "communicate." "Respect" is a better word to use when describing a good user of the language. " Prose writers and Poets have great respect for language. They engage the reader's emotions and all of their senses. Ron
10-11-2006, 03:44 PM
Quote:But surely Italian also has various dialects? And Italians with some fluency in English notice at least some of the various English dialects. Quote:Me too, but the only ones that I've ever studied are Latin and German. I very rarely have any compelling reason to actually make use of them, but since they're "ancestral" to English (sometimes, especially for Latin, through a different language), I think that knowing a bit about them helps me to know English a little better.
English does seem to be the modern "common language", which surely Quote:I think that my favourite would have to be Yiddish, although all that I know of it a few words and phrases that have sometimes been used in American books.
But Italian may be the easiest language to make fun of; just add a
Quote:"Two nations separated by a common language" comes to mind.
Here in Southeastern Michigan, we have a fair number of
But I've also noticed that fairly often, "English as a second Quote:I note that it must be very difficult to translate a joke and retain the humor. Quote:I've often suspected that something was lost in the translation of books that I've read translated to English, but the original versions would be useless to me. For that matter, even Chaucer translated to modern English tends to lose some of the nuances that become apparent after a few readings of the original dialect. Sometimes reading different translations of the same work can bring out different nuances. I don't think that "exact translations" are possible for anything except perhaps single words and short phrases, but some translations are a lot better than others. Quote:Well thank you, I'm glad to read that it was appreciated. I suppose that we may all sound pretty much alike to others, while "native speakers" are more likely to notice relatively subtle differences. Quote:No, except perhaps a few posts here in this Forum or in the comp.sys.hp48 newsgroup. I've never been a professional writer. Quote:Thanks for clarifying that.
Regards,
10-11-2006, 04:00 PM
Quote: Absolutely! But the other side of the coin with Chaucer is that there are many places where you think you know what the meaning is because the word looks like a modern english word, and yet the meaning has completely shifted! One of my favorite books is Seamus Heaney's translation of Biowulf. his version is side by side with the original. It is great fun and his poem is really beautiful, too.
10-11-2006, 05:07 PM
You're welcome.
On my part, I'm impressed by how well those who often post in this
Yes, part of the reason for my efforts to write carefully is to
Of course, careful use of English isn't only for the benefit of
I'm particularly annoyed when someone who apparently learned
Regards,
10-11-2006, 06:10 PM
Yes, Chaucer is best read, at least the first few times, with a
For that matter, I think that the same applies to Shakespeare,
In a way, it seems rather a pity that at least part of The
Regarding Beowulf, I long ago gave up on any hope of ever
Regards,
10-11-2006, 10:18 PM
What you have said is all so true. Punctuation, capitalization, amoung other things are so important. Not to observe these rules is sloppy lazyness. tm
10-12-2006, 03:52 AM
bill wrote: Quote: No, I don't think so. It's only convenience, since for the majority of Italian people English is like Chinese. And you may ask about subtitles: well, in the land of Fellini and Zeffirelli subtitles are simply ugly. Of course, this is not my thought. I bless the coming of DVDs with the original track and subtitles. Maybe something is moving... -- Antonio
10-12-2006, 03:58 AM
Quote: Maybe A.O.T. has a special offensive meaning in current American? -- Antonio
10-12-2006, 02:52 PM
Quote: Very unlikely. Otherwise it would be listed here: http://www.stands4.com/bs.asp?st=AOT&SE=1 Gerson
10-14-2006, 11:24 PM
Quote: I love Heaney's Beowulf also. In fact, I love Old English in general. My signature file that is appended to all my email and USENET postings contains this:
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
10-14-2006, 11:28 PM
Quote: My youngest son is a senior in high school and his English class is studying The Canterbury Tales right now.
10-16-2006, 08:45 AM
:-)
10-16-2006, 03:20 PM
:-) |
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
|