HP35s  Printable Version + HP Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum) + Forum: HP Museum Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum1.html) + Forum: Old HP Forum Archives (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum2.html) + Thread: HP35s (/thread249863.html) 
HP35s  Richard Berler  09092013 When raising complex numbers to some power, the x root y won't work nor will x^2, yet y^x works. 3 root x fails for complex numbers, but x^ 1/3 works. Why?
Re: HP35s  Dieter  09092013 Because this is the way the 35s was designed. Some functions work in the complex domain, others don't. For instance, the root keys are for real arguments only, while the y^x key can handle complex input as well. Take a look at the manual. It has a list of all functions that will work with complex numbers.
Dieter
Re: HP35s  Thomas Klemm  09092013 Quote: However this doesn't give the answer to why they only implemented this subset. Karl Schneider gave a plausible explanation.
Cheers
Edited: 9 Sept 2013, 3:20 p.m.
Re: HP35s  Thomas Radtke  09092013 Quote:This should be answered by the people responsible for the specs sheet  HP. I might be wrong, but I take it this way: The real root is faster to calculate, so on a *programmable* calculator used by people mostly interested in real results, this makes a lot of sense. The 35s, along with its predecessors, is targeted at education, not engineering. The 15C does a better job by flagging the desired mode. Maybe the 32S was on the edge in terms of memory to use this concept, and obviously the 35s is designed to follow its traces.
All just speculations, of course.
Re: HP35s  Thomas Klemm  09092013 Quote: Now kids the real mystery about these complex numbers is that you can calculate the trigonometric functions but there's no way to find the inverse which your calculator proves returning INVALID DATA.
Cheers Re: HP35s  Ángel Martin  09092013
Quote: But of course, in that way you can't check the accuracy of the direct results :) That's probably because they wanted to avoid all those questions about "why the returned value doesn't match the initial"  being multivalued.
Cheers\'AM
Re: HP35s  Thomas Klemm  09092013 Then why did they provide ln z?
Re: HP35s  Richard Berler  09102013 It's really rather bizarre. Why wouldn't they put in the inverse functions and the hyperbolics and their inverses in the HP 35s's function universe for complex arguments? I put the equations for all of this in it's equation library, and it works just fine. Doesn't make sense...
Re: HP35s  Matt Agajanian  09102013 Could you post your equations here, please? These sound like essential additions to the trig function set. Much appreciated.
Re: HP35s  Thomas Radtke  09102013 Thomas, I had "Leistungskurs Mathe" (you know what that means, dunno what that might be in english), and when there was some time left, we were asked for our interests and how to fill the remaining weeks. I asked for complex numbers, and the answer of our teacher was: "I'll see if I can find a way to explain what they are." He never did and I left school without knowledge about it. Started functional analysis at university not before 3rd semester, introducing complex numbers to me. That was quite hard ;).
Maybe all this was because I live in northern germany, and hopefully things are better now.
Re: HP35s  Richard Berler  09102013
Math2.org Math Tables: Hyperbolic Trigonometric Identities
sinh(x) = ( ex  ex )/2 cosh(x) = ( e x + e x )/2 sech(x) = 1/cosh(x) = 2/( ex + ex ) tanh(x) = sinh(x)/cosh(x) = ( ex  ex )/( ex + ex ) coth(x) = 1/tanh(x) = ( ex + ex)/( ex  ex )
tanh2(x) + sech2(x) = 1 coth2(x)  csch2(x) = 1
arcsinh(z) = ln( z + (z2 + 1) ) arccosh(z) = ln( z (z2  1) ) arctanh(z) = 1/2 ln( (1+z)/(1z) ) arccsch(z) = ln( (1+(1+z2) )/z ) arcsech(z) = ln( (1(1z2) )/z ) arccoth(z) = 1/2 ln( (z+1)/(z1) )
sinh(z) = i sin(iz) csch(z) = i csc(iz) cosh(z) = cos(iz) sech(z) = sec(iz) tanh(z) = i tan(iz)
coth(z) = i cot(iz)
Re: HP35s  Ángel Martin  09102013 So you could program the missing ones!
Re: HP35s  Richard Berler  09102013 Here's more!
http://www.math.ethz.ch/education/bachelor/lectures/fs2012/other/ka_itet/TrigHypFunktionen.pdf
Re: HP35s  Thomas Klemm  09102013 That's kind of a sad story. Because it's not that difficult to explain imaginary numbers:
I had more luck with my teacher. He had an HP41C as well and allowed me to borrow PRISMA, the fanzine of the CCD (Computerclub Deutschland e.V.). One of the programs used Bairstow's method to solve a polynomial with real coefficients. This was far from what I would understand at that time. Many years later I wrote a program for the HP11C.
Quote: With the advent of the internet we have access to so much knowledge these days. The problem now is to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Kind regards Re: HP35s  Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)  09102013 Thanks! I love Calvin & Hobbes.
Re: HP35s  Joe Horn  09102013 All math is imaginary. Hanging in my classroom:
Re: HP35s  Massimo Gnerucci (Italy)  09102013 Hence: Re: HP35s  Dale Reed  09102013 Huh. I thought it was just a different integer base. English has thirteen simple names for numbers:
Zero, one, two, ... nine, ten, eleven, twelve. After that is "thirteen"  literally "three and ten". So English is perfect for counting in Base 13. After twelve comes "teen".
Oneteen, twoteen, thirteen, ... nineteen, tenteen, eleventeen, twelveteen. And after the nineties come the tenties, eleventies and twelveties.
Ninetyeleven, ninetytwelve, tenty, tentyone, tentytwo... And so after twelvetytwelve, comes onehundred base 13, which equals 169 decimal (a number I'm fond of for other reasons beyond the scope of this post). I especially like to use base 13 counting when I'm standing behind someone doing inventory... ;) Of course, in Spain, Latin American countries, etc., you count in hex.
Cero, uno, dos, tres, cuatro, ... once, doce, trece, catorce, quince... ... are the sixteen digits. So "veinte y catorce" is 2E hex. I think what started me thinking about all this was when Dennis the Menace used the number eleventeen back long ago (1950s? 1960s?). Anyway, my favorite number is eleventyseven. It just sounds cool. But imaginary? Hardly! Dale
p.s.: U2: 01, 02, 03, 0E ???
Edited: 10 Sept 2013, 7:29 p.m.
Re: HP35s  Thomas Klemm  09102013 A little girl once said to me: Thomas, you're so weird! I took it as a compliment and would like to pass it to you.
Cheers Re: HP35s  Dave Shaffer (Arizona)  09102013 Quote: Try French, where 97 is "quatrevingts dix sept" or 4 times twenty and ten and 7 (not sure about the "s" after vingt  it's been more than 40 years since I studied this!)
After years of attending scientific meetings at which English is invariably the language of the meeting, I have decided that you can figure out what somebody's true language is by listening to him/her count/recite numbers to him/herself.
Re: HP35s  Dale Reed  09102013 Thomas, If that was directed at me: Heard it. Often. For a long time. And thank you! Back atcha, fellow calcnut!
Dale
Re: HP35s  Dale Reed  09122013 Dave,
Try watching engineers attempting to speak in haiku counting on their fingers!
