Default angle mode - Printable Version +- HP Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum) +-- Forum: HP Museum Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-1.html) +--- Forum: Old HP Forum Archives (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-2.html) +--- Thread: Default angle mode (/thread-234898.html) Default angle mode - Eric Smith - 12-02-2012 The first thing I have to do after resetting a calculator for any reason is switch to radians mode. Just out of curiosity, how many people here would be upset if the default angle mode was radians rather than degrees? Or we could make the default angle mode grads, and annoy nearly everyone. :-) Re: Default angle mode - Harald - 12-02-2012 Quote: The first thing I have to do after resetting a calculator for any reason is switch to radians mode. Just out of curiosity, how many people here would be upset if the default angle mode was radians rather than degrees? That is the same for me, and I would welcome that. Quote: Or we could make the default angle mode grads, and annoy nearly everyone. :-) LOL :) Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who uses it? Re: Default angle mode - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 12-02-2012 Gradian / Grad / Gon was an attempt to extend the metric system to angles. The WikiPedia article states that it has its origins in France. Nowadays it's only in use by surveyors. Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-02-2012 Bring back the metric calendar.... - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - Andrés C. Rodríguez (Argentina) - 12-02-2012 I prefer degrees as first-time default, but the most important thing (absent in older calculators) is a visible indicator of angular mode. From a "real estate" point of view, it seems convenient to keep the GRAD and RAD annunciators, even if the default were RAD. As long as we have "continuous memory" for these settings, angular mode only needs to be set at first use or because a specific need. GRAD is good to normalize numbers in the 0-100 range with few keystrokes, for instance to simulate bouncing objects in a game. I never used it for angular or phase measurements. Re: Default angle mode - Nigel J Dowrick - 12-02-2012 The source code for the WP 34S firmware is supplied and freely editable, so minor changes such as default angular mode can be made by users if they are prepared to re-compile the code. Will the source code for this new machine be available in a similar way? Playing with the WP 34S source code has given me almost as much pleasure as using the actual calculator! Nigel (UK) Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-02-2012 There's a sourceforge project for this as well - but pretty empty so far. Re: Default angle mode - Egan Ford - 12-02-2012 I do the same. I would welcome RAD as the default. And it should be annunciated. Re: Default angle mode - Gerson W. Barbosa - 12-02-2012 I prefer DEG as the default angular mode. On the other hand, the change to RAD should require no more than three keystrokes. Re: Default angle mode - Ángel Martin - 12-02-2012 Nah, much better to change time so that hours have 100 minutes and these 100 seconds... Re: Default angle mode - C.Ret - 12-02-2012 Hi, I also prefered DEG as défault mode. Since I am using my calculator to compute navigational data, expressing in degree is mandatory. Please imagine the trouble if I send instruction to the pilot : " Prepare your weaponery system, coordinates of your target are N  W . Acknowledge reception. Confirm target identification". Edited: 2 Dec 2012, 2:11 p.m. Re: Default angle mode - Maximilian Hohmann - 12-02-2012 Quote:...Please imagine the trouble if I send instruction to the pilot : Prepare your weaponery system, coordinates of your target ... Please don't tell me that you calculate target coordinates with selfmade software on a pocket calculator? I think I need to dig a shelter in my garden tomorrow! And regarding the original question/poll: Degrees, please! Re: Default angle mode - Ethan Conner - 12-02-2012 DEG please. Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-02-2012 Quote: Please don't tell me that you calculate target coordinates with selfmade software on a pocket calculator? I think I need to dig a shelter in my garden tomorrow! US-American technology: homegrown but works - with some collateral damage sometimes :-/ Re: Default angle mode - Mike (Stgt) - 12-02-2012 Use BMT (Biel Mean Time). Ciao.....Mike Re: Default angle mode - Mike (Stgt) - 12-02-2012 RAD is all I need! Ciao.....Mike Re: Default angle mode - Gerson W. Barbosa - 12-02-2012 Quote: And regarding the original question/poll: Degrees, please! It looks like this is not a poll, but if it is I would suggest it is ended ASAP. Democracy is great, especially now that we DEGs are winning :-) "Democracy is when I rule, dictatorship is when YOU do!", Millôr Fernandes :-) Re: Default angle mode - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 12-02-2012 Nigel, are there any contributions worth considering inclusion in the WP 34S? Re: Default angle mode - Harald - 12-02-2012 Then a day would have 8.64 Hours. Hmm, not sure if I could get used to that :) Re: Default angle mode - Nigel J Dowrick - 12-02-2012 Thank you for asking! I've produced 5 modifications: the casio-style fraction separator making the exponent key enter pi if pressed at the start of numeric entry making 2..3 enter 2/3, rather than 2.0.3 a display mode that only displays a user-selectable number of significant figures, without going into exponent notation unless the number is too large or too small displaying the contents of the y-register on the dot matrix line I'm reasonably happy about the code; it has been running happily in my calculator for a couple of months now (and I use the calculator a lot!) I'm currently trying to make patch files for it; I could make these available when I'm sure that they're correct. (I coded all five changes together; separating them out, particularly the last two, is proving fiddly.) Nigel (UK) Re: Default angle mode - Dave Shaffer (Arizona) - 12-02-2012 Degrees for me Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-02-2012 I use degrees and radians about equally, but would prefer the default to be degrees. An on screen indication for degrees mode too is sensible. - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - htom trites jr - 12-02-2012 Grad I understand and don't think I've ever used except to demonstrate it. Rad I use not quite half the time. Deg I use a bit more than half, and wish for D. and DMS. as modes. There's also the various schemes using bit counts, with and without various codings, scalings, bounds, ... messy. Probably shouldn't do that one. Changing is annoying, and it doesn't seem to matter much which comes up when I start, I usually have to change it once or twice before I'm done with a session. It's more important that it be displayed and easy to change. Re: Default angle mode - Bill Carter - 12-02-2012 Degrees for me. When I find myself in radians, it usually reminds me to stop, drop, and roll into MathCad or Mathematica. Bill Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-03-2012 DEG about 75%, RAD 25%, GRAD 0%. And all shall be indicated - I suggest by °, pi, and g, respectively d:-) Re: Default angle mode - Eric Smith - 12-03-2012 I *much* prefer having the annunciator actually say DEG, RAD, or GRAD, rather than the suggested symbols. The proposed degree symbol makes sense, but it will result in users asking "what's the little zero in the display", just like they do for flags 0-4 of the HP-41. The "g" even more so. The pi symbol doesn't make much sense to me; if it was 2pi I'd get it instantly. I think showing 360 or 2pi for degrees and radians might be OK, but I think it's less obvious than simply DEG and RAD. As high-resolution as the display is, the annunciator could even be the full word. Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-03-2012 Did you ever think about people not speaking English? Then you'd realize why symbols are better. Think of all the other peoples sometimes at least ... d:-) So 360° and 2pi are more comprehensive than degrees and radians, and g is the international symbol for gon. BTW, please see p. 43 of the WP 34S manual. Edited: 3 Dec 2012, 3:22 a.m. Re: Default angle mode - Tim Wessman - 12-03-2012 Put a little angle symbol in front of the o, pi or g. That is what we will be doing... TW Edited: 3 Dec 2012, 10:22 a.m. Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-03-2012 Thanks for sharing. So it will look like <°, P and P->R. Of any calculator I use these function, I always have to look after the manual instruction (or try dummy value) to remember in which order I have to enter coordinates, distance or angle. A smart system, may interpret correctly polar coordinates (r, <_ a°) even when incorrectly entered as ( <_ a° , r ) . As well, the result of the conversion of Cartesian coordinate (x,y) will unambiguously return radius r , and angle <_ a° displayed with appropriate enunciators Edited: 4 Dec 2012, 5:49 a.m. Re: About equal rights - all languages are equal, some are more ;-) - Paul Dale - 12-04-2012 Seems like you're wanting units attached to results. - Pauli About units and annunciators - Walter B - 12-04-2012 Quote: For exemple 0.5 ASIN will return 30°, 0.52360rd, .16667pi.rd or 33.3333gr depending of current trig mode. Just a little remark - the second value carries no unitthe third is times pithe last value shall be 33.3333g since the unit is called gon internationally and the unit symbol was a lower case elevated g. I recognize units are a difficult topic ;-) And annunciators are a completely different cup of tea. d:-) Re: Default angle mode - Maximilian Hohmann - 12-04-2012 Hi! Quote:... does not apply here. Angles are almost always expressed in decimal degrees here d:-) Not "almost always" in my environment (aviation) unfortunately. There is a big mess between degress mintes seconds (.decimals) and degrees minutes.decimals depending on the source of data, even between different national sources. The flight management computer is built in the States and only accepts DMS.decimals so there is always some (maybe dangerous) potential for error and confusion. And this is what the angle mode selector of a calculator should look like :-) (please note also the _black_ background and _red_ _luminous_ display...) Re: About units and annunciators - C.Ret - 12-04-2012 Thank you for the correction, using gr instead of the I.U symbol is a bad personal habit that comes from intensive use and reading of very old local handbooks (using aged cgs unit system!). You right, enunciators and units are two different aspects. One more parameter to take into account is that most of users currently use only one unit/format. Having to specify units/format for each data entry can rapidly became boring and annoying. Peoples, who regularly have to handle several formats and units, generally have programmed specific subroutines to print out unambiguously results. Re: Default angle mode - Eric Smith - 12-04-2012 Yes, I think about people not speaking English, and I know from experience that they are completely familiar with "DEG" and "RAD" on calculators. Maybe they shouldn't have to be, but then, there seem to be other functions in the calculator that have English-centric names, the most obvious example being "ENTER", and I haven't heard much complaint about that. Re: Default angle mode - Eric Smith - 12-04-2012 I still think it should be 2pi, even with the angle symbol prefix. And unless the angle symbol is very clearly an angle symbol, people will misinterpret the degrees annunciator as meaning that something is less than zero. If I weren't going to use "DEG", "RAD", and "GRAD", I think I'd use <360, <2pi, and <400, respectively. Edited: 4 Dec 2012, 6:12 p.m. Re: Default angle mode - Egan Ford - 12-04-2012 Now you've done it. :-) To be international friendly I guess the ENTER key will have to be: ``` | | | <---------' ``` And the alphabet on the keyboard is clearly US(western)-centric. Now what? Edited: 4 Dec 2012, 6:57 p.m. Re: Default angle mode - Tim Wessman - 12-04-2012 That is why you use the "measured angle" character. Hard to interpret that as anything but. TW Re: Default angle mode - Kiyoshi Akima - 12-04-2012 And you need to be able to group digits in fours instead of threes, and provide an ENG-like display mode with exponents as multiples of four. Re: Default angle mode - Raymond Del Tondo - 12-05-2012 Quote:If I weren't going to use "DEG", "RAD", and "GRAD", I think I'd use <360, <2pi, and <400, respectively.And this could even be optimized to a single numeric digit: Just use 3, 2 or 4 , respectively, since everybody will know the meaning of the digit in the reserved place (This wasn't to be taken too serious, but the discussion seemed to go somewhat abroad somehow;-) More seriously, why not just use D,R and G ? This is what I use in SpeedUI, it's described in the doc, and it's near enough to the DEG,RAD, GRAD every user of HP scientific calcs from the LCD area (more than 32 years now) should be used to. Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-05-2012 Instead support internationalisation of messages and annunicators. - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-05-2012 See p. 39 of the WP 34S Owner's Manual. Does that grouping in steps of four also work in Japan? Re: Default angle mode - Raymond Del Tondo - 12-05-2012 Quote:Instead support internationalisation of messages and annunicators.I'm not sure if I understood you correctly. D,R and G are international. Example from the German Wikipedia about Radians:Quote:Taschenrechner und Computer Wissenschaftliche Taschenrechner berechnen Winkelfunktionen wahlweise in Radiant oder in Grad, manchmal zusätzlich auch in Gon. Der Modus zur Berechnung in Radiant ist auf den meisten Taschenrechnern mit „RAD“ oder "R" gekennzeichnet. which nearly literally translates into: Scientific calculators calculate angle functions in either degrees or radians, sometimes they also offer gon. The mode for calculating in radians is indicated with "RAD" or "R" on most calculators. After all it's simply a convention, as many things;-) If you want to make everyone happy, just make it configurable (short,long,short_sym,long_sym,custom) . Ray Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-05-2012 ... by simply taking over the international language of mathematics wherever possible. d:-) Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-05-2012 Quote:And you need to be able to group digits in fours instead of threes, and provide an ENG-like display mode with exponents as multiples of four. Doing either of these on the 34S would be reasonably straightforward and that is quite a statement given the very high level of complexity of the real number rendering code. Just wondering what benefits grouping by and exponents of four gives? Or is it cultural? Exponents being multiples of three match the metric system nicely and I figured this was the purpose of ENG mode. On the other hand, grouping digits by three is kind of arbitrary. It matches English numbering words and more weakly corresponds to the metric units. - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-05-2012 Quote:If you want to make everyone happy, ... This will never be possible :-) There will be compromises and limitations. - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - Paul Dale - 12-05-2012 Even that isn't always clear. LG vs LOG. ASIN vs SIN-1 vs ARCSIN vs ARCSINE..... - Pauli Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-05-2012 That's cultural. Chinese count in multiples of 1, 10, 100, 1000, and 10000 (yi1, shí, bai3, qian1, wàn). I'll look if I find the picture of a corresponding calculator. d:-) Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-05-2012 ... wherever possible! d:-) Re: Default angle mode - Raymond Del Tondo - 12-05-2012 Maybe someone should start a poll about this... Re: Default angle mode - Fred Lusk - 12-05-2012 Thanks for the info. I probably should said "possibly some other parts of the world." Re: Default angle mode - Fred Lusk - 12-05-2012 Working in grads and not knowing it would certainly make for a frustrating day. When I was in college in the late 1970s, I spent one very hot summer on a survey crew. For several weeks, I and another college student were assigned to a project to retrace and remonument the 1940s-era federal government boundary around Pine Flat Reservoir in the foothills east of Fresno, CA. The boundary was intended to follow a contour that was 10 feet above the high water level in the reservoir. Unfortunately, our party chief was not the sharpest knife in the drawer and daily high temps averaged about 105°F (41°C). Oh, and due to drought conditions from the previous winter, the reservoir was over 100 feet below high water so we got no cooling effect from the lake. On our first day in the field the party chief had me searching for a wooden peg monument in the very middle of an unbroken 30-foot-wide slab of granite. I told my party chief that there was no way a wooden peg could ever have been pounded into the granite, but all he could do was scream at me for my incompetence. We checked and we rechecked. We had the correct distance from the previous monument, (~350 feet). We had the correct deflection angle from a reverse of the backsight…that is, until my college buddy (who was holding the instrument end of the chain) took another look at the theodolite and discovered that our party chief was exactly 10 degrees off. With the correct angle, I shifted laterally ~60 feet and found the monument in less than a minute. He didn't apologize. About two weeks later our traverse ran smack dab through the middle of a 3-foot-diameter pine tree. While the party chief was planning a path around the tree on the steep side slope (about 1.5H:1V), I remarked that a tree that large was probably at least 200 years old and that the original boundary could not possibly have been routed that way (plus, any tree that close to the high water should have been cleared). He said it must have been "a fast-growing tree" and he berated me for "not understanding surveying" and "questioning his professional abilities." However, when I asked to see the field book and the copy of the old gov't survey we were trying to follow, he handed them to me, though he told me I probably wouldn't understand them. As I flipped back through the pages I stumbled across what appeared to be a math error on an angle. A few button pushes on my HP-55 confirmed the error. He has busted an angle four days before by exaclty one degree and had us slowly marching uphill instead of following the coutour. Had the reservoir been full, it would have been obvious. We lost almost the entire four days worth of work. He didn't apologize, though he did get reamed by his boss. Finally, we were supposed to set signs along the boundary. The signs were to be placed at ~200-foot intervals, 3 feet inside the boundary, and facing out. The signs and posts were about the same size as for stop signs. We had to hand auger the holes, then set the posts in cement. In some cases, we had to carry water and 94-lb sacks of cement up to half a mile. Our party chief screwed up again. He located two day's worth of posts outside the boundary facing in, despite our protests that he was wrong. He didn't apologize, but he was fired that week. It's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time. :-) Edited: 5 Dec 2012, 1:36 p.m. Re: Default angle mode - Eddie W. Shore - 12-06-2012 Quote: The first thing I have to do after resetting a calculator for any reason is switch to radians mode. Just out of curiosity, how many people here would be upset if the default angle mode was radians rather than degrees? Or we could make the default angle mode grads, and annoy nearly everyone. :-) Radians is fine with me. Re: Default angle mode - Derek Walker (UK) - 12-06-2012 Quote: It's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time. :-) I think that it's that sort of experience that is described as "character-forming", and it's just such painful events that typically stick in the memory long after smooth-running jobs are largely forgotten. Fortunately the passage of time and the glow of nostalgia mellow the grief one felt at the time. Chinese calculator - Walter B - 12-09-2012 As promised: Re: Default angle mode - From Hong Kong - 12-09-2012 The rightmost digit of a decimal integer is better called ge4(­Ó) rather than yi4(¤@¡^. This digit position is called ge4 wei4(­Ó¦ì). We call various digit positions as follows: n ge4(­Ó) n0 shi2(¤Q) n00 bai3(¦Ê) n,000 qian1(¤d) n0,000 wan4(¸U) n00,000 shi2 wan4(¤Q¸U) n,000,000 bai3 wan4(¦Ê¸U) n0,000,000 qian1 wan4(¤d¸U) n00,000,000 yi4(»õ) n,000,000,000 shi2 yi4(¤Q»õ) Edited: 10 Dec 2012, 4:02 a.m. after one or more responses were posted Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-09-2012 Quote: The rightmost digit of a decimal integer is better called ge4(­Ó) rather than yi4(¤@¡^. This digit position is called ge4 wei4(­Ó¦ì). Thanks for the information - I stay corrected :-) Alas, the characters you included are not displayed here properly (no idea what I can do to change that), so I have to guess: You are talking about ge4 like in yi4 ge4 ren2, aren't you? d:-) Re: Default angle mode - From Hong Kong - 12-10-2012 Those characters are Traditional Chinese characters. You could change the code to "Traditional Chinese (Big 5)" to view them. Traditional Chinese is commonly used in Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau whereas Simplified Chinese is used in Mainland China, Singapore and Malaysia. Yes, the ge4 here is the ge4 in yi1 ge4 ren2(¤@­Ó¤H). Edited: 10 Dec 2012, 1:37 a.m. Re: Default angle mode - Walter B - 12-10-2012 (For our unilingual readers: Thanks!) d:-) Re: Chinese calculator - Walter B - 12-10-2012 Maybe this calculator needs some explanation, especially the nine blue keys: They correspond to different factors of ten - the bottom right means shi2 = 10, the next to the left (!) is bai3 = 100, the next is qian1 = 1000, then go one row up (!) and find wan4 = 10000. Now the mechanics starts: the next key is shi2 wan4 = 10 x 10000, then bai3 wan4 = 100 x 10000, then qian1 wan4 = 1000 x 10000. For 10000^2, there is another character: yi4 = 10^8. Then the mechanics repeats: shi2 yi4 = 10 x 10^8, and would continue with bai3 yi4 = 100 x 10^8, qian1 yi4 = 1000 x 10^8, and wan4 yi4 = 10000 x 10^8. That shall do for all common man's problems ;-) d:-) Re: Chinese calculator - Kiyoshi Akima - 12-10-2012 Shouldn't the digit separators appear every four digits instead of every three? Re: Chinese calculator - Walter B - 12-10-2012 I think so, too (compare p. 39 of the WP 34S manual). I'm neither an owner nor a designer of that Chinese calculator, however. d:-)