Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Printable Version +- HP Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum) +-- Forum: HP Museum Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-1.html) +--- Forum: Old HP Forum Archives (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-2.html) +--- Thread: Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) (/thread-201059.html) |
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-13-2011 After discussing back and forth, it all boils down to whether (1) we keep the present layout but with changed EXIT and x<>y keys as shown in the picture below or (2) we turn to a layout as presented here (changed keys are marked):
MATRIX shall contain the new matrix commands, and L.R. all commands related to 2D data (curve fit modes, COV, etc.). Your votes please :-)
Walter
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Cristian Arezzini - 10-13-2011 I think I'd vote for 2. But is that layout fixed? I guess if it is we won't get same-shift "window change" keys...
Cristian
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-13-2011 +1 for this new layout, looks really good! :-)
What two pictures Walter? only one in this thread... ? - Gene Wright - 10-13-2011 ?
Re: What two pictures Walter? only one in this thread... ? - fhub - 10-13-2011 Option (1) is the current layout (as in the release version) with only the 2 keys x<>y and EXIT changed as in the posted picture (which is option (2)).
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Eric Rechlin - 10-13-2011 Rather than moving 4 keys around, why not just put MATRIX on [3] and pi on [EEX] and leave the [*] and [DownArrow] alone? Though if there is a good reason for moving X.FCN and STATUS I'm sure I could be convinced otherwise...
Eric
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Howard Owen - 10-13-2011 I only see one layout here. It looks to me like option 2. If you have an option 1 mentioned in some other thread, could you please provide a link, or else post a picture here? If option 1 doesn't change anything other than the unshifted key functions or the H shifted plane, then I vote for that. These changes aren't significant enough to justify the pain of replacing the whole base decal, in my opinion.
Thanks for asking. :)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - M. Joury - 10-13-2011 My thoughts exactly. What is the logic of moving X.FCN and Status? Cheers,
-Marwan
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Kerem Kapkin (Silicon Valley, CA) - 10-13-2011 I would vote for option (2) two which adds the valuable Matrix functions on the keyboard, and Pi seems to be in a better place in addition to other changes. Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-13-2011 I've been meaning to ask this question, what does ./, do that it deserves to be on the keyboard? Doesn't ON-. do the same thing? Isn't it on the MODE catalog? Isn't it a set once only thing? I say do option 1 and make MATRIX the h-shifted function on the decimal key. However, I like having that 123456 block of keys be for catalogues.
I'm not sure I "get" most of the other changes on option 2 (but that's nothing new :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - M. Joury - 10-13-2011 Good point on ./,. That would be a perfect place for PI. Then place MATRIX where PI is currently.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Eric Rechlin - 10-13-2011 I agree. Something that you only need to set once should not be on a scarce key label on the keyboard.
Eric
Re: What two pictures Walter? only one in this thread... ? - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Exactly. Thanks, Franz :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Some reasoning: Starting point: MATRIX just looks right at *. STATUS is moved next to TEST for obvious reasons. Then X.FCN goes to 3 next to P.FCN, driving PI to EEX. Thus CLP - which became pretty "dangerous" since it deletes all programs - is no longer on the keyboard :-) (CLP was meant to clear just the current program when placed there as discussed here earlier.)
./, has a second use in alpha mode calling a catalogue of punctuation marks :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Please see above or read message #1 again.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Please see my post above. Thanks :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Morten Nygaard Åsnes - 10-14-2011 Option 2
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Gerson W. Barbosa - 10-14-2011 2
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 I vote for option 0: leave everything as it is. The proposed changes are far to insignificant in my opinion to warrant all the hassle.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - John Abbott (S. Africa) - 10-14-2011 I vote for #2. If Eric can provide a "keyboard patch kit" as suggested, then this makes the change easier to manage. Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-14-2011 Option 0 is essentially option 1 with just replacing the rarely used xtoa/atox with the more useful (and brand new) y<> and z<> commands and swapping OFF and SHOW. You can certainly live with your old overlay then.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-14-2011 There seem to be some votes for Walter's new layout. If we go this route we should go a little further:
Should look like this: Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 5:06 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:I don't like this splitting of "!" and "C P(y x)" to different keys at all - these 3 functions belong together and should stay as they are currenty.
Dropping Phi and its inverse is ok, it's really not used so often.
Franz
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 My old overlay is really not my concern: I will just stick to the firmware version that supports it. But from my perspective no change in the overlay is necessary at all, the gain seems too minor to me, as that I would want to render prior overlays partly obsolete. I'd rather change only inside the catalogs, but not the interface.
Again, this is only my very, very limited "curious user" perspective which should not at all influence the poll of more professional users who really need a calculator for their productive work. BTW how many of these are here amongst WP-34s users?
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Paul Dale - 10-14-2011 Quote: You'll miss out on bug fixes if so & I'm sure there are plenty of bugs lurking still :-(
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 Even if that were the case, I could easily live with that. I'm not working but only playing with the WP34s. It's a wonderful toy, though! :)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-14-2011
Quote:The 15C has them on 0 and +, so a bit more apart, and no-one complains. In my design they are side by side. Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:Well, then which 'partner' would you like to give this "[g]!"? IOW what you put on the [f]-part of this key? Otherwise the "!" would be quite 'lonesome' ... ;-) Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - svisvanatha - 10-14-2011 My Vote is for Option 2. I did like the idea of PI on the [3] though!
Can we also get a white 'reminder' label above EEX for LastX. There is space ;)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Gene Wright - 10-14-2011 Speak for yourself about the normal distribution and inverse. I use it quite a bit! :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:There is even more space over the keys left and right of EEX, so why not even write the following 'reminder': "do not forget: LastX = RCL L" ;-) Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:Well, does not everybody here only speak for himself? ;-)
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 7:58 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 I prefer the layout shown in the picture (that's option 2, if I get it right). Not only because it leaves the normal distribution on the keyboard - an essential function not only in mathematics and statistics but also for everyday use in the social sciences. The arrangement of the menus on the six digit keys is nice as well. But there still is room for improvement. ;-) I really like the idea of the two new functions Y<> and Z<>. But if there is sufficient RAM and even keyboard space for these two, why has as dedicated LastX been rejected for the same reasons (no RAM, valuable keyboard space wasted)? I already mentioned that the f-shifted exponential functions and the g-shifted logs feel strange to me, maybe even "wrong". The reason for this may be the fact that all earlier HP calculators with different shift keys for these functions did it exactly the other way round: Take a look at classics like the HP-25, the 65, the 67 or the 34C - they all use f ln and g ex as well as f log and g 10x. Maybe this is more intuitive since - just like sqrt and x2 - the f-shifted function usually returns a result smaller than the input while g-shift returns a larger one. I think we should do it this way as well and swap f and g here. Walter, what do you think? As others already suggested, Pi should better go to h [ . ] while the decimal marker can be set using the respective command. Which usually is only done once by the user anyway, or even by the SETEUR etc. commands. Also, SHOW is a command that should be accessible as conveniently as possible. There is a reason why it has an exposed position on most HPs. So a h prefix is the obvious choice. Suggestion for a useful and consistent layout:
h [ENTER] = SHOW This would also free g [EXIT] for LastX, maybe only as a shortcut for RCL L so that virtually no RAM is required.
What do you think? Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 8:27 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 If suggestions are still welcome: put ALL, FIX, SCI and ENG in an h-shifted catalog on the D-key and thus free up three h-shifted locations.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 I see I am not the only one who prefers a dedicated LastX key. ;-) Please see my other message in this thread with a suggestion that I think is useful and consistent. What do you two think about that? Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 8:14 a.m.
[WP 34S] Time to branch? (was New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-14-2011 Quote:
Time to investigate branching. I would suggest branching instead of tagging, since it implies we can still propagate bugfixes. Options:
Or we could also do both. But I would only volunteer to maintain one of them :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-14-2011 If true, then use the following wording: "I don't use it so often" Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-14-2011 But that key is still the "." key. So even if we make MATRIX (or something else) the h-shifted function it is still no less logical place for the punctuation alpha-catalogue.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:Well, I think I'm old enough to choose my wording myself. ;-) Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:I guess you did misunderstand my posting, Dieter. In fact I don't need this LastX at all, in the meantime I've really got used to RCL L. :-)
Franz
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 Quote:... and old enough to suffer from the so caused misunderstandings ... ;-) Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 So do I. I consider these two functions absolutely essential in many different sciences. At least more essential than the || function for the EE department. ;-) I sometimes have the impression that "science" here is usually considered something that is generally done not more than 3 meters (or 10 feet) away from a workbench. But there's more science out there. ;-) In finance, economics, econometrics, statistics and many, if not most other social sciences (sic!) the normal distribution (and others) is at least as essential as P<>R in engineering. Please don't let us forget this. Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 9:01 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Jeff O. - 10-14-2011 Can someone remind me of the need to swap OFF and SHOW? Is it just a preference to press h-EXIT to turn the calculator off instead of g-EXIT? Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 9:29 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:Yes, it's just a preference of one (or very few) user, but with the difference that THIS preference seems to be made whereas many others are not. Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Cristian Arezzini - 10-14-2011 I seem to recall that it's a preference of *many* users - people eventually got used to the way it is, but the "other" way is perceived as more intuitive, and I agree. Oh, and this change, unlike others, comes at zero cost, as they are already going to change the layout anyway.
Cristian
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - fhub - 10-14-2011 Quote:And switching the calculator OFF is indeed a *very* useful and *often used* feature - I am indeed using this OFF many times during my calculations! ;-) Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Paul Dale - 10-14-2011 Quote: The keyboard space these occupy wasn't well utilised (ATOX and XTOA under different names) and we'd passed around many suggestions for existing commands to put there, none of which fitted in well. These are the best we came up with without leaving the slots empty.
The nett result is the x<>y command doesn't display as nicely as before, we have saved a few bytes, the two difficult to fill keyboard slots are occupied consistently and we've gained some potentially useful commands. I think this is a worthwhile exchange and others seem to agree.
Re: [WP 34S] Time to branch? (was New keyboard layout (poll) - Paul Dale - 10-14-2011 If (and it is by no means certain) we do a major change to the keyboard, there will be subversion branches involved. We've not decided what form they will take, first we need to decide if a branch is necessary. For option 1, it isn't.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - svisvanatha - 10-14-2011 The reminder label was actually Pauli's suggestion a few days ago ;)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-14-2011 I tend to turn my calculator on and off a lot so I would like it to be the h-shift function. However, I can see why people who use SHOW a lot would find this a downgrade. On the WP-34s, to be an "h-shift" function is coveted due to the proximity of the h key to the edge of the calculator.
Overall I find the postilion of the shift keys annoying, but I think that is just because I never used anything prior to the HP15C. After that the shift keys were always a "left-thumb" keys. It was the main reason for starting the WP-32sII modifications (which, at this rate, will be done in 2015).
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dominic Richens - 10-14-2011 Quote: Pretty damn good for a compromise :-) I prefer to think of it as a "negotiated design".
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 In other words, my proposal would look like this:
If [ ./, ] has to be saved, simply leave it on h [ . ] and move Pi to h [0]. PSE may go to a catalog since it is used for programming only. Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 11:52 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Egan Ford - 10-14-2011 Quote:I do as well. RCL L works, and I am not suggesting removing it. But if WP, et al really want to creating something that would be broadly accepted by RPN users then LASTx should be present. If you create something that meets the needs of a small market, then only a small market will use it.
I guess the question is, if HP were to build the 34S, would they do it without LASTx? Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 11:38 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Eric Rechlin - 10-14-2011 Think about the 50g. SWAP (or X<>Y or whatever your preferred nomenclature) is one of the most important keys in RPN, yet it isn't labeled on the 50g at all. You just have to know that it is on the right arrow key!
Eric
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 Quote: That's RPL - and therefore doesn't count in the world of pure RPN. ;-)
Dieter
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Egan Ford - 10-14-2011 50g is RPL. 50g also had to make compromises to support ALG. For a pure RPN calculator, why compromise on LASTx? If the audience for the 34S is only this community, then apparently most do not want LASTx. So don't have it. But if you all really want to push this to a larger audience, then think about what the average RPN user would expect.
Lastly, what if WP, et al had put LASTx on the keyboard, and you put it on the overlay, and 100s of overlays have shipped. Do you think we would be having this discussion? Dumping LASTx to save a label space? Probably not. Because there are lower priority functions such as || that would be considered first.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 Thank you for the explanation re. X<> and Z<>. But... Quote:I do not see a reason for a sad smiley here. In such a project where the user community is heavily involved, the best possible result is something that most users may agree to. This usually is called a compromise. :-) Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 12:09 p.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 Please take a look at my suggestion in the message below. Now imagine LSTX on h [0]. A truly classic solution, just as Pi on h [ . ] ;-) It may actually do a simple RCL L but it is easier to type (both keys on the edge of the keyboard) and more intuitive for most RPN users out there.
Dieter Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 12:18 p.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Alexander Oestert - 10-14-2011 Why "for programming ONLY"? Programming is one of the main reasons I use the WP34s - and fast (and dirty) programming that is. As PSE is a very important function for this kind of programs to have for me, I'm absolutely happy with having it well in reach on the keyboard.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Mike Mancini - 10-14-2011 Hi all, long time lurker, first time poster and recent WP 34s user.
I'd strongly recommend rethinking the colors selected, especially for the f and h labels. They don't appear to provide nearly enough contrast for a anyone with moderate to severe dichromacy (e.g. red-green or blue-yellow). Going darker with the f key (to more of an burnt orange) and lighter with the h key (to more of a mint) would be one fix. Granted, I'm going off the picture and not the overlay and things change on paper vs. screen, but I think it's important to bring up the accessibility concerns now since there's talk of changing the layout.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 Quote:Because PSE does not make much sense in Run mode, does it? It's useful only (in the sense of "exclusively") in Program mode. But look, in the picture PSE still is there. ;-) The layout even has an unassigned position at g EXIT. So at least three out of four possible commands (Pi, LastX, PSE and . / ,) can be realized.
Dieter
So, if you stay with version 1... the MATRIX commands... - Gene Wright - 10-14-2011 are only in X.FCN ?
Re: So, if you stay with version 1... the MATRIX commands... - Walter B - 10-14-2011 No, Sir. They are distributed to X.FCN, P.FCN, and TEST. You can check this most easily employing the emulator 8-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Please check the colors on the overlay. It's significantly less brilliant than the emulator skin. If the problem persists, please return. TIA
Walter
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Please also note PSE has a second use as indicator where to find Greek PSI in alpha mode.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Quote:OK, if I'd do this we'll gain three empty h-shifted locations. So what do you want to put there (a) fitting in that environment (b) better than the removed functions do? If you suggest something, please do it completely instead of only half ;-) the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Gene Wright - 10-14-2011 Ah, I had found M-DET and M-INV in X.FCN, but I guess my concern is that they are in one or three :-) menus, rather than in a MATRIX menu itself. They are also out of the internal menu, it appears. Hmm... think I'm leaning for option 2. Another thought... although it would not be needed for stack exchange operations, T<> _ _ would be a useful function to put into the X.FCN catalog. T exchange with X, Y or Z can be effected by doing the reverse exchange, but T exchange with a data memory cannot.
How about that as an addition to the X.FCN catalog? T<> ?
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Dieter, Thanks for supplying a complete proposal :-) But take care: you can put more letters in that bitmap than you can read on the real calculator. No way putting CONST on one of those small keys IMHO. So PI is - again IMHO - a far better inhabitant there. Continue trying ;-)
Walter
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Walter B - 10-14-2011 Quote:That can be done easily :-) though I doubt this function will see much use (z<> and even y<> as well). YMMV
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 5:19 p.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-14-2011 Besides FS? (grouped with SF and CF on DOWN), ln Gamma comes into my mind.
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-14-2011 It's in P.FCN. :-)
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Gene Wright - 10-14-2011 Rats!
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-14-2011 Well, the proposed layout shows just some humble improvements of your option 2 of course. ;-) What do you think about it? I feel the swapped positions of the logarithmic and exponential functions make some sense. For me, it looks much more ..."natural" and intuitive this way. Concerning the number of letters in key labels: if six letters like MATRIX fit on a key in a row that is five keys wide, probably five letters like CONST will fit as well in a row that's six keys wide. And if everything else fails it can also be done with four or even three letters: CONS or CNST resp. CON or CST. Leaving PSE on the keyboard is no problem as well. Here's another option for the last row:
It even includes another function whose name shall not be mentioned here. ;-) Dieter
Edited: 14 Oct 2011, 5:47 p.m.
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Paul Dale - 10-14-2011 Quote: Something that hasn't been mentioned about the MATRIX catalogue. All the matrix commands start M-, so navigating this catalogue will require you to enter these two before the first possible distinguishing character. i.e. a standalone MATRIX catalogue will be more difficult to navigate to commands in than it currently is.
Quote: :-) Way ahead here. I can add A<> B<> C<> and D<> for forty more bytes. I think we at the point of diminishing returns by then so I didn't bother. From much of the discussions here, it seems most people are stuck on the four level stack.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Eddie W. Shore - 10-15-2011 Quote:
Eddie
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Walter B - 10-15-2011
Quote:As expected, it takes a conservative audience a long time to get accustomed to innovations ;-/ But I'm happy (and content) we did this step towards eight stack levels. Now let time go by ... :-)
Edited: 15 Oct 2011, 2:30 a.m.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-15-2011
Quote:Where <20% increase may be tolerable, 25% may be just too much. That's the difference between "probably" and "sure" ;-) It will not fit. And BTW, I don't see any relation of CONST to EEX. Regarding PSE, I prefer it remaining on 0 for reasons stated in the manual.
Walter
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Walter B - 10-15-2011
Quote:;-) What's the opposite of euphemism? Quote:If you can't beat an idea try exaggerating it ;-) Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-15-2011 Do we have the chance of a generic register exchange and/or register move command? It would need some tuning in the input logic to input two addresses. To squeeze it into a single op-code is another treat. Maybe not worth the hassle...
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Paul Dale - 10-15-2011 It cannott be squeezed into a single opcode. The input logic would be a problem. Especially given the zero free bytes. There are a whole suite of double register commands that could be useful. Arithmetic STO, conditional tests .... Sadly, no space in the 34S for these.
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - fhub - 10-15-2011 Quote:And just because of this the STOS/RCLS A would have been quite useful commands. I really don't understand why you've removed them again and again, when OTOH you've put in lots of other stack commands (like all those new swaps). :-( Franz
Edited: 15 Oct 2011, 5:31 a.m.
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-15-2011 At the moment they would not fit. I have to find some more flash space before I can start with my next idea, a return stack only limited by memory. :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Walter B - 10-15-2011 At the bottom line so far, it's nine in favour of option 2, zero for option 1, one for an unchanged layout. Votes of ourselves are not counted. Meanwhile, however, two new stack commands were placed below of x<>y, so there is a layout change anyway now.
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Paul Dale - 10-15-2011 Which we've not yet agreed to :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Cristian Arezzini - 10-16-2011 Quote: If you mean that your preferences don't count, I can't see why. If anything, I think your opinions would be more qualified and "educated", given your involvement, than those of regular users...
Cristian
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Paul Dale - 10-16-2011 We had a split decision on these changes. Our opinion still count of course :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (poll) - Dieter - 10-16-2011 Walter -
you mentioned two reasons why CONST should remain on [ENTER] and Pi on [EEX]. I would like to convice you that there are other, IMHO even better reasons for the solution I suggested.
Walter, you did not comment on the swapped log/exp functions. So I assume you like it just as I do. I hope I also could give some good reasons for the other changes I suggested.
Dieter
Re: the MATRIX commands... and a new function T<> ? - Dieter - 10-16-2011 Quote:That's my impression either. But it's very useful for programming. Just like any other advanced stack manipulation command. So the f- and g-shifted [X<>Y] key is free for two other commands that are more useful for manual calculations. I am sure we will find some. ;-) Please don't let us get trapped by the idea that the primary target is a layout that looks nice, and therefore Y<> and Z<> should get assigned to the X<>Y key since all these go so well with each other and all these exchange functions on the same key look so nice. We are talking about a tool here, and it should support the user with a well balanced set of keyboard functions. The question whether a function should be accessible on the keyboard or by browsing a menu should not be answered by design aspects but by usefulness instead.
Dieter
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-16-2011 The sample size is very small compared to the population size. The latter should best be known to Eric who can tell to how many different people he has sold overlays. We might assume that only people which are interested in an updated layout post here. "Never believe in a statistic which you haven't forged yourself!".
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Eric Rechlin - 10-16-2011 I've sold about 230 of them, and the average person bought 2 of them, so there are probably around 110-120 people in the population.
Eric
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-16-2011 Thanks for the numbers. Now how to weigh their silent votes?
Don't worry, Marcus...they all agree with me - Gene Wright - 10-16-2011 ;-) lol
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Egan Ford - 10-16-2011 Quote:That's easy. No change. Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Walter B - 10-16-2011 Too late. That train is gone ;-)
And BTW, who doesn't vote must not complain about the results.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Egan Ford - 10-16-2011 Quote:Must not? Given the volume of discussion, objections, and complaints in this thread regarding the current proposals, I surmise that your must not directive will be undoubtedly ignored. I predict that most that didn't vote will keep their current layout and firmware, or perhaps upgrade to the latest firmware that supports the old layout. And less than half will actually get a new 30b for a new overlay or get patches from Eric.
IMHO, there are a lot of great suggestions, even from the 34S development team, that are getting ignored. Expect objections, suggestions, criticisms, and yes complaints.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Walter B - 10-16-2011 That was a translation of a German saying "Wer nicht zur Wahl geht, darf sich hinterher nicht über das Ergebnis beschweren." Nevertheless, I know people will complain always for any reason whatsoever. But the receiver of such complaints may think (and say): "Well, folks, you didn't vote, so ..."
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Jeff O. - 10-16-2011 Okay, I vote for no change beyond the already implemented y<> and z<> commands on the x<>y key.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Ángel Martin - 10-17-2011 I'm sure I'm not the best qualified to comment on German-to-English translations, but in my experience DÜRFEN and MÜSSEN are widely misused by non-native speakers when moving between both languanges. For me it works better to associate DÜRFEN to "being allowed to", and MÜSSEN to "can" - in contexts like the one used here. Not only it's more polite, but also it doesn't sound so harsh and regimented, I mean saying you "musn't" do something has lots of connotations beyond not being allowed to.
Cheers, Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Gene Wright - 10-17-2011 My reason for voting for #2 was to put the MATRIX catalog on the keyboard.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-17-2011 This looks nicer than it actually is. If you put all matrix command in one catalog, tests and all, it's harder to find a function therein. All commands start with M- (or M., we are in a discussion about the nomenclature). To navigate, say to M-DET, you have to press 7 (for M), f, ., and finally D, to get there. This is true for the current arrangement, too, but the number of matrix commands in each catalog is smaller because they are distributed over TEST, X.FCN and P.FCN.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Walter B - 10-17-2011 It's just a matter of proper naming :-)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - fhub - 10-17-2011 Quote:Or of having other ideas, like the following: ;-)
What if you would fill the input/keyboard buffer automatically with the 2 codes for "M" and "-" (or "." if it's changed again) when the user calls the MATRIX catalog?
Franz
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Eric Rechlin - 10-17-2011 What if you change the search algorithm? In other words, if you press a letter, but no command starts with that letter, instead jump to the first command with that letter at the earliest position in its name.
Eric
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-17-2011 I was thinking about this but we have no way of telling the user that we have already done part of the navigation for him. This seems a bit too surprising. We cannot properly underline the characters already selected and inverting them is too ugly. (There are more problems to solve here which are of pure technical nature but very hard to overcome: The timeout resetting the pointer to the beginning occurs while the processor is off and is only detected when the next key is pressed. This makes it impossible to reset the navigation cursor at the right time.)
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-17-2011 What if you press the next character then? Jump to the next command or to the next better match?
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Eric Rechlin - 10-17-2011 You could do it like the 50g and have a timeout. If the next character is typed soon (1-2 seconds or so) after the last one, it will use that. Otherwise, treat the next character as starting over.
Eric
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 10-17-2011 That's already there but what will happen upon a timeout? Back to square one or to square three? As long as I can't reliably mark the already selected characters I'll refrain from such an automatism.
It we had a value stored with each command to indicate the first character position to search for we might have a chance to implement such behavior consistently and globally for all catalogs, but I doubt we find the space in our tables. Pauli? Walter?
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Walter B - 10-17-2011 KISS. As written above already. But I'm abroad right now.
Re: [WP 34S] New keyboard layout (intermediate poll results) - Paul Dale - 10-17-2011 Underline is definitely out. So is inverse. We've tired both and the dot matrix portion of the screen isn't up to it. Pre-loading the M- like we do for the complex catalogue would be possible but I doubt we've got enough code space left for this.
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