30B - On The Way - from USA ! - Printable Version +- HP Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum) +-- Forum: HP Museum Forums (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-1.html) +--- Forum: Old HP Forum Archives (https://archived.hpcalc.org/museumforum/forum-2.html) +--- Thread: 30B - On The Way - from USA ! (/thread-168696.html) |
30B - On The Way - from USA ! - John Stark - 06-17-2010 To All: 30B finally on HP domestic shopping site: http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/calculator/HP/1/storefronts/NW238AA%2523ABA?jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN Ordered the beastie today and will have a review after receipt and familiarization. As a Classic (45 and 80 used daily) and 12-C fan (when the 80 is "too little gun") , this will be an interesting experience.
Re: 30B - On The Way - from USA ! - Marcus von Cube, Germany - 06-17-2010 I'm still waiting for mine from Dynatech.de. I sent an inquiry and got the response that HP wasn't shipping yet. ...
Still waiting...
Re: 30B - On The Way - from USA ! - John Stark - 06-17-2010 Dear Marcus: Uh-oh..... Thought they were rolling this machine out in Europe first. Will keep everyone posted on the buying experience as it unfolds. HP sure is not what is when the 45,55,and 65 ruled the roost. Cheers. John
30B - Showed up Sharp! - John Stark - 06-18-2010 To All: My 30B showed up today - sharp one day after ordering. Initial impressions:
- Nice blister packaging - "Cut Here" line to remove; no Kung-Fu - Case shape similar to "Casio" -derived SmartCalc 300S - would prefer closer to HP-35S - Unusually light weight. Put some lead or depeleted plutonium in the hollow spaces to give it some heft :)
- Scientific functions on shifted Blue keys; i believe they were originally buried in a menu somewhere. - Crappy sleeve/pocket case - typical Ch****e stuff.
Will post detailed functional evaluation later. Marcus - I hope you get yours quickly.
John Stark
Correction-VERTICAL format - John Stark - 06-18-2010 To all: Sorry 'bout describing HP.30B as "nice HORIZONTAL format unit", I ment nice "VERTICAL" format calculator layout.
John
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp! - Martin Pinckney - 06-19-2010 Quote:Better stick with lead; however, if you really need the extra density, use depleted uranium.{:-) Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp! - Katie Wasserman - 06-20-2010 John, Did you get a keypad "programming" overlay in the package? Per the 20b/30b User's Guide, it's supposed to be included and shows the position of the programming functions that are accessed by pressing and holding SHIFT along with one of the keys marked on the overlay.
-Katie
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - John Stark - 06-20-2010 Dear Katie: Sure did. Slipped in amongst the HP promotional flyers and reply card. I have no use for it. If it can't be done with keystrokes, out comes Excel,SPSS,Systat and the like on the ol' Lap-top. If you need one, I will be happy to send mine to you. John Stark
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Don Shepherd - 06-20-2010 John, but suppose there is a keystroke that is in a menu somewhere on the 30b, and you need to use it frequently so you'd like to assign it to a key (or a shift key or, even better, a shift hold key). You can do it with a simple program. See Gene's examples in the learning modules at the HP site.
Don
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Don Shepherd - 06-20-2010 John, here is Gene's learning module about assigning functions in menus to a key. He has two examples here. It's really pretty cool. Edited: 20 June 2010, 11:08 a.m.
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Sancerre (Phoenix) - 06-20-2010 John, I didn't get an overlay (and I just purchased it a couple of weeks ago via hp.com). Can I take you up on your offer of sending the overlay? If so, you can contact me at sancerre @ gmail . com (no spaces).
--Sancerre
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Katie Wasserman - 06-20-2010 John, I'm not a fan of keyboard overlays either, but thank you for the offer. Given the "Black S" (Black Scholes) printing above the "Bond" key I think it would have been ok if HP printed all the programming-related SHIFT-HOLD functions as well instead of providing them on a template. I suppose that this might make the calculator more intimidating to financial users, but no more so than the HP-12C is. Anyway, it's not hard to memorize the key locations and avoid the overlay.
-Katie
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - John Stark - 06-20-2010 Katie: Assume you don not want the overlay; if that is the case then Sancerre gets it. John
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Tim Wessman - 06-20-2010 They usually are in the back cover of the QSG. Did you flip through all of the pages there?
TW
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - Katie Wasserman - 06-20-2010 John, Thanks again, but please send it to Sancerre.
-Katie
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp!-Programming Overlay - John Stark - 06-21-2010 Dear Sancerre: Will be glad to forward the overlay. Please send address info to: jtstark@gmail <<<dot>>>com Have a fine day.
John
Don't quite understand this... - Gene Wright - 06-21-2010 I must admit I can't quite understand the comment: "I have no use for it. If it can't be done with keystrokes, out comes Excel..."
However, by writing an INCREDIBLY short / easy program ONE TIME, you can compute the coefficient of variation in a total of 2 keystrokes. So, at least 14-15 keystrokes turned into 2 by spending 5-10 minutes writing a program. Sure, if you only compute that one time, then why bother? But if there are any things you do that you might need to do repeatedly, then the time spent is very well rewarded. Using functions in menus are much more user-friendly when placed into VERY short programs and assigned to keys. The examples in the learning modules show how to assign the inverse trig functions to the shift-hold trig key positions. MUCH easier and faster than going through the menus. I think that was Don's point. You can certainly access those through keystrokes, but why not consider entering a few short programs one time to reduce your keystroke count by a large number?
And, yes, we're all different, I know.
Testy..testy - John Stark - 06-21-2010 Now I remember why I switched majors from Engineering to Finance. Engineers ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT. AND SAY IT IN CAPS. Anyway, will investigate doing repetitive things on the 30B via short "keystroke" programs.
John
Re: Testy..testy - db (martinez, ca.) - 06-21-2010 John; Not sure you knew it but Gene is a bean counter, albeit one of the few that writes his own programs (not to mention- a textbook on bean analysis).
Re: Testy..testy - Tim Wessman - 06-21-2010 That was actually the original intent of the 30b "programming". In fact, it was called "macros" for a long time. The idea was you could pull frequently used things out of menus, and write a short little equations to use with the solver. However, those nasty beta testers kept asking and complaining for more and more. . . pretty soon you had loops, tests, subroutines and more just to shut them up! ;-)
TW
Re: 30B - Showed up Sharp! - Norman Dziedzic - 06-21-2010 Here is something with a little less component of unobtainium:
http://www.maximum-velocity.com/tungstenputty.htm
Re: Testy..testy - Muddled Feature Set - John Stark - 06-21-2010 Dear Tim: Very interesting. Good example of a "muddled" feature set, terminology, and message to the end-user. "Programmable" scares off some folks, and raises the expectations of others. "Keystroke Shortcuts", or "Macros" implies convenience and end user customization. The latter recalls the user-defined keys on the Classic card-programmables and the 48-50 series. Indeed I have used the U/D keys on 48-series to quickly access functions buried in the menu system, although I am by no means a "programmer". Appreciate everyone's comments - hope HP is listening. John
Re: Testy..testy - Gene Wright - 06-21-2010 Actually, I didn't feel I was being all that testy. I just didn't understand the blanket rejection of anything "non-keyboard". If you really don't want to be efficient (and finance people usually do), then by all means, pull out a laptop, wake it from sleep, start Excel, and do something you could have already loaded into the HP 30b. I did not even mention the HP SOLVE feature on the HP 30b. Since you are in finance, you might have a need to solve loan problems where the first period does not have exactly 30 days in it. By entering the program found in this learning module once, you will always have the ability to run the program and solve for all the TVM variables when there are an odd number of days in the first period. Useful? Perhaps. Generalized odd-days loan solver example for the HP 30b And, yes, I have enough of my undergraduate computer science degree to act somewhat like an engineer, but as a former college professor, I have always tried to encourage people to choose wisely and not dismiss things out of hand.
Testy? Not yet.
Re: Testy..testy - Muddled Feature Set - Tim Wessman - 06-21-2010 We do. Whether we can do anything about it is another question entirely. :-D TW
P.S. - Does this forum support a signature of any kind? It would be very nice to have if not. . .
Re: Muddled Feature Set - Martin Pinckney - 06-21-2010 Quote:By "We", you mean Cyrille and yourself? Quote:Then who can? Re: Testy..testy - Martin Pinckney - 06-21-2010 Quote:JOHN, I THINK YOU MUST BE WRONG, BECAUSE I'M NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL. Re: Testy..testy - Bart (UK) - 06-22-2010
Quote:Again, this makes me concerned about the processes and procedures at HP. First determine the feature set Then freeze the baseline Minimize product feature creep - beta testers are testers, not product developers Keep the valuable feature requests from your beta testers as a wish list for a product upgrade, people are more willing to buy an upgrade if the original worked properly in the first place. 40 years ago one could get away with loose development methods because markup margins were high, but in today's cut-throat, short-time-to-market environment, stricter processes and procedures are needed and have to be followed in order to survive. AND THIS IS MY OPINION (which is always right, of course ;-) ) Re: Testy..testy - David Hayden - 06-22-2010 Quote:But if the beta testers are screaming for something, it's a very safe bet that the end-users will also. Basically, it means that the original feature set wasn't right. If the 30b just had macros and no loops or other flow-of-control instructions, we would be roasting HP for making such an obvious mistake.
Dave
Re: Testy..testy - Tim Wessman - 06-22-2010 Just so you feel a bit better Bart, all the major features were determined before the full beta group was officially organized. I was being a bit sarcastic when I was talking about them "whining and complaining" causing things to be added. In initial product feedback with a few individuals is where the requests for that showed up. Us being calculator nuts, we tend to agree with stuff like that. :-) Mostly, the beta testers did a fantastic job with the polishing - especially to get the 30b the point that everyone was happy with the program editing. Originally, it had a few quirks due to the underlying system and everyone was much happier after the polishing. What you describe fits very well using a traditional waterfall development method. However, your description of a 1) cut-throat 2) short-time-to-market situation describes a perfect example of where one would choose to use a more agile method IMO. TW
Edited: 22 June 2010, 10:25 a.m.
Re: Testy..testy - Bart (UK) - 06-22-2010 Either the original feature set wasn't thought out properly, otherwise, TOUGH - there's too much risk of faults like those on the 35s slipping through due to last miniute changes. Re: Testy..testy - John Stark - 06-22-2010 dear martin: neither am i. perhaps you are the exception to the observed anecdotal rule. anyway - what an INTERESTING!!!! :) thread on the 30B; to repeat meyself, I sure hope HP listens to this entire forum and considers it in its development cycle. of course, not being ever involved in a large corporate structure, i do not konw or understand the details of how a new product is developed in today's lean, mean world. keep on posting, everyone ! john PS: My fling with the 30B started when I wanted to supplement an HP.80 in use for some time. I had an older 12.C which started getting flaky. Bought 30B online and began my narrative. This morning, went to Office Despot and got another 12.C. Two batteries and a "programming" plug under the cover. You experts can tell me what that means. Bottom line, emotionally, not logically: The 12.C still has a "soul"; the 30B is "hollow". Both do what I need in terms of simple financial,bond,and statistical work.
Thanks for listening to a "McCoy" in the midst of a forum of "Spocks" :). JTS
Re: Testy..testy - Katie Wasserman - 06-22-2010
Quote: It means that you bought a calculator with "the soul of an old machine". It's got an new ARM-based processor in there that's running an emulator of the original voyager CPU and the code the emulator is running is the original 12C ROM image. So it's both really fast and really old. I have to say that I like the 12C+ (what you bought) better than the 30b as a financial calculator. You can certainly do much more on the 30b, in the way of financial functions, statistics and programming, but for overall usability and looks I like the 12C+ the best.
Re: Testy..testy - Bart (UK) - 06-23-2010
Quote:That's good to know. Quote:Sorry, I didn't pick up on that, having a glum day at the office. Quote:I realise that and did say their input was "valuable". Quote:I feel exactly the opposite, let's agree to dis-agree. I guess I've touched on this point enough times now, so I'll attempt to restrain myself from doing so in future posts. |