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How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Printable Version

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How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

This is the latest HP-35 Red Dot for sale, and it looks very clean and complete. I think the last one for sale fetched $875, and wondered what you thought this one would get. I'm thinking this may get over $1000.

Legal disclaimer: I am not the seller of this item. I do not know the seller of this item and have no interest in its sale.

Red Dot for sale


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) - 07-16-2009

Manual is from a later version...

Being a Red Dot owner I hope that it gets as much as it can! ;-)

Greetings,
Massimo


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

Quote:
Manual is from a later version...

I pulled mine out and looked at it, and I see what you mean. You are very observant! There was another subtle difference that I noticed, and will send you an email to see what you think.

Best regards from a fellow Red Dot owner,

Michael


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael Eckstein - 07-16-2009

Except the manual there are at least three other signs from versions two and higher. S/N is not known, too. If this is a Red Dot, then it's not in its original state.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

Agreed. Massimo and I have confirmed two differences on the calculator. I think I know what the third one is. Very suspicious.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Mark Edmonds - 07-16-2009

Well, I am no 35 expert - I haven't even got one so I can only guess what you might be seeing based on photos I have seen on the museum site.

So, taking a stab in the dark:

1. The hole diameter looks too big
2. The insert red plastic is recessed and not flush.
3. The red dot looks like it could be a red piece of plastic, not the material used for the display area or shining an LED through.
4. White screws inside the case look unusual to me.

Are you thinking that someone has opened up a MK3, drilled a hole in it and stuck a piece of red plastic underneath the hole?!

Mark


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

Mark,

Several Red Dot owners and I have noted a number of anomalies, which make it highly improbable that this is a genuine original Red Dot. We choose not to divulge the specifics of these observations, lest someone go to school on how to build a fake.

Michael

Edited: 16 July 2009, 6:47 p.m.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Mark Edmonds - 07-16-2009

I understand Michael and share your concern. However, I could also argue that by keeping this information private, people wont know what to look for when making sure they are getting the real-deal.

On the balance of things, someone making a fake might stand more chance of getting away with it if the key information for spotting a fake isn't readily available in places like this. Although that same information can help a faker, it would still increase awareness of the problem and hopefully make potential buyers more careful.

It is still a difficult call though...

Mark


Quote:
Mark,

Several Red Dot owners and I have noted a number of anomalies, which make it highly improbable that this is a genuine original Red Dot. We choose not to divulge the specifics of these observations, lest someone go to school on how to build a fake.

Michael





Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Dan W - 07-16-2009

I reluctantly agree. It would be too tempting, and too easy, if someone knew the exact dimensions of the hole, and knew exactly how the red was created (painted, or plastic). I figured out how to remove and replace the metal backing without leaving a trace and I am very reluctant to talk about it because of the potential of mix and matching parts to create what appears to be a working, unrepaired calculator. Am I being ridiculous?


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

Mark,

I think the mere fact that we have raised these red flags are sufficient to alert any auction bidders who might visit this site. In this instance, there were initially 3 bids on this item, and the highest bid was $595, which met the reserve price. I now see that apparently this bid has been retracted, and the next highest bid is only $255, which does not meet the reserve price. Since we are actual owners who can physically examine the item, and there is more than one of us to corroborate our findings, we should have sufficient credibility to make these assertions without having to disclose the specifics. I understand your intellectual curiosity in this matter, however, I feel that I must invoke the Red Dot secrecy act on this one.

Regards,

Michael


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Dan W - 07-16-2009

Comparing the auction photo with the one from the HP museum, the hole looks too big to me, and slightly off-center. [EDIT: I have found some photos on the web, and several look just the same.]

It would really help if someone would post a closeup quality photo of a real red dot version (hint hint). But I am about 90% sure this one is not real.

Edited: 16 July 2009, 9:21 p.m.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-16-2009

I'm more like 99.9% sure it's a fake. There are many other issues, some pretty glaring, but like I said to Mark, I think discretion is the best policy here. I sent a message to the seller asking for additional information/photos to check out other identifiers for a legitimate Red Dot. I didn't alert him of my suspicions, so it will be interesting to see if he/she replies. The seller is clearly not the owner (said it was obtained from an estate sale), so may be totally unaware of these issues.


This is certainly a fake - buyer beware. - Frank Boehm (Germany) - 07-17-2009

There is one sign of it being fake - something that is impossible to falsify, but obvious even with these blurry pictures. The red dot hole looks a bit too large too, but you can't fully trust low res pictures there...

And it's not the white screws, those are not uncommon, as this is simply corrosion from leaked batteries (zinc covered screws + leaking batteries = bad).


Buyer beware - you don't get what you (might) pay for.


I notified ebay about this auction, lets see if they pull it...


Re: This is certainly a fake - buyer beware. - Thomas Radtke - 07-17-2009

Interesting, even the center is vertically out of position (the top image is stolen from this site ;-).


Edited: 17 July 2009, 7:01 a.m.


that's not a hint :) - Frank Boehm (Germany) - 07-17-2009

I'd say the "dot" is not aligned to anything, neither the switch nor the printing (the position of the printed lettering will differ due to manufacturing tolerance) - but I agree that the dot looks too large. Might be due to strange lightning, but since it's a fake anyway, that's probably not important <g>


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Ron G. - 07-17-2009

The last one I saw, got no bids, at $300 opening bid. It may have been faked, as well. I don't know how to tell the difference.


Here is a red dot prototype case with type one keys. - Geoff Quickfall - 07-17-2009

The red dot shown certainly looks rigged to me! In these two shots you can see the position of the hole versus the switch. The inside view certainly tells the picture! The RED DOT for sale certainly looks, if real, like shoddy workmanship on HPs part which I am sure it is not!

Cheers, Geoff

Edited: 17 July 2009, 10:31 p.m.


The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael de Estrada - 07-17-2009

A German bidder has retracted his bid in this auction. His reason:

Falscher Gebotsbetrag eingegeben

I wonder why.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Mike Morrow - 07-18-2009

I got my red-dot HP-35 from its original owner in exchange for a new TI-58, in 1978. (I think that was a good trade, for me.) I didn't know anything was special about red-dots until 25 years later. Unfortunately, the owner had HP correct the firmware errors.

The leather calculator case that is shown is not appropriate for a red-dot. The red-dot case is much simpler. The one shown is like the one for the HP-65. I bought one as an option for my HP-67 in 1977.

The red hole on the auction example is definitely bogus.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-18-2009

Quote:
The leather calculator case that is shown is not appropriate for a red-dot. The red-dot case is much simpler. The one shown is like the one for the HP-65.

Wow. It just keeps getting better. First the manual is not correct, then the calculator has a bunch of bogus issues, and now you point out that even the soft case is wrong. Actually, the case would be wrong for any version of the HP-35 or for any classic other than the HP-65. It's bigger to accommodate the larger HP-65 housing and has a pocket to hold a case of magnetic cards in addition to the pocket for the Quick Reference Guide. The HP-45 and HP-80 soft cases have QR Guide pockets. The HP-35 soft case does not have any little pockets.

I guess in 1978 you got shortchanged in the deal, but now you can laugh all the way to the bank.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Mike Morrow - 07-18-2009

Quote:
Actually, the case would be wrong for any version of the HP-35 or for any classic other than the HP-65. It's bigger to accommodate the larger HP-65 housing and has a pocket to hold a case of magnetic cards in addition to the pocket for the Quick Reference Guide.

I guess in 1978 you got shortchanged in the deal, but now you can laugh all the way to the bank.


I considered it a great trade for me, because the HP-35 held nostalgia value for me even as early as 1978. I couldn't begin to think of buying one as a Ga. Tech sophomore when it came out in 1972.

That incorrect for HP Classic leather soft case is the best case ever made for the HP-41 without card reader. The two front pockets are great for holding several ROM modules, and also several module quick reference guides. I don't think HP ever advertised it for the HP-41...in fact I don't believe it was still available by the time that the HP-67 was discontinued in favor of the HP-41.

But it's definitely not for the auctioned HP-35.


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Dan W - 07-18-2009

You are correct about the case; it is for the HP-65. So clearly the seller has cobbled together a bunch of pieces to create a set. Also the users manual doesn't show a red dot on the cover.

It is also obvious to me that the chrome decorative surround has been touched up. I have done this on a few Classics too. But I would be very hesitant to do that to a red dot.

I am curious about the accessory catalog shown. Was the locking cradle available when the red dot came out?


Re: How much will this Red Dot sell for? - Michael de Estrada - 07-18-2009

Quote:
I am curious about the accessory catalog shown. Was the locking cradle available when the red dot came out?

If you look very closely at the photo, the calculator held in the cradle appears to be a Red Dot. However, the Accessory Order Card included with my Red Dot makes no mention of it. Furtheremore, it has a note that the Battery Holder W/Battery Pack (reserve power pack) will be available in April 1972, and it is not listed as a currently available accessory.

All of this is a moot point, since the calculator itself is clearly a fake.


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Walter B - 07-22-2009

Actually, two bidders have retracted for the same reason. But now enough fools are there :(


Mine is genuine... Not for sale, sorry! ;-) - Gerson W. Barbosa - 07-22-2009

I do have one of these and I have no doubt it is authentic:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-87573559068483_2059_75493.jpg


Re: Mine is genuine... Not for sale, sorry! ;-) - Walter B - 07-22-2009

d:-))

Made in China?


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael de Estrada - 07-22-2009

I think the current high bidder is Italian. There is a little over an hour to go in the auction, and the reserve price has still not been met. I sent a message to the seller requesting the serial number and some additional photos, but he/she did not reply. Since eBay changed their policy regarding identifying the bidders while the auction is still in progress, it is no longer possible to alert them about this, so someone is going to be defrauded. I really don't think eBay cares; they just want to make their commission.

Edited: 22 July 2009, 5:58 p.m.


Re: Mine is genuine... Not for sale, sorry! ;-) - Gerson W. Barbosa - 07-22-2009

Quote:
Made in China?

Made in Brazil (I hope).

http://www.mundial-sa.com.br/por/index.asp


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael Eckstein - 07-22-2009

Sold for $776, hard to believe ...


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Dan W - 07-22-2009

Did everyone here who had reason to believe it was fake report it to ebay? There is a mechanism for this and they will pull an auction if it is reported. Sometimes anyway.

My wife bought a fake Louis Vitton purse some years ago and later went on a crusade to report every such fake bag. She learned all the little details and can spot one very quickly. Believe me, virtually all of them are fake.

Over time she did it enough that they gave her a special phone number to call if she wants, and they will pull an auction she reports 99% of the time within 10 minutes.

Point is that if those of us who are expert report these often enough, I wager ebay will eventually pay attention.

On the other hand, HP is probably not threatening to sue them.


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael de Estrada - 07-22-2009

Dan,

Frank Boehm says he reported this back on July 17. I was not aware of a reporting mechanism, otherwise I would have done so as well. Could you PM me on this? Like you said, this is a different situation, since the claimant is not the manufacturer but the buyer instead.

Michael


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) - 07-23-2009

Quote:
I think the current high bidder is Italian

I didn't spot (as far as this is feasible now) italians on the top bidders; actually I hoped that it went to t***d... for historical reasons :-)

Greetings,

Massimo


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Don Shepherd - 07-23-2009

I notice that the winning bidder has 3 bid retractions in the last 6 months. Not a good sign. He may weasel out of this one too.


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael Eckstein - 07-23-2009

I don't know the winner, but I wonder why -***h and t***d were bidding so high at this item, since I probably correctly guessed their identity, they both well know HP 35 Red Dot and I suppose they were aware of most differences.


There is no "proper" way to report these items. - Frank Boehm (Germany) - 07-23-2009

ebay pretty much insists that all thinkable problems can be categorized into 2 dozens of issues. There is no way to report faked hardware or general fakes - unless you chose the closest option.
I guess the whole customer service system is a. My issue number has been mailed through "charity@ebay.com", my additional complaint was confirmed twice within seconds.
I don't think there is much hope to protect the buyer from being ripped off :(


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Michael de Estrada - 07-23-2009

Massimo,

Although it is no longer possible to positively identify the nationality of a bidder, you can infer it by the language used in items listed in the bid history for the bidder. For example, the bidder I was referring to had mostly bid on items in Italian on the eBay Italy site, such as "Informatica e Palmari > Calcolatrici". Other bidders had primarily bid in German, so there is a high likelihood they are German. This primarily applies to non-English speaking European bidders, since there is no way to differenciate bidders living in countries such as the UK where English is spoken and they also bid on other European eBay sites.

Anyway, hopefully this fraud will eventually be exposed and the perpetrator revealed so as to protect the sanctity of Red Dot.

Regards,
Michael


Re: The whole world now knows it's a fake. - Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) - 07-24-2009

Hello Michael,

sure: if you saw that I must concur with your observations; I quickly scanned the topmost bidders and didn't find such info... my fault.


Quote:
to protect the sanctity of Red Dot

LOL!

Greetings,
Massimo