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Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Eric Smith - 07-07-2007 The following is a copy of a letter I just emailed to the editor of Datafile, the HPCC club journal: It has been reported that an HPCC member has criticized the arrangement whereby Valentin Albillo (#1075) was given a free membership in exchange for the many articles he has written. As a result, that free membership has been eliminated.
Both Valentin and the member making the complaint have contributed
I would like to see more articles from Valentin (and from the member
Eric Smith Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Steve Borowsky - 07-07-2007 Geez, that's pathetic.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Howard Owen - 07-07-2007 Good going, Eric! I hope the HPCC and Valentin can come to terms that will allow his continued contributions to Datafile. There are few authors whose articles I enjoy more. It would be a major loss to the community if this situation were the final state of affairs.
Regards, [OT] Some pertinent explanations [LONG] - Valentin Albillo - 07-07-2007
Hi, Eric:
This leaves me with a bittersweet feeling. On one hand, I really do appreciate your extreme willingness to try and help. On the other hand, I'm saddened by your taking the initiative to try and pay for a subscription for me without first getting in contact with me so that I would tell you the details of the initial arrangement and of the present controversy. This would have saved you from sending the money in the first place, because this is not a matter of money, at all. This being so, I expect that Datafile's Secretary will return you money uncashed, as I won't accept a membership for me at anyone's personal expense no matter how much I'm obligued by your gesture. So, I'll immediately contact Mr. Secretary and Mr. Editor via e-mail, formally asking for the money to be returned to you and to do likewise should other such attempts be made.
This said, and as I very much appreciate the kind and continuous
some people really have taken this arrangement so much at heart that it seems they won't stop at anything to see it undone. Initially they simply anonymously posted frequent public criticism in a most unpolite way each and every time I tried to promote Datafile or post about some new articles published there. It was really unfair to me and certainly attempted to sabotage my well-meant efforts to promote Datafile, but they were anonymous 'trolls' and that was it, nothing for me to do except stand it as well as I could.
Then the offensive scaled up one bit when I was told that some HPCC members
However, I was greatly surprised when one of my latest Datafile promotional posts
Thus we have the strange and unprecedented
This, of course, was the last straw as far as my patience was concerned, so
I was profoundly disappointed to realize that I had no support at all from
How came this arrangement to be in the first place ? Well, it's quite
Seeing this, I decided this kind of contents were not of my interest, and
However, this saddened to me no end, as HPCC was practically all that was left
However, these articles of mine would be precisely the only ones who would
In order for me to be able to see the printed article, it would be utterly
He thought it was a very good idea, which would alleviate a whole lot his
The truth, in a nutshell, is that I was about to end my subscription to
It goes without saying that I could'nt care less for the few sterling pounds
In fact, you've probably noticed the impact: the previous Datafile issues
As for committing to write good-quality articles on a regular basis,
Thus, I fully intend to write the very same 4 articles I would
Well, sorry for the extreme length of this post but I felt that all of you deserved
Thanks and best regards from V.
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations [LONG] - Eric Smith - 07-07-2007 Thanks for the detailed explanation. I would still prefer to pay for a year's HPCC membership for you than to get a refund, even though you've explained that the money is not the issue. However, if you're insistent on not accepting it as a gift, I will of course respect your wishes.
Eric
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations - Walter B - 07-07-2007 Buenas tardes, Valentin, though I know only your side of the story now (audiatur et altera pars!), I must say the result is a real pity. I didn't check the archives for any names, which would be done easily. But what for? Well, I can only hope both sides (whoever is on the other side personally) may settle this matter like adults (by experience, such debates between men tend to end in kindergarten very often). Speaking for hopefully many of the members of this forum, a living Datafile is far better for all of us, the readers, than a tombstone claiming "I was right" (hope my limited English is sufficient to express my feelings). Thanks for your promotional activities, and good luck for the necessary negotiations, best regards,
Walter
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations - Steve Borowsky - 07-07-2007 I know this is really none of my business, and i'm not a significant contributor to this community, but I do consider myself a long-term member of the HP community here; i've probably been registered on this site for over ten years, so I feel justified in trying to express something of how I feel after hearing about this situation. When I posted my first response, I thought afterwards that perhaps I had been too harsh and quick to judgment, and that maybe there were other factors I wasn't seeing. But after reading Valentin's eloquent explanation, sadly I feel my criticism was inadequate. It's not only the behavior of the original HPCC member that I find pathetic and reprehensible, but the resulting actions of the HPCC leadership as well. I'm telling you, if I was walking around with that kind of head I think i'd have to kill myself.
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations [LONG] - Fernando del Rey - 07-07-2007 Hi Valentin! As a long time friend of yours, and recent member of HPCC (per your recommendation), I'm really sorry for the state of affairs that has led to your decision. While understanding and sharing your point of view on this matter, I can only ask you to reconsider your decision for the benefit of the HP calc fan community. Keep in mind that there is always some reason for others to think or act differently from what we would expect. Please be forgiving when judging people's behavior. Not being a contributor myself, nor practically active as an HP calc fan, I have nevertheless enjoyed and really appreciated reading your Datafile articles over the years. I wish to thank you for all those fun and interesting materials, which surely you have dedicated long hard-working hours to produce. If your decision with respect to Datafile if firm, may I suggest that you publish your future articles at the Articles Forum in this MoHP, or even better, why don't you think about gathering enough material for publishing a book. Thanks for all you do for this community. See you soon!
Edited: 7 July 2007, 6:26 p.m.
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations [LONG] - Wayne Brown - 07-07-2007 This whole situation is very distressing. I guess I can see both sides (somewhat), and we are getting only one side of the story here. But it's hard to imagine that there could be any other information that would justify the way Valentin has been treated. If I put as much time and effort as he does into preparing free articles for publication, then the idea that I'd have to pay for the "privilege" of proofreading my own material would be not only ludicrous but offensive. The thing I find most disturbing is the Committee's refusal to support -- or even acknowledge in public -- a good-faith agreement they made. The whole thing is unpleasantly reminiscent of the disrespect shown to Richard Nelson in the last stages of his involvement with PPC.
My first impulse on reading all this was a desire to resign my own HPCC membership immediately, but upon reflection I decided to wait and see what other facts, if any, come to light. However, I can promise that whatever happens will have a significant bearing on my decision at membership renewal time.
Re: [OT] Some pertinent explanations [LONG] - DaveJ - 07-07-2007 Hi Valentin I agree that you should stand your ground on principle alone, and anyone who does not agree and has such spite as what is being displayed, simply does not deserve to be part of the "community". I wish you all the best, and remember, there are always other ways to get your work out there *and* get some financial reward for it.
Regards Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Bruce Bergman - 07-08-2007 What's really pathetic here is that certain people just can't act like adults, and are either overwhelmed with jealousy and ego, or merely have a need to be petulant children. Sometimes I really wonder if there is some sort of brain damage in our geek-full industry; I can't otherwise imagine why people can't just get along and act like mature adults and be considerate. Really. I understand much of what was said, and I'm sure there is still a lot I don't understand. However, it's considered common practice -- literally common *courtesy* -- in the USA to send authors of published works in periodicals, free copies of the actual periodical once it is published. You write an article, long or short, and they send you at least one copy gratis, if not more. I have LONG worked in the publishing industry, and have not only written for journals and magazines, but also have written a monthly column in a major industry magazine for several years. While I DID get paid for my work, I *also* received free copies of the magazines and journals; that's expected and normal. I can't imagine what the hubbub is about simply doing something like that for Valentin. Like he said, it certainly doesn't make sense to write something and then have to pay for it -- that's idiotic. Granted, it's a different country, and maybe there are things I don't understand, but it certainly doesn't make sense to me. Valentin, you're a stud for taking the high road. I personally think someone (else) needs to get their face slapped a few times and hopefully shake out some of that arrogance and jealousy. Good luck, bruce
Edited: 8 July 2007, 1:49 a.m.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Tony Duell - 07-08-2007 As one of the people who objected (and still objects) to the arrangement between HPCC and Valentin, I feel I have to respond. Yes, I am on the HPCC committee. But when I post here, I only speak for myself. I don't claim to represent HPCC, I don't represent HPCC. And while I feel constrained to carry out club policy in as far as I asked to do so (a trivial example of this is that when the Datafile journals as posted, I would not have done anything to prevent Valentin's from being sent, even though I disagreed with the way he got membership), I do not feel I have to agree publically with everything the committee says or does. I would not remain a member of any club that expected that sort of behaviour from its members or committee members. Eric mentions that he's been unemployed for 3 months. I've been essentially unemployed for, not 3 months, not 3 years, but 10 years. I'm a self-employed consultant, but very few people consult me. And yet I've paid my membership fee every year without question. I've been a member of HPCC for 15 years now.... In that time I feel I've contributed to the club. 10 years ago, shortly after my employment contract ending, I presented that HP48 I2C interface at the HPCC conference. To get that working, to be sure it was reproducable, to do all the demonstrations cost me, I estimate, over £1000. Since then, as some of you know, I've traced out schematics of many older HP calcultors. In some cases (particularly handhelds), I borrowed the machines from trusting HPCC members. In others, I've had to buy the machines myself. I have given HPCC permission to sell CD-ROMs of said schematics, please note that I don't get a penny from this. All profits go to the club. I ahve no idea how many such CD-ROMs have been sold, but I believe it's enough to have easily covered my membership for the next 10 years or more. And producing said schematics takes time. Valentin said he spent over 100 hours on one of his articles. Well, maybe I'm a slow worker, but producing schematics for the HP9100B took not 100 hours but, I estimate, over 10000 hours. It's a very difficult machine to make sense of. You may not feel those schematics have any value. You are, of course, entitled to that view, but I don't think it's universally held. Just as views on the worth of Valentin's articles vary between people. Other people contribute to the club in other ways. Or perhaps you think that accounts keep themselves, conferences organise themselves, journals edit themselves, other articles write themselves, and so on. As far as I know, none of them get any financial reward from the club. We all pay our membership fees every year. And let me point out that while it may be common to give a free copy of the journal containing an article to each author, there is a big difference between getting Datafile and being a member of HPCC. The latter has considerably more perks.
Which brings me to my complaint. If it was HPCC policy that contributing to the club was rewarded by a discount in membership, I'd have no problem with that. If it was agreed that one form of contribution to the club, namely writing articles for Datafile, was rewarded (say 1/6th off the subscription for each article published), I'd have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is rewarding one person for his contibutions while the rest of us put time and money into the club for no financial reward.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - James M. Prange (Michigan) - 07-08-2007 Quote:Of course; when anyone posts here, I expect that, unless otherwise stated, he's speaking only for himself, and not for any organization that he happens to belong to. Quote:But as far as I know (and I am an HPCC member), actually using those perks (other than receiving Datafile) would require travelling to London, which usually isn't feasible for many members. But that's okay with me; I was aware of it before I joined. Quote:Well, I do understand your viewpoint, and of course Valentin's as well, but I don't think that this forum is an appropriate place to discuss internal HPCC matters; wouldn't it have been better to discuss this only within HPCC or published in a Datafile "member's letter"?
Regards, Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Thomas Radtke - 07-08-2007 I wonder if it isn't possible for an author outside HPCC to contribute and in return receive a voucher upon accepting the article. Sorry if I missed this information on hpcc.org.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Howard Owen - 07-08-2007 I'm sorry, but this just sounds like obsessive and childish adherence to unwritten law at the expense of the HPCC membership, and of the larger HP calculator community. And that's the best interpretation I can put on the matter. My HPCC membership will lapse at renewal time. My four page paper (with 7 pages of associated Mcode) will be published here (after HCC 2007) rather than in Datafile.
Howard
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Wayne Brown - 07-08-2007 Quote:
According to Valentin's account, all he asked for was "a free copy of the journal[s] containing [his] article[s]." Was he ever offered that instead of a free membership?
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Wayne Brown - 07-08-2007 Quote:Quote: That's the way it is for me, too. I had two reasons for joining HPCC: 1. HPCC is a close relative of PPC, and havig an HPCC membership number gives me a symbolic connection to the PPC legacy. That was, and remains, my primary reason for wanting to be a member. 2. I like having a subscription to Datafile, though I seldom read any articles that don't directly involve the HP-16C, HP-41 or HP48.
So if there are any other "perks" for a being member outside the UK, I have never noticed or taken advantage of them.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Eric Smith - 07-08-2007 Quote: I was aware of that general situation, though not the details. Had I been asked to do so, I would have been just as happy to pay your membership fee, as I certainly value your your contributions. I'm not going to debate how much value your contributions have relative to Valentin's or anyone else's. Each reader will get different value from different articles. At this point, though, I won't pay for your membership while you are taking actions that, however justifiable, are preventing Valentin from receiving the author's copy of the publication he has requested. It seems that there should be a way for HPCC to adopt a uniform policy for authors that would address both your concerns and Valentin's, and if that were to happen I would certainly be willing to pay for any remaining membership expenses for you for the indefinite future.
Quote: I understand your position, and it certainly has some merit. I generally respect people that take a principled stand on issues they consider important. But I think most of us would have been more willing to compromise on this issue, as getting a complimentary printed copy of each issue that one of his articles appears in (which is apparently what he requested) does not seem like a "financial reward" to me. Did you ask (as an individual member, not as a committee member) whether you, or other authors, could have the same deal as Valentin?
Quote: That seems like a reasonable plan. Did you propose that to the committee? Were the other committee members opposed? I respectfully request that you and the other committee members try to adopt that plan, or something similar that will address both your concerns and those of Valentin.
Eric
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Eric Smith - 07-08-2007 Quote: I suppose most of the blame for having a discussion in this forum is my fault, for posting my letter to the HPCC editor here. I did that because I knew that many HPCC members do read the forum here, and because Tony had criticized the arrangement between Valentin and HPCC in this forum on multiple occasions. I'm not trying to pin blame on anyone. I think it should be possible for HPCC to adopt policies that should satisfy both Valentin and Tony, and that helpful suggestions have already been made in this discussion thread. That is exactly what I was hoping for by posting here; if the discussion had been restricted to member letters in Datafile, it would drag on for years, rather then helping to reach a solution in a timely manner.
Eric
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Walter B - 07-08-2007 Tony, I'm aware of you weren't posting as representative of the HPCC committee. So feel free to forward my following opinion to your colleagues as one vote of a simple HPCC member: IMO it is a matter of course to send a complimentary copy of an edition of a magazine to all the authors who contributed. As far as I understood Valentin, that's all he wants. No more. So it shall be easy to settle this matter, and there shall be one problem less in this world. Regards, Walter P.S.: Ref. to your post: 1) Also I can't see any perks for me as a HPCC member on the continent besides receiving Datafile. Of course I would be glad to visit any meetings, speaking face to face with some of the famous people I know from their writings only so far, but I will certainly not travel to London just for that - too expensive in many ways. If there are more perks, please specify. 2) 1E4 ENTER 8 / 365 / 7 * 5 / results in 4.8 - so 1E4 hours correspond to almost 5 years working 8 hours a day (but weekends) on this topic. Hmmmh!?
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Forrest Switzer - 07-08-2007 There are some clubs and non-profit organizations that have established rules (be they written or just understood) that no one is to be paid in any manner for any service without the approval of the Board. It seems to me that this may be one of those cases where someone decided to give out a membership without Board approval. (Just guessing.) I belong to a club and have produced a monthly newsletter for over 600 members for approximately 5-years. The only help has been from volunteers that helped apply the labels and tape the newsletter closed. The only thing done by outside help was the copying and the posting (US Mail). I personally composed, all the content and folded every one of the 3,4, or 5 sheets in each issue. When I started that project, I did so to make sure the Club had a means to help it survive, and I understood the commitment. I didn't expect any remuneration, and I have never received any. I pay for my wife's and my memberships. The absolutely only time when a member receives a free membership is when the member has contributed someting material, like wood, steel, or something that would have cost the Club much more than the $35 yearly membership that they are given. But, in all cases that requires a Board action. MY 0.02
Forrest
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Eric Smith - 07-09-2007 Quote: As I understand it, the "free" membership for Valentin was approved by the committee, though clearly not unanimously.
I assume that HPCC holds elections in which the membership votes for the committee positions, so the final recourse for members that disapprove of committee actions is to try to vote in a new committee.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Tony Duell - 07-09-2007 Quote: Correct. It was voted on, IIRC, at the end of an AGM by the members present at the AGM. There was a majority in favour of giving Valentin free membership, but it certainly wasn't unanimous
Quote:
Indeed it does. There is an election for the committee members at the AGM every year. IIRC, any member of HPCC who has renewed their membership at least once can stand for any committee post. I believe they have to find members to propose and second them, but that is not a problem normally.
Re: Letter to the Editor of Datafile - Tony Duell - 07-09-2007 Unfortunately, Valentin seems to think I was speaking for the club when I commented on his free membership. I was not. As regards other perks from being a member, there is nothing to stop HPCC holding meetings other than in London. If there's a sufficient number of HPCC members in another place, then a 'local' meeting would seem to be a good idea.
And finally, yes, this should really be discussed at HPCC. But when I am flamed publically, I feel I have the right to respond.
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