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What to start a collection with - Vince Horvath - 06-11-2007 I currently don't own any HP calculators, but I have often really liked them and the HP quality. I have played with a few and I think I understand the RPN nature. My question is, what are some good models to start a collection with? Should I go with some of the really early models first, or should I go with something that is newer (10C series). Any help would be appreciated.
Vince
Re: What to start a collection with - db (martinez, ca.) - 06-11-2007 buy one you will use.
Re: What to start a collection with - Hal Bitton in Boise - 06-11-2007 Hi Vince... Re: What to start a collection with - Gerson W. Barbosa - 06-11-2007 Perhaps you'd like to hear some advice from the curator himself: http://www.hpmuseum.org/collect.htm#limit Regards,
Gerson.
Re: What to start a collection with - Alex L - 06-11-2007 If you're on a budget, start with what you can find. Look around. Ask around. You may get lucky. I know I did! Good luck!
-A
Re: What to start a collection with - Egan Ford - 06-11-2007 Get a few emulators to start with. Figure out what you like. Windows (all free):
Linux (all free):
Mac (all free):
50g: (Just too cool, but if you get the 50g and want to spend some $ check out http://www.hrastprogrammer.com/)
I am more of a user than a collector. IMHO as a user you cannot go wrong with a 15C or any programmable RPN/RPL for that matter. On eBay the 15C, 42S, 41CX, 71B, 67 are usually the most in demand (expensive). Think twice about the 41CX and 71B. The are expandable with many options. More so if you go the HP-IL route. Be prepared to quickly get addicted and spend a lot of cash.
Lastly I only stared collecting in 2006 when I couldn't get a decent RPN calculator. I still had my original 15C and 48GX, and I realized they would be hard to replace. But with the 50g and now the new 35S, there may be little need to collect (if you are a user). Edited: 11 June 2007, 6:53 p.m.
Re: What to start a collection with - bill platt - 06-11-2007 But one that you are curious about, but unless you want to start with a rebuild project, be careful to buy something that works.
Re: What to start a collection with - Dave Johnson - 06-11-2007 Yeah, decisions, decisions.... We all can only relate to our own background and experiences... When I began my collection I was mainly focused on what I could use and I saw a real desire for a desktop scientific and there were none outside of the old classics. I was focused on getting a 97 to sit on my desk and be a collector's item and also useful... I began to study this site, EBay, etc. for prices and quality etc. At the time I did not look forward to sending $$$$ and getting a broken POS... I found a posting on this site for an HP-45 for $100 and sent the money and waited... What I received was wrapped in a brown paper bag from a supermarket .. the HP-45, case, and battery, no box, or protective padding outside of the case. On opening it turned out to be absolutely mint condition, as if it had never been used (both case and calculator). This hooked me big time into my collection that has all bu the Hp-70. I never got a calculator in as good a condition as the first HP-45 (though close)... I was in high school when the Hp-35 came out so I have memories of all the pocket calculators during the early models. I think the LED models provide the best memories of the early development. Certainly the HP-41 was the peak of performance and capabilities before they became commodities and computational power drove to PC dominance (the market for calculators was then driven by the educational market)
Good Luck and happy shopping, hope you are lucky!
Re: What to start a collection with - kevin - 06-11-2007 I've tried a bunch of emulators on PC, Linux and Palm and one of my favorites is the P41CX emulator that runs on the Palm OS. If you happen to have a Palm (especially if you have one that will do 320x480 resolution) then P41CX is just great. It emulates the HP-41CX - and it also comes with a free emulation of the HP-41CX add-on module called the "Advantage" roms, which has a bunch of very useful programs. P41CX also emulates a printer that can be attached to an HP-41CX - results of printouts from the calculator go to the Palm OS "Memo" application where you can review them. Some of the HP-41CX modules make use of a printer - to do things like amortizations of a mortgage - it is very neat to run these in the emulator. You can find out more about P41CX here: The version you pay for includes access to a multitude of other add-on module emulations and only costs $11.00. In any event, I highly recommend running a bunch of the emulators and reviewing documentation on this site to get an idea of how the calculators work before you decide which real calculators you'd like to buy. Good Luck,
Kevin
Re: What to start a collection with - Eric Smith - 06-11-2007 Start with what you can get without spending a small fortune. Older HP calculators sometimes show up at thrift stores (though that's becoming less common), garage sales, estate sales, etc.
Re: What to start a collection with - Dan W - 06-11-2007 I agree. The 67 and 97 is a great combo. I use the 97 at home and the 67 at the office. I use the mag cards to trade data and programs. The display is much easier on over 40 eyeballs. And the printer is great for documenting programs or debugging in trace mode.
I was too young to afford any of the Classic series; but I was envious of those who could. The 11c was my first HP. Now I collect Classics. I think they are more interesting historically. And the card readers are great. Plus my other hobby is electronics, and repairing the Classics is relatively easy.
Re: What to start a collection with - Maximilian Hohmann - 06-12-2007 Hello!
My advice: Be patient, first of all! (Unless, of course, you have access to unlimited funds :-) )
Greetings, Max
Re: What to start a collection with - Howard Owen - 06-12-2007 The HP-35 is the first scientific hand held calculator. It's cool to have one, but I did without for quite awhile. I didn't take the plunge until this year, it being the 35th anniversary of the HP-35. The reason I held off is that the 35 is no great shakes as a calculator. It's not programmable, and has just a basic set of functions. to be sure, those were revolutionary in the package HP delivered in 1972. But I'm an enthusiast (what Egan calls "a user") first, and a collector second. I like to do stuff with my calculators. I also like to buy machines I used when I was starting out. for me, that meant the 41CX first. Egan has given you a very nice survey of what's available. His tastes match mine pretty closely, I've noticed. So for me, an expandable, programmable system has an edge. The 41CX matches this description, and so does the 71B. The 50G has PC connectivity, and SD card memory expansion. It is also the absolute geekiest of HP calculators, in terms of programming, and mathematical diversity. That also means that is the most challenging machine to use effectively. That's a plus for me, since I do that sort of thing for entertainment. One other machine captured my heart. That was the HP-97. I just love the look of that machine, and its ease of use. it sits on my desk, and gets almost daily use. My best advice is follow your heart, but don't leave your head out of the conversation. That's been my approach, and it has served me well.
Regards, Re: What to start a collection with - Maximilian Hohmann - 06-12-2007 Hello!
Quote:
I agree 100 percent with this statement :-) The '97 was the first hp calculator in my collection and is still one of my favourites (beside the '25 and the 71B, the only LCD calculator that I really like to use). Many years back, I even used an hp-97 at work, but that wasn't mine then. Greetings, Max
Edited: 12 June 2007, 4:49 a.m.
Re: What to start a collection with - Vince Horvath - 06-12-2007 Thanks everyone for your comments. I have seen the HP-97 and it is really cool looking. That may be a bit much for me though to start out with. I guess the one thing I kept seeing in the posts is be patient. Sounds like what my folks used to always say about not buying the first car you see, or marry the first girl you meet. My Dad does have a HP 15C I think (either that or the 11C.. one of those). I also do like the 41C series, but those look like they are quite expensive. I remember a friend of mine having one in college and I fell in love with it and wanted one badly, but just could never part with that type of money. Tell me a little more about the programing (sorry, I know that is a loaded question). What exactly can it do? Is it easy to understand? I have looked at my dad's book that came with his, and it seem's kinda tough to understand as it does not resemble C or any of those languages. Yes, it has subroutines, but it just seems a bit odd. Do the larger machines like the HP97 program more like a computer or is it sort of the same? Thanks again!
Vince
Re: What to start a collection with - Egan Ford - 06-12-2007 Most models are RPN. RPN is keystroke programming. Start here: http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpn.htm The 28/48/49/50 series introduced UserRPL. Some models support SysRPL and C. UserRPL meets most needs. UserRPL is somewhat keystroke somewhat structured (think FORTH/LISP). http://www.hpmuseum.org/rpl.htm The 71B has BASIC with optional RPN and FORTH. Assembly is also a possibility. Some examples below: Savage Benchmark in BASIC, RPN, FORTH, RPL:
BASIC (71B): 10 DESTROY ALL @ STD @ RADIANS
RPN (41CX, 71B): 01 LBL "S"
FORTH (71B): : SAVAGEF
RPL (48/49/50 series): << IMHO, you'll be most productive with the 50g--it's my everyday calculator. Multiply studies correlate screen size with productivity. I find the 71B + 41 Translator ROM (gives you RPN and FORTH) the most fun. But, almost nothing compares to the joy of getting the 15C with its limited memory and speed to solve very difficult problems (probably true for any pre-15C model). P.S.
I forgot to add. Lua is available for the 50g. If you want a C++/Java like interpreted language check out HPLua. HPLua example: a=1 Edited: 12 June 2007, 12:06 p.m.
Re: What to start a collection with - Vince Horvath - 06-12-2007 Okay... really dumb question, but why do they have these different languages? Were they seen as improvements over time. Also, what does the benchmark program do, and what does RPL stand for? Reverse Polish Language? Sorry for all the dumb questions gang.
Vince
Re: What to start a collection with - Dia C. Tran - 06-12-2007 May be you can just start with the 35s when it's available.
Re: What to start a collection with - Egan Ford - 06-12-2007 Read the links I provided above on RPN and RPL. BASIC was getting popular in the late 70s, early 80s. BASIC was my first language. I learned it on my first computer--the Apple II+. Sharp and Tandy also released 71B-like machines in 1982 (HP had the 75 in 1982). FORTH is a popular fast embedded platform (more popular in the 70s/80s). Not a bad fit for the 71B with I/O capabilities. FORTH is still used today (Got a PPC Mac? You got FORTH in the BIOS). C is obvious. Speed. C became very popular in the 80s and is very popular today. Lua. Well, its small and fast like FORTH, but is structured like C++/Java (both popular now). FORTH is more like RPN/RPL/Postscript, i.e. stack oriented. Most nubee programmers fear the stack. Use the right tool for the right job. No single tool will solve all problems efficiency. IANS, there are no universal concepts.
As for the benchmark, read: http://www.technicalc.org/tiplist/en/files/pdf/tips/tip6_50.pdf
Re: What to start a collection with - John V Nelson - 06-12-2007 I second that Dia! Egan... don't you think the 50G is a bit of overkill? I mean, I have the 48GX, and it is a very fine machine, but I think for the most part it is just overkill and very complicated to use. For pure scientific, I love my 15C, and for pure business, I love my 17BII. These were great simple to use calcs (well, more simple that the 48gx). I think outside the classroom or academic area the 50G might be just too robust. Just my thoughts.
- John
Re: What to start a collection with - Egan Ford - 06-12-2007 Quote:I was recommending it because it is the best scientific HP you can buy today new. I would never recommend the 33S. As for the 35S. Yes, I'd start there too when it releases. It will be cheaper and easier to program. For my needs I require the 50g (but I also carry my 15C). Too bad the 35S does not have a size advantage, its not much smaller than the 50g.
Edited: 12 June 2007, 2:20 p.m.
Re: What to start a collection with - Howard Owen - 06-12-2007 Quote: The early programmable models all ran some variant of RPN, or else ran BASIC. RPN programming isn't monolithic either. There is a great deal of variation in what different models of calculator can do, although they all bear a close resemblance to one another in terms of programming structure. I think this is because HP invented pocket calculator programming, and was continuing to refine that, and the calculators themselves over time. By the time they released the 41C, they had started to give some thought to backward compatibility. If you bought the card reader for the 41, you could load 67/97 programs - the previous generation - right into the 41. The calculator would translate some instructions into ordinary HP-41C code, and some into special compatibility instructions that the card reader brought along with it. The principle benefit of RPN programming is that is as close as possible to just entering the keystrokes you would use to solve a problem manually. This "keystroke programming" model is preserved today in the HP-33S, although in a flawed manner. (Search this site with Google to find out more.) The as yet unannounced HP-35S appears to be based on the 33S, but with at least one of the two major flaws of the 33S corrected. It allows "more than 800' data registers, which gives you something to do with the 32K of RAM. Whether it also allows more than 26 labels isn't known at this time We probably won't know for sure until the machine is released. That's rumored to be August 1. As far as BASIC goes, there were two small machines that ran variants of BASIC. These are the HP-75 and HP-71B. BASIC was an obvious choice for small computers back then. Most would support a BASIC variant and assembler. The 71B had those, plus Forth, the ultimate "postfix" language. As Egan mentioned, the later addition of the 41C translator added RPN to the programming repertoire, although you couldn't do keystroke programming. (You had to create your program in an editor and then convert that into something the emulator could run.) The RPL calculators were the result of a major change in HP's calculator software. This became visible to HP's customers in 1986 with the release of the HP-28C. Egan's links point you to the excellent treatment of this subject here at the museum. There was no provision for backward compatibility in these machines. But that was the standard approach in the industry in the 1980s.
Quote: Very close. It's "Reverse Polish Lisp."
Quote: This is a very deep subject, on which members of this forum have divergent views, to say the least. Superficially, RPN is about keystroke programming and RPL is about structure. they bear a spiritual relationship to one another in that a leading exponent of RPN, Dr. William Wickes, led the development of RPL. His book about RPN to RPL transition is enlightening in this regard. It's available on the Museum DVD. There is something close to a consensus that RPL is more difficult to learn, though a leading RPL expert who hangs out here disagrees. I love RPL because it has great depth and expressive power. But I had to pay several weeks of effort to learn it. I'm a systems engineer, with dozens of languages under my belt. But I'm also a guy that learned HP41 RPN as my very first programming language. Those facts are relevant to the time I took to learn RPL. I also wanted to learn RPL in some depth, which you may not have to do if you just need the calculator as a tool.
Quote: Nonsense. As you should be able to tell from the responses, we love questions of this sort. We get to rehash our opinions yet one more time for the benefit of someone that hasn't heard them 30 times already. 8)
Regards, Re: What to start a collection with - Maximilian Hohmann - 06-12-2007 Hello!
Quote:
If you ask me, both have no real highlights, at least compared to programming languages that you might be familiar with from "real" computers (like Basic, Fortran, C or Java - some of them with user-friendly intuitive interfaces like MS Visual Basic, full-screen colour-coded editors and debuggers).
Greetings, Max
Re: What to start a collection with - Josh - 06-12-2007 Is there a good book that explains RPL?
Re: What to start a collection with - Hal Bitton in Boise - 06-12-2007
Quote:The 97 (and all the classics) are keystroke programmable. Essentially, if you can run the calculator well enough manually to solve your problem, you can do keystroke programming. There is no language ar syntax to worry about. To record a program, you just use the same keystrokes you would use to solve the problem manually, and the calculator just records them into program memory. Augmenting this simple programming logic was conditional branching, which allowed the calculator to make comparisons and jump to different program steps based on the results of those comparisons. The classics had eight conditional branch tests: greater than, less than, equal to, not equal to, which could be used to compare the x register to the y register, or the x register to zero. This of course increased the programming power dramatically, allowing iterative loops to be implemented. Since you can take right off writing programs, keystroke programming quite a lot of fun, and you can write some pretty capable subroutines. This forum is frequented by some wizards in keystroke programming, so I'm sure I'm not alone in my affinity for it. Best Regards, Hal Re: What to start a collection with - Howard Owen - 06-12-2007
The There are books available for programming RPL, mostly on the HP48. But the 50g is close enough - nearly identical in RPL syntax and structure - so that the books are still useful with today's high end calculators. Samson Cables still carries many of these books. You can sometimes find the same titles on eBay for less, but the supply is spotty. I have Graphics on the HP48G/GX and An Easy Course in Programming the HP48G/GX I like the former more than the latter, but that may be because I knew most of what the second book had to offer by the time I got my hands on it, whereas I was ignorant of 48G graphics. The User RPL graphics are nearly identical to the implementation on the 50g, allowing for the larger screen on the newer machine.
Regards, Re: What to start a collection with - Howard Owen - 06-13-2007 Quote: It's true that neither of these languages are remotely similar to standard 3rd, 4th Web 1.0 or Web 2.0 generation programming languages. But others find they can wrap their minds around one, the other or both programming systems. I admit, I had a lot of difficulty in learning RPL. (I've had extended discussions about this on this forum. Search with Google if you are interested.) But I finally cracked that nut. But my education and career experience is in computer systems and networking, though nowhere near at the PHD level. I think this backround helped a lot with my struggles with RPL. On the RPN side, it sounds to me like you were trying to program one of the non-printing LED models and/or a 10, 12, 11, or 15C. Those have no alphanumeric capability, and you have to decode numeric representations of the keystrokes in order to read the "source code." The coding used keystroke "coordinates." On the HP-67 for example, the STO key is in the third row and the third column, so its coordinate is 3,3. Decoding those numbers is feasible, but difficult, so I can understand your frustration at trying to program in that environment. But I first learned RPN keystroke programming on the HP41C. This calculator was the first to include nearly full alphanumeric capability. (Not all the lower case letters were available, at first.) This allowed program listings to be viewed one line at a time in the calculator's display, and the commands had names instead of keystroke coordinates. This made it more feasible, but still not ideal, to debug a program on the calculator. And yes, I frequently resorted to paper and pencil to grasp what was going on with my code, or someone else's. But you know, some allowance has to be made for the fact that those calculators embody 1970s and 1980s technology. The comparison that makes sense for the 41C is with Applesoft BASIC, not Java or Visual BASIC. (Gods of computing, please forgive me for mentioning VB and Java in the same sentence. Aak! I did it again!)
Anyhow, I hope you take this in the spirit of mutual understanding that it is offered in. Two equally smart people can disagree about what is difficult and what is easy in a programming language, or indeed, on a whole host of other issues.
Regards, Re: What to start a collection with - Karl Schneider - 06-13-2007 Many sound suggestions were given in this thread. One statement by Egan compels a follow-up:
Quote: There's a good reason for that: These are among the most impressive models ever made by HP. My list of "best" models (for one reason or another): HP-67/97, HP-41CX, HP-15C, HP-71B, HP-42S, HP-17BII, HP-32SII, HP-48GX My list of "most distinctive" models (for one reason or another): HP-34C, HP-16C, HP-27S, HP-28S Most of the above are somewhat expensive (US$150+) on eBay, but a few (e.g., HP-17BII, HP-28S) are more affordable. -- KS
Re: What to start a collection with - Ren - 06-13-2007 with... A. Lots of money B. Lots of Luck C. Lots of Patience D. Lots of help from this folks in this forum E. Understanding spouse F. All of the above Ren
dona nobis pacem
Re: What to start a collection with - Giancarlo (Italy) - 06-13-2007 Hi Ren.
Quote: Yes, you got the real point o' mine... :-) Best regards. Giancarlo UserRPL Savage benchmarks - James M. Prange (Michigan) - 06-13-2007 Quote:Certain things about the above caught my eye, and I decided to "improve" on it.
downloaded to any 48 or 49 series, but in case you prefer to key it in, "\<<" and "\>>" represent the UserRPL program delimiters, "\v/" represents the symbol for the square root command, and "\->" represents the right arrow character. Don't bother keying in the trailing "decimal points", but for the 49 series, enter this program in "approximate" mode. Anything starting with an "@" character through the next "@" character or the end of the line, whichever comes first, is a comment; don't bother keying in any comments. %%HP: T(3)F(.);The 28 series doesn't have a built-in TICKS commands, any tagged object capability, its RND command works differently, and the system flags differ from the 48/49 series, so the above program won't work on them.
Depending on the ROM version, one of the following can be used as
The 28C must be in HEX binary display mode for these SYSEVAL Model 28C ROM version 1BB: #123E SYSEVALAs far as I know, these were the only ROM versions ever released for the 28 series.
To find the ROM version of a 28C, with the calculator's binary
I'll use a character string to "tag" the timing values. The ":" Instead of 3 RND, I'll use 3 FIX RND. Last arguments disabling is forced by 31 CF.
Of course you can't transfer anything to a 28 series, but I choose @ "Savage benchmark" for 28 series.All of the RPL models always return the value 2499.99948647 for the above programs.
My timings, with 10 trials for each model, and with last stack and 28C ROM version 1BB:Regards, James Re: What to start a collection with - Massimo Gnerucci (Italy) - 06-13-2007 Of course you're not alone, Giancarlo... Re: What to start a collection with - Les Wright - 06-13-2007 I recommend the 9825 with the hard-to-find optional belt clip.
Les
Re: UserRPL Savage benchmarks - Egan Ford - 06-13-2007 Quote:Yes, they could all be improved. Completeness and thoroughness should not be overlook. Re: What to start a collection with - Dave Shaffer (Arizona) - 06-13-2007 "I recommend the 9825 with the hard-to-find optional belt clip."
You must have been one of those guys in college who wore his 20" slide rule on his belt, too!?!?
Re: What to start a collection with - Dia C. Tran - 06-13-2007 I used to have 9825B but without the "Hard to find belt clip" nor that I have a belt that can handle such a monster.
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