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No, not the kind you are thinking about.

Anyway, as I've been investigating keyboards and users more and more since I'll now be directly impacted by any good or bad keyboard we make (don't be ridiculous and infer stuff here - I am just musing as I educate myself about consumers and competition) I've been kind of surprised as I've talked with people about different keyboards.

For example, I've heard from many people that use little chiclet keys on phones how annoyed they are at the HP keyboards. I've often heard how they are "tiring to press","slow" and so on.

The 20b is a good example of this. If you put it side by side with pretty much any other calculator in the 30$US range, it matches up perfectly well. The internals are identical. Sure if you compare it to a BA2prof, or a 35s it sucks, but some people honestly seem to hate rotate&click keys.

I had someone trade me back a 30b for a 20 because they "liked the color better, but the keyboard was too hard to press". This same person much prefers anything that has a solid rubber mat of keys like you get on those nasty 50 cent calcs . . . yuk!

It sure seems to me more and more as I listen to end users, that it completely depends on what you use daily. If you are used to the way a cell phone feels, a lot don't seem to recognize that a 'quality HP keyboard' (lets not get into that old vs new debate, we all here know the truth) is quality and they don't like it.

Has anyone else run into other complaints like this from users/students? I sure seem to have been running into plenty of people that have a lot of complaints against the 'good' keyboards I ask them to try. Is it truly just a matter of what you are used to?

TW

Tim,

I prefer old HP keyboards but have no problems with Casio, Sharp, and most TI calculators.

I took the 20b without any expectations to hand, immediately noticing that entries failed that worked on any Casio I tried. Even the 30s does not have any problems. It's probably the shape of the keys that leads to this problem. You simply don't know where to press it ;-).

However, the 20b is one of very few calculators I know of where I have to be extremely careful about entering numbers. It is an outstanding bad design in this respect.

Thomas

Tim,

Thx. to you and HP taking care of and recognizing the importance of keyboard "quality".

Let me propose, that instead of doing customer surveys with people today not having experienced "good old engineering" quality at least once in their lives, you might instead thrive to take (as an example) at least the keyboard quality of Pioneers as a yardstick.

(Even my 10b - ID912 ... has better keyboard quality than most of the other makes & brands - not talking of 17bII's and earlier models ... - but we shouldn't start these rants ;-)) )

More experienced users than me would be able to point to the manufacturing dates which can serve as a timemark - after which quality deterioated.

Best regards,

Peter A. Gebhardt

Edited: 22 Jan 2010, 4:10 a.m.

Hi Tim,

I wonder how much of the problems with the keyboards these days is software and not hardware. When keys don't register, is it because the electrical contact wasn't made, or because the user was pressing too fast and overran the (zero length?) buffer? I personally suspect that a lot of the problems HP has with keyboards is the latter.

Here's another thought: would people care about the tactile feedback if the keypress always registered? How many complaints that say "I don't like the keyboard" are really saying "it didn't register the keys I pressed?"

The best way to find out about this stuff is to get real-time feedback from potential customers. That means setting up a usability lab or taking it on the road to schools. If you haven't already, I strongly encourage you to read "Don't Make Me Think" by Steve Krug. It's about website usability but applies equally to calculators. The gist is that the makers of the product are uniquely UNQUALIFIED to judge its usability, but getting good data from real-world users isn't that hard.

Finally, let me make a plug for User mode improvements. Assignable keys are of little use when you can't easily tell which keys are assigned to which functions. We need keyboard overlays and/or keys that display their function when held down (like the 41 did).

Thanks for asking and for caring.

Dave

I like click keyboards - HP quality click keyboards. Can't stand the soft touch chicklet types. But my first experiences were on an HP25c and 11c, both of which are going strong today (well not the 25c - has been retired for a while). I had an original TI SR-50 which also had click keys, and wasn't bad while it lasted, but the keyboard died after a few years (bouncing key input). I did buy a newer TI 30XIIS and can't stand it - misses keystrokes every time I use it. Will throw it on the floor and stomp on it one of these days! I also bought a 35s when they first came out. Not too bad, but gets discouraging to see all the discussion of problems with it, and no hint that HP is ever going to respond. Wouldn't mind so much if HP does a 30b scientific - the 35s might just get left out on the desk until it disappears.

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Here's another thought: would people care about the tactile feedback if the keypress always registered? How many complaints that say "I don't like the keyboard" are really saying "it didn't register the keys I pressed?"
Exactly. On my 20b, I can carefully press any key in a way that I receive a tactile feedback (from the rubber-dome, I suspect) but get nothing on the LCD. Pressing harder, the key registers. Same with one key on my 35s. Now, *that* is really disturbing.

Some thoughts on various keyboards:

Pioneers - Very nice feel and actuation, and I've never had any issues with these. Even my heavily worn 32sii with some keys that have broken free from the hinges works quite well.

12c (manufactured around 2002) - Very nice feel overall, though it seems a bit cramped somehow. The Enter key feels like it needs a little too much force to press.

28c, 28s, 19bii, etc - Too much key travel, and too stiff. The raised edge around the right half makes it difficult to press the bottom row of keys with one's thumb.

48sx - Just about perfect.

48gx - Like the 48sx, but the keys require a bit less force to press. Some of these have a cheaper feel than the 48sx.

49g - Let's just forget this ever happened.

50g - Too stiff for my liking. And yet they still feel a bit mushy somehow. I've also had weird issues with keys I haven't even pressed being actuated. I'll be typing some numbers, and suddenly the calculator thinks I've hit TAN or something. Weird. Also, the cursor keys are still MUCH too stiff.

35s - Very nice feel, though the keys have a bit of side-to-side wobble. Mechanically, they're great, but I'm sure everyone knows the issues with missed key-presses.

Personally, I find the TI-style keys more tiring to use. You have to be much more deliberate to make sure you press the key squarely. I can type much more quickly (and accurately) on my 48sx than on my TI-86. Also, the cheaper TIs, like the 36X, have lots of trouble with missed keystrokes if you type quickly.

First, this really has nothing whatsoever to do with anything within HP, policies, ongoing reasearch, blah blah blah, but is just me musing in my own spare time as I contemplate things. I really don't want anyone to read more into this than is really there. . .

I know the frustration of missing keys, but that really isn't the direction I was going with this. Nor is quality which we all *truthfully* know will never be back to how it was before. Consumer products simply aren't build like professional tools.

I have set down a 15c, 20s, 48 and 1-2 other 'good keyboards' in front of people. They sit and click them and complain about how hard they are to push and tire out their fingers. They are also 'loud' and 'slow' and 'push too hard on your fingers' and probably a few more negative things I've heard I am forgetting.

I have seen sentiments like this expressed online in product reviews for things like the 10bII and 50g where there has been no mention of missing keys or anything like that. Rather, it seems to me that there is a rising group of people who truthfully dislike keys that give any sort of feedback and they do like cellphone keys.

People who used and grew up on older HP keyboards complain to no end that they aren't good, but those just being introduced often are more likely to complain that it isn't a cell phone. :-(

TW

Tim,

despite your disclaimer - at least you (hopefully) do have access to the "inner circle" of the calculator division ;-))

Otherwise it would indeed be a pity, if ALL HP calculators are imagined as "consumer goods" by top HP decision makers ...

Best regards,

Peter A. Gebhardt

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I know the frustration of missing keys, but that really isn't the direction I was going with this. Nor is quality which we all *truthfully* know will never be back to how it was before. Consumer products simply aren't build like professional tools.

So there you have it, folks: You can forget about HP ever responding to our comments about producing a truly quality calculator again. Apparently they are just not interested. But then, some of you with bean counter experience have been telling us that all along.

But Tim, you can see that, in spite of your protestations about "not going there", folks here still do, because it's an issue that remains important to them.

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...it seems to me that there is a rising group of people who truthfully dislike keys that give any sort of feedback and they do like cellphone keys.

People who used and grew up on older HP keyboards complain to no end that they aren't good, but those just being introduced often are more likely to complain that it isn't a cell phone. :-(


I must be out of he loop. every cell phone I have owned has had tactile feedback keys.

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Nor is quality which we all *truthfully* know will never be back to how it was before.
Please excuse my ignorance, Tim. What exactly was so expensive with Pioneer calculator keyboards?

This kind of question comes up over and over. Those with bean counter experience tell us that producing a keyboard like the Pioneers would cost $___ more per calculator, so it won't happen.

The rest of up respond, "So what? We would gladly pay $___ more to get a truly useful tool."

But from Tim's comments, it seems the bean counters are correct.

Sorry, Tim, I just can't resist.

Let me add to your list:

Spices with non-soldered keyboards - terrible

Spices with soldered keyboards - very good

A tutorial on Cost-Volume-Profit analysis (which I taught for years) would be useful at this point.

Raise the price $10. We techies here (myself included) by an extra 10K units. We are all happy.

By price being raised $10, total demand drops by 50K units.

Result: Less overall revenue and higher costs of production. Stock price goes down. Management and shareholders are unhappy. Management is fired. Division is sold to a company in Mongolia who replaces units with gummy bear keys. Make a fortune.

Techies here are unhappy. Blah blah.

That's how things like this are often decided.

Economic analysis is fairly rigorous, as my graduate degree in it reminds me.

P.S. These are made up numbers but they represent the issue.

Hi folks,

I used quite daily for over twenty years a CASIO fx-602P I still have in very good condition before starting to collect HPs that made me fascinated in my youth, before I had money enough to buy some, and also before their prices decreased enough!
What I can say is that, even if the keyboard of this Casio don't give any special feedback at key strokes, I'm pretty sure I never miss any key stroke nor had any bouncing key, like I have on a TI-58C I bought a few years ago.
More to say, as the effort to press the keys is less important, I can type quicker on this kind of keyboard than on an HP one with rotate-and-click principle. Perhaps am I afraid to break something on my HPs keyboards when typing as fast as on my Casio? It may be part of the reason, but not totally. I keep thinking HP keyboards are a little bit slower, due to this sligtly greater effort they need.
That beeing said, I agree with you on the point of the good feeling they give to the user. One really have the impression of a professional device when using an HP.
One last thing: let's admit there's no perfect keyboard, just for the reason that even the best we, HP fans, would declare as so, could be hated by someone else. One evidence of this is the perpetual evolution of HP keyboards. Even if they keep the "rotate-and-click", the shape of the keys, the effort to press and the travel of the keys continuously change, model after model.

Speaking of keyboards, I type this text on the tactile keyboard of my iPod: no movement of keys at all, as there are no physical keys, just the elasticity of the end of my finger, and that works! The click and the enlarged symbol of each key pressed gives the user the confirmation his entry has been registered, if ever needed.
Let's live with today's tools, but also not forget good old ones :-)

Kind regards, J.-M.

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Raise the price $10.
That was my point. Where's this kind of money in pioneer keyboards? I'd like to understand why e.g. 20b keys aren't hinged (that's a few gramm of plastic and a few minutes of drawing in Catia) and why they sit on rubber domes instead of plastic domes. Is there really more than a $1 difference?

I have a different theory. Price is not calculated so that it reflects the product, but to reflect what the target audience is willing to pay. Then the fun starts by cutting costs wherever possible to maximize profit. So, the argument "I'm willing to pay a dollar more" is completely invalid. The company already takes the estimated maximum. Right?

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So there you have it, folks: You can forget about HP ever responding to our comments about producing a truly quality calculator again. Apparently they are just not interested. But then, some of you with bean counter experience have been telling us that all along.

Gee, thanks for putting things in my mouth that were not being said. Really classy.

Unfortunately it is a reality that **all modern corporations** aren't interested in the .5% of customers. They are interested in the 99.5% (numbers pulled out of my bum there). That whole 'volume production' thing.

That is why a specialized company can sell a US$1000 "acoustically tuned volume knob made out of some rare African wood" to a small group of people and be successful.

This is why smaller niche markets can be successfully exploited by smaller companies.

It is basic economics and modern business.

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But Tim, you can see that, in spite of your protestations about "not going there", folks here still do, because it's an issue that remains important to them.

And it is important to me and everyone else that builds the things, but reality is reality when dealing with economics. Please see Gene's comment below.

The whole point of my comment was that it has surprised me how there are so many people now that don't seem to recognize a quality keyboard ala classic HPs and *don't like them*. That is what is so surprising to me.

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I must be out of he loop. every cell phone I have owned has had tactile feedback keys.

So you would be happy if HP made a calculator with a cell phone keyboard? Every time I've asked any calculator nut regarding that they respond just as I do, which is with disgust.

TW

Nice thoughts.

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I keep thinking HP keyboards are a little bit slower, due to this sligtly greater effort they need. That beeing said, I agree with you on the point of the good feeling they give to the user.

Have you ever had the experience of letting someone try one of your units and tell you how much they hate the feedback? :-(

TW

I'd imagine that the increase in cost lies in the mechanics of the keyboard, not in the materials. Adding in the hinges would increase the complexity of manufacture - HP would need to add a step or more into the process and purchase and program robots to perform those additional operations. All factors that add to the cost.

Caveat: when I say imagine, I mean it! Nothing I've written above is based on anything other than idle speculation on my part.

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A tutorial on Cost-Volume-Profit analysis (which I taught for years) would be useful at this point....

That's how things like this are often decided.


OK, thanks for illustrating what I was referring to when I said "Those with bean counter experience tell us that producing a keyboard like the Pioneers would cost $___ more per calculator, so it won't happen."

Now what do you think of this? HP's PDF brochures available on their website refer to "HP quality". So they are marketing something that's not really there and they don't expect people to pay for it anyway? For the moment, forget the financial calculators. Who is the target market for the 35s? General consumers? Is it not scientists and engineers? People who need a reliable product, no?

Did not the same "rules" of Cost-Volume-Profit analysis also apply when the Pioneers were made? (Or any other HP era). Or did they just now start to apply?

I just don't buy this argument.

I will provide an anecdote. Recently I hired a new field surveyor (technician, not professional, just as a reference point). I noticed he had both a 48gx and 35s in his kit. When I asked him about the 35s, he replied, "it's OK for a cheapie calculator". Is that the reputation HP is trying to maintain?

End of rant.

Hi Tim,

I agree with you about small vs large companies.

Perhaps an easy way to see this in action is to look at:

1. HP Market Capitalization in 1973 or so,

2. HP Market Capitalization now.

Even inflation adjusted, I think you'll find something in the orders of magnitude there--in other words to your point, HP was a "small company" when it developed the 35. It is no longer small.

Edited: 22 Jan 2010, 1:58 p.m.

Who is the target market for the 35s? General consumers? Is it not scientists and engineers? People who need a reliable product, no?


GENE: Maybe, maybe not. I'm not privy to that. It may well be test-takers, for all I know. They may be unwilling to pay $90 for an item when substitutes are available for less. I don't know how many of them are willing to pay the CURRENT HP 35s price, so it is difficult to know what a price increase of $X would do. But it is a pretty firm law of economics that when price goes up, demand goes down.


Did not the same "rules" of Cost-Volume-Profit analysis also apply when the Pioneers were made? (Or any other HP era). Or did they just now start to apply?


GENE: It has to do with another principle of economics in that case...the availability of substitutes. Pretty firm ground there as well. More substitutes today. Less demand at the same constant dollar price. etc.


I just don't buy this argument.


GENE: Then I would politely suggest you enroll in an economics course and express those arguments with the experts in the field. I'm really not trying to be ugly here, so don't take it that way, but I believe these arguments are close to the truth.


I will provide an anecdote. Recently I hired a new field surveyor (technician, not professional, just as a reference point). I noticed he had both a 48gx and 35s in his kit. When I asked him about the 35s, he replied, "it's OK for a cheapie calculator". Is that the reputation HP is trying to maintain?


GENE: If it were, I would guess they would have exited the market a long time ago. Are there target markets where such qualities are treasured / demanded? Sure, you've mentioned one and our group here is another. So, yes, it is a different world, a different environment and a different company. No use denying that. Fortunately, we have choices. We can buy TI. We can buy Casio. We can buy HP and lament the differences between a product costing $100 in todays dollars vs. a product from 20 years ago costing $300 in todays dollars.

End of rant.

And, the raise the price $10 would occur because of the supply chain.

Totally made up example here having nothing to do with any private information...

If I make a product costing $5. The distributor MAY buy it for $8 who sells it to a retailer for $16. They then sell it for $39.99.

If my costs go up to $6, the ending MSRP may go up to $44.99 because of that assuming the end retailer will even CARRY the product any more.

A major retailer may well say ... this product must be at $39.99 or less. I don't care what kind of improvements you have put into it, the public won't buy it. The problem is that it doesn't matter if the retailer is sniffing glue or not, they rule the world. What are your options then? Sell online only through your own website? Perhaps. Volume would be a lot less than using retailers/distributors.

Tough world out there. Not enough customers seem willing to pay premium prices...unless they are Apple customers, of course. ;-)

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Tough world out there. Not enough customers seem willing to pay premium prices...unless they are Apple customers, of course. ;-)

Yeah, but Apple can actually take the money because they deliver high end products in terms of quality. You see: It pays! ;^)

Yes, I got your arguments. What's left is some dissapointment because the niche I'm in isn't served anymore. Buying an HP means an option for RPN. No more and no less. That's not enough at some point when the firmware gets below a certain standard like with the 35s.

Thanks anyway for making your points clear.

Don't you target mainly apple customers. . .

Hmmmm. :-D

TW

Keep in mind that not only do I not work or speak for HP, I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night either.

Well, 35s firmware aside, I would say there are more reasons for HP than just RPN.

I've picked up and used a lot of TI models, and dislike the experience intensely. If you haven't used a TI BAII Plus in a while, find one and try a problem on it for a change. Yuk.

Something else to think about is not just where HP was in the 1970s, but perhaps where they were just 10 years ago.

Rubber keys.

FHB* colored machines.

then machines that were hollow and clicked so loudly they woke the neighbors up and missed keys 80% of the time.

Compared to where they were 10 years ago, I believe there have been great improvements in quality. More to go? Sure, but the trajectory seems to be up from a long dive leading to the FHB* machine.

* Frozen Hamster Butt ... google it on comp.sys.hp48

I do have to ask a dumb question. If the business economics is such big deal regarding whether to spend the pennies on "quality improvements" or not, I'm have a real hard time understanding if HP is serious about the calculator business at all, because I DON'T SEE THEM ANYWHERE! TI, Casio, and Sharp calculators are everywhere. MAYBE, I'll see a 12c or business calc. in an office supply store.

Where does HP sell it's cheaper calculators, even its algebraic models? The ONLY place I ever see them is online.

Has HP just lost the market so entirely that stores are not willing to use shelf space for them anymore? (<--<< this is the dumb question, perhaps...)

(I haven't set foot into a university bookstore for a hundred years - do they still sell HP there?)

When the 33S came out, they were originally released on Amazon, and Walmart. In fact perhaps Walmart even got before Amazon--I can't remember exactly any more. They continued to be offered at Walmart for quite some time--though there was a long period where they were *sold out* from Walmart. Eventually they all got marked down to $39.87 or less and then gone. I remember this being around the time the 35S was coming out.

I can't remember whether the 35S was at Walmart. I bought mine early on wherever I got it--complete with zip case and printed manual.

Tim, I like the feel of the 35s keyboard very much. The keys are not too hard or soft to push and seem to register when struck at various angles. The 50g keys are good but harder to push than the 35s.


Regards,


John

..and also to the point, Apple has a ridiculously small market share.

Page 65 of Wlodek's A Guide to HP Handheld Calculators and Computers (Fifth Edition, HHC 2007 Printing) states"

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... The layout of keyboards often led to heated discussions in the calculator design teams -- members of the teams sometimes referred to these discussions as "keyboard wars"!

As this thread illustrates the HP user community can easily be instigated to wage one more "war" on keyboad feel. Don't you guys EVER get tired of the endless ranting?

I've been searching everywhere here in Kuwait for a place to buy an hp calculator with no luck. hp printers... sure, they're everywhere. So are computers, screens, ...etc., even the mighty Z800 workstation. Not calculators though. In comparison, TI calcs are carried by all major office supplies stores while Casio cals are short of being peddled at street corners.

I have the authority if I choose to exercise it to enforce an NCEES-like calculator restriction upon a class of Electrical Circuits Principles here at Kuwait University (800-900 students annually). I'm hesitant to do so however in the absence of the worthiest of that short list (35s) from the local market.

For the record, my 15c was bought locally 25 years ago.

... but everyone talks about what Apple makes.

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As this thread illustrates the HP user community can easily be instigated to wage one more "war" on keyboad feel. Don't you guys EVER get tired of the endless ranting?

I guess that's a deliberate pejoration for 'arguing cusomer interests'. Capitalism is not about Hobson's choice. That would be communism. Take or leave what we offer doesn't really work when there's competition.

Then HP has really lost that which set them apart in the early years.

They rose to the challenge:

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After the HP 9100 was demonstrated to Bill Hewlett he suggested that they should make one in one tenth the volume, ten times as fast and at one tenth the cost.

And for the HP35:
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He later reduced his suggested volume even further to "shirt pocket-sized".

If they (HP) cannot rise to the challenge to make a keyboard at a price that will keep the 50k cheapskates happy AND the quality that keeps the the 10k techies happy, then they have lost (become too big for?) the magic that made them great in the first place. Maybe they didn't always meet those challenges fully (or sometimes cheated a bit), but they managed to produce a products that made users happy.

Of course if HP has become too big to care for techie markets and wishes to concentrate on the cheap and nasty market sector, they'll make way for products like BWK. And they will continue to lose that other part of the magic that made them great - coming out with cutting edge products. On the handheld side, perhaps Casio is taking that over with the Classpad 300 series? (Wasn't the cancelled Expander something in that line?)

Note: qoutes are from HP Museum's "HP 9100A/B" page.

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(Wasn't the cancelled Expander something in that line?)
If you have a PDA running WinCE or an emulator, you're in to try the free MathExpander software. It's strictly educational and was never developed beyond a point without obvious bugs. But the geometry module is a nice thing to play with for an hour or two ;-).

About the 'old HP': Effectively, serious calculator development stopped after the Pioneers. Why did that happen? Everyone agrees that e.g. the 42S was a great machine. Obviously, it didn't sell to match the production costs. Now, where's the expected reward to try it again?

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Then I would politely suggest you enroll in an economics course and express those arguments with the experts in the field. I'm really not trying to be ugly here, so don't take it that way, but I believe these arguments are close to the truth.

Perhaps being a little ugly, but why would I want to express my arguments to "experts" in an academic setting? I'm talking the real-world of professional who need professional-quality tools for their work. That may be why we have the inferior HP we have today: too many marketing and production cost analysis "experts" calling the shots.

It about leadership. There are many anecdotes existing about how Bill Hewlett went against the experts advice during the early calculator years. And lest you argue that the times are different now, that the age of cheap consumer electronics means we will never return to the type of product that defined HP, well let me point out that the times are always changing, and in recent years there is a trend to return to high-quality products in many fields. I think what many of us have been asking HP for is the leadership to dare to do this again for professional calculators.

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Don't you guys EVER get tired of the endless ranting?

No.

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Don't you guys EVER get tired of the endless ranting?

YES (for reasons of elementary logic d;-))

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I think what many of us have been asking HP for is the leadership to dare to do this again for professional calculators.

I feel that one of the questions we're asking is whether the current HP calculator group leadership cares enough, sees *some* demand, and has the guts to go after it. They'd honestly have to be ready for the possibility that the sales might not cover their costs and that if not, hopefully it doesn't "tank" the group. There are honest ways to try for that not to happen, however, like some clever marketing to the professionals. Then, if they do a great machine, promote it to the max and it only sells a thousand units, they will at least have fought the honorable fight.

That's the spirit of Samurai d|-)

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GENE: Maybe, maybe not. I'm not privy to that. It may well be test-takers, for all I know. They may be unwilling to pay $90 for an item when substitutes are available for less. I don't know how many of them are willing to pay the CURRENT HP 35s price, so it is difficult to know what a price increase of $X would do. But it is a pretty firm law of economics that when price goes up, demand goes down.

The HP-35S is sold in one place in the city (Toronto) for 83$. A HP-39G sits on the same shelf beside it for 17$ more.

Dimitri